High Level Play Testing

(Apples) #41

[QUOTE=ZaF;223162]o_O

ok im gonna drop this as clearly this isn’t the place for such a discussion.[/QUOTE]

Welcome to the fantastic world of average players :smiley:

(INF3RN0) #42

“Depends on your definition of average sir”… rofl :riflenade:.

(Nail) #43

my definition is the 98% of the peple buying the game, the other 2% (comp players) always whine about the same things, “we want it optimised for 2 v 2 or 4 v 4 arena deathmatch”. Most people bought RTCW way before OSP made it useful for competition

(tokamak) #44

Hey, rather average than a requiring simplified gameplay.

(Apples) #45

Tell me how promod is simplified plz? 6V6 has all the tools of the game except flyers… you were talking bout occam’s razor if I remember correctly…

peace

(Qhullu) #46

umm, RTCW was plenty useful for competition before OSP. other than slightly better netcode and randomized first spawn times, OSP changed nothing related to the core gameplay. maybe you were thinking about ET which was a mess on release?

yes but “high” is relative and wholly dependent on who you’re comparing yourself to, and high level players in pubs are a rarity compared to clan play. for example there are few ET pubs in europe that have pretty much exclusively people who are good at the game, but even on those there are usually only few people who are really good.

for example one time, a player called squall ( he’s not high+ but possibly high according to ET comp standard scale :smiley: ) was playing on the server i frequent, and while his aim was nothing special, his gameknowledge made him one of the hardest people i’ve fought against ever, and i doubt he was really trying. compared to that i’d say the best players frequenting that pub are probably med+ with maybe a couple high- players (who all are probably aliased comp players anyway).

anyways, my point is, unless you’ve played with and against the best in a game that is good enough to be attractive to the really talented, you have no idea what your skill level really is. i mean, i’m pretty crappy but even i can find a server with people who’d make me look awesome. and if i only played there, i might start to think i’m pretty awesome. which is why seeing people use their average k:d ratio as if it is some kind of universal measure of skill always makes smile.

and how this relates to this topic, is high skilled players have high level understanding on every aspect of the game and the ability to put it use. and since Brink is very similar to ET (as far as i can see, the only thing that really makes a difference when playing the game is the movement system), it might be a good idea to tap into that knowledge base i think.

releