Hope for the future of fps?


(Shinjorai) #1

Just thinking about the sheer amount of customization in this game and how varied that should make every single map you play. Much more than just weapon choice, there’s choice of color, choice of abilities, choice of body type, choice of class, choice of faction. That’s a lot of choice, more so than in any other shooter to date, at least that i’m aware of. If SD is able to pull this off and it hits rave reviews which it very well could, how do you think this will affect the future of FPS games?

Im really hopeful that this will become a growing trend with shooters at least to some extent, and games focus more on content than graphics. It seems like in the past five years gameplay and depth has taken a backseat to a pretty picture. Not that there hasn’t been any good gameplay but, and maybe its just me, but it seems to have really went downhill.

I was curious, i know i see a lot of you here on these forums every time i come here and you all seem to be very intelligent people for the most part. I guess a lot more than most other game communities of this type ive visited in the past. I was just wondering what were some features of brink you were looking forward to the most and why? Also what your gaming background was? Meaning what games you really grew to love in the past. Doesn’t have to be a First Person Shooter or even a Third person shooter can be roleplaying games etc. Just curious what type of gamers are going to be playing this game the most. Not that you can really categorize us into preset groups but hell im bored and i was wondering lol.

10 DAYS TILL RELEASE! cant wait, games gonna be epic.


(riptide) #2

[QUOTE=Shinjorai;286625]
Im really hopeful that this will become a growing trend with shooters at least to some extent, and games focus more on content than graphics. It seems like in the past five years gameplay and depth has taken a backseat to a pretty picture. Not that there hasn’t been any good gameplay but, and maybe its just me, but it seems to have really went downhill.

10 DAYS TILL RELEASE! cant wait, games gonna be epic.[/QUOTE]

Just so you know it’s not a growing trend… it’s always been that way :(there are very few games ever focused on game play… unless of course you’re talking about a Wii. Most publishers talk about features and show a pretty picture because that is what sells.

Also it’s 9 days until release :stuck_out_tongue:


(Linsolv) #3

For me, the only necessary selling point is the objective wheel.

Admittedly, my excitement for it is a LITTLE less now that I really understand it, but I think it’s probably the best feature in the game. A dynamic AI that creates side-missions for you on the fly? Where do I sign?


(riptide) #4

[QUOTE=Linsolv;286628]For me, the only necessary selling point is the objective wheel.

Admittedly, my excitement for it is a LITTLE less now that I really understand it, but I think it’s probably the best feature in the game. A dynamic AI that creates side-missions for you on the fly? Where do I sign?[/QUOTE]

A little off topic but I hope you can accept objectives without the wheel.


(H0RSE) #5

You can just tap the obj wheel button, and the game will automatically assign you the best objective, based on location, class, etc.

If you are talking about not using it all, not even how I just described, then no. You cannot accept them without the wheel, but you can still complete them.


(Shinjorai) #6

[QUOTE=riptide;286626]Just so you know it’s not a growing trend… it’s always been that way :(there are very few games ever focused on game play… unless of course you’re talking about a Wii. Most publishers talk about features and show a pretty picture because that is what sells.

Also it’s 9 days until release :P[/QUOTE]

lol ure right 9 days my bad, half asleep atm. Was mainly talking about pc games, i got a ps3 but dont really touch it. I think quakewars focused on gameplay quite a bit, i loved that game. still do. I just miss fun games i guess, seems like all the games now adays like cod etc just serve to piss me off lol. I dont ever take these games seriously and always play for fun but sometimes it does get frustrating getting shot in the face with a rocket in bad company 2 or something over and over or getting shot halfway across the map with a shotgun. Which reminds me, i wonder what the aggrivating parts of brink will be. Every game has them, those little annoyances. Like people that do nothing but vehicle whore in bad company 2, shotguns and rockets, knifers in COD, last stand and tubes. snipers in a plethora of different games. Had a friend of mine say he vowed to always find the gheyest weapons possible in any game and only use those. He was kindve joking but sad thing is theres a ton of players that use that method. Im so looking forward to brink im even looking forward to finding out what the annoying parts will be haha.


(Diablo85) #7

Since the hardware of the console are starting to become outdated, I think the focus will be on gameplay the next view years. The hardware won’t be able to handle better graphics and the next generation consoles are still 3 years away.


(tokamak) #8

Extreme asymmetry is what I want to see in shooters. I’ve some ideas myself and I’m sure it’s going to work.


(crazyfoolish) #9

Are you talking about multiplayer?
For example a multiplayer zombie game where a few players play as survivors and a few dozen others play as the zombies.


(tokamak) #10

Yes Left4dead2 is a good example of highly asymmetrical teams, ETQW is less asymmetrical and so far Giants Citizen Kabuto has the highest asymmetry that I know of.

There’s just something incredibly compelling about having your own strengths and weakness differ vastly from the opponent. Players may have similar goals, but their approach is completely different which means they have different subgoals and interests within a game. It ends up in a struggle for their own tactical high ground. It means that holding your own perfection position yourself is not enough, you also need to deny your opponent from reaching the best conditions.

Anyway, there’s lots of ways to go about it and I think my idea has two teams being intrinsically different from each other. Here’s to hoping that the Rage engine is accessible enough to get some things executed.


(LyndonL) #11

FPS MMO with persistent worlds.

And it’s happening \o/


(tokamak) #12

ET reall fits the MMO world. There could be objective hubs littered across the world, those who take them first become the owners (and they generate resources for weapons, vehicles whatever) and the other factions need to attack them in an objective style match.

It could even be more dynamic by letting players form enterprises, build their own projects in the middle of nowhere, construct prefabs in any composition they like before it becomes a fully functioning structure that gives profit and needs to be defended.

But that’s all future-talk. We’re not there yet but I’m sure that it’s going to be addictive as hell once we get there. A sandbox MMO FPS with semi-player-generated content.


(madoule) #13

funny you mention it tokamak, i sort of dreamed up similar stuff.
however tons of these tiny aspects already have been done. did you for instance play the operation flashpoint mod, where you can build a base, vehicles, bot groups - similar to starcraft-esque games. that’s been really fun and visionary.

the real challenge will be to find a way to put all that togehter, i would even see several developers working together and stack the solutions on top of each-other so player can decide in how many aspects the would like to participate. oh_dear_i’m_getting_carried_away


(tokamak) #14

Yes I actually did play that. Operation Flashpoint has always been the perfect sandbox for wannabe game developers.

Yeah, I’m sure this could be lifted to the heights of WoW if it’s finally managed. But yeah, the technology isn’t there yet.

We need some place where we all can brain storm about this.


(madoule) #15

We need some place where we all can brain storm about this.

oh, hell yeah! SD shoulda give us a place, we’d feed the ideas and ed can tie this story-wise together :smiley: that’d be a blast.

but on a more serious note: i guess technology wise, the pc even today can handle something like this. your WoW example perfectly sticks. some one just has to take the leap/investment/time/balls to straighten it out. it’s exactly as wow, nobody knew exactly how it would turn out. actually, it couldn’t have been better, in terms of return on investment but imagine it all would have crashed and burned, because players weren’t up for it…


(tokamak) #16

The PC is there and you can always water down the graphics if needed, but there’s a bandwith problem. A game like WoW doesn’t need a low latency because the fights have a really low fidelity (fireballs always hit, you need to be roughly in the right proximity to hit someone with a sword, everything has a slight cool down, it’s nearly turnbased). Shooters have a high fidelity, need pixel precision in order to be satisfying.

Also physics are really limited, but I think that’s still mostly cosmetics anyway.

You can solve some of it by really discouraging big fights (a stronghold defended by 8 defenders will have the defenders compensated in power for every attacker that outnumbers them), but it can’t be prevented without breaking the MMO feel.

So what we really need is better servers, WoW is already pushing the envelope right now.

I think what Blizzard realised they did wrong with WoW is that they still treat it like a singleplayer narrative. All handcrafted content that could only be played once before it ran stale. That means they need to keep building new stuff to satisfy the player’s hunger and even that content will only have a sort lifetime.

Emergent gameplay is not only much more compelling to players, it’s also a great business model. The stuff you create on a regularly basis accumulates. If you allow players to start combining their own objectives, then all you need to do is give them more building blocks to exponentially increase the amount of designs they can make for themselves. Everything you create has a long lifetime and will be replenished by every part you add.

Look at EVE. EVE doesn’t need much new content added because the gameplay is composed by the conflicting ambitions of the players. All the producers need to do is maintain the servers and regulate the game, they don’t need to keep building it.


(madoule) #17

well i have to trust your opinion on the technical restrictions, for i am not as familiar with those.

in total, that is my idea of an mmofps (with strategic aspects and financial factors).
IF you go for this massive idea, you have to have a bit more bandwidth just to be on the safe side for future endeavors and upgrades.

and IMO, player created scenarios will be the major kicker. the huge challenge will be to create AND maintain a stable, rigid and open backbone which easily translates player’s ideas into fair, balanced FUN.

there’s definitely a compelling business model that is sustainable even if a game begins to get old (technically, visually). we just need to look at the new markets i.e. WoW has opened (figuratively speaking: fat kids buying digital money of asian hot shots).

looking at expansions, there’s still room for a dev to offer extra content, that may be a game breaker for players and a new revenue stream for the devs.

and while we are spinning out of control. i do think the “commander” option from BF2, squad leaders and small officers will sooner or later receive a renaissance. that doesn’t mean it has to be filled with a 12-year old, who’s shouting at his team but can be filled with AI similar to brink.

another idea of mine is that certain games can and will be overlapping: blurring the lines between RTS and FPS. i googled, but wasn’t lucky on my first try, but i do recall a game where you were 1on1 vs the computer. you could send out troops (jets, tanks, etc) from your HQ and switch anytime back and forth between map and first person view. in FP view of the units you could go all out in battle. and that’s been still back in the 90s.


(tokamak) #18

there’s definitely a compelling business model that is sustainable even if a game begins to get old (technically, visually). we just need to look at the new markets i.e. WoW has opened (figuratively speaking: fat kids buying digital money of asian hot shots).

That’s not a business model, that’s just a niche leeching over WoW’s market. A monthly subscription is the best way to go about this as you simply make people forget they’re paying for the game. In-game ware sold for cash money constantly reminds people that they’re paying money for content.

I paid some cash for the World of Tanks gold, 10 dollars to speed me through the first phases of the game which would otherwise take me months. But after that I found it really hard to justify any more investment in that game even though I still play it regularly.

But I wasn’t even talking about a distribution model. I was talking about effectively building content. 90% of all WoW’s content isn’t played any more by most of the playerbase. It’s old stuff that even new players can rush past if they want to.

However, if you build a system that allows people to generate the content themselves. Start with basic objectives, let them buy walls, barricades, machine gun nests, towers and whatnot and let them compose a stronghold with that. Then all you need to do is add building blocks to the mix.
Naturally a world in which players have such an impact really requires a lot of server resources and it will be much harder to balance. You’d need to impose limitations to make such player-made objectives playable. But in return you get the fact that your game will never run stale and that a constant supply of new content isn’t needed to keep the game satiated.

Even if the player influences proves to be too much, you can let the game procedurally click the building blocks together. That would give the developer more power to regulate the game. And then there’s even a compromise possible. Let the player invest his resources, turn some knobs in the ‘stronghold machine’ and then let the game generate one procedurally based on the parameters given by the player.

another idea of mine is that certain games can and will be overlapping: blurring the lines between RTS and FPS. i googled, but wasn’t lucky on my first try, but i do recall a game where you were 1on1 vs the computer. you could send out troops (jets, tanks, etc) from your HQ and switch anytime back and forth between map and first person view. in FP view of the units you could go all out in battle. and that’s been still back in the 90s.

Naturally. The above described idea already is a RTS regardless of the perspective you use (though for the sake of immersion I think it should stick to first person). It’s a conquest within a sandbox over resources, the conquest itself is determined by teams of players warring over the settlements and structures that generate these resources.

The universe of Rage would lend itself perfectly for this. A barren wasteland in which anything is possible.

However, even Brink’s universe would be great for a MMOFPS. It would even require less NASA technology to pull off.

Brink takes place on an ocean! Oceans don’t require much resources to build, generate and to play on. Nintendo already found this out with Zelda the Wind Waker. A modest console like the Gamecube could render a vast plane of sea on which tiny islands were scattered. To the player it doesn’t matter, there’s still this huge world. But for the production process the difference between land and sea matters a lot!

Brink’s MMOFPS would be a sea full with drifting colonies, hi-tech and lo-tech. Arks, shanty towns, research facilities, oil rigs, geo-engineering projects, floating shipwrecks and perhaps even small natural islands (obligatory homage to volcano here). Players would be able to start their own settlements and expand on them. They would be able to explore the ocean and launch raids to plunder other colonies.

It’s the perfect next step. The ocean is a perfect place to kick off this genre.


(madoule) #19

well it is, for the guys in asian. tho i getcha. but let’s not fuzz over POV, clearly we’re are on the same page all in all.

i’m not familiar with those facts. but i’d counter that with a sort of progression that is mandatory, largely in the player’s own interest and logical. over my head I’d think of a progression that is made of conquering maps. (i.e. like in jagged alliance) that’d circumvent a linear progression and incorporate maybe different geographical elements like elivation, swamp, woodlands… i guess you get the point.

the building system you mentioned, could easily be incorporated into those maps. why not spent resources into a base or HQ of a faction.

similarly to your vision, i do not see to much problems with too much influence of players on the overall environment. there are always ways to balance it somehow. however it’ll be a large can of worms if the community will be as critical as this one here. IF there are infinite possibilities, the community will not likely go for anything else.

well real “Real Time Strategy” will never be possible in this mix we are thinking of. there will always be a compromise just for the reasons that single players of faction will not likely be around 24/7. here we will more likely look into a round based model, were fights, strategic moves, building phases may happen real time and simultaneously BUT for the player experience these have to be playable separately with a sort of dive-in, dive-out mechanic.

i’d imagine you logging in the game and it (again similar to brink) tells you the options you have (if you were completely involved, i.e. faction leader):

  1. balance - investment options, purchase stocks, etc
  2. construction - you need to repair base 3, improve base 1, upgrad HQ, etc.
  3. strategic - squad 1,3,5 are idle, squad 2 is guarding base 3, squad 4 for en route to attack…
  4. command / dive-in battle with squad 4

[QUOTE=tokamak;286720]Brink’s MMOFPS would be a sea full with drifting colonies, hi-tech and lo-tech. Arks, shanty towns, research facilities, oil rigs, geo-engineering projects, floating shipwrecks and perhaps even small natural islands (obligatory homage to volcano here). Players would be able to start their own settlements and expand on them. They would be able to explore the ocean and launch raids to plunder other colonies.

It’s the perfect next step. The ocean is a perfect place to kick off this genre.[/quote]

well, that is a quite daring scenario. and imo totally manageable with the ideas i mentioned just now.
when meeting a new colony youcan form an alliance or just go fight for the conquest of the found colony (maybe players can decide to join the conquerors after defeat) or just go for scavenge hunt.

those are IMO two possible scenarios players can build.

  1. scavenge hunt: (several maps to complete to) earn XX% of new resources
  2. conquest: (several maps to complete to) earn 100% of new resources + new colonists

(tokamak) #20

I’m a big fan of keeping the open world intact so prefer to talk about missions rather than objectives.

Colonies should be treated like onions, it’s up to the attacker to peel off the layers. The first phase is to find an entry point, then set up a landing site, and go on from there until a headquarters is captured and the colony becomes yours.

Now each phase can take a while. The battles could last between half an hour and an hour and the longer you hold the end objective within that phase, the longer it will take to reconstruct it if you’re ever driven out.

This means that players can gradually eat away at a colony, such a process could take days, weeks while the battles for each phase itself are still pretty swift.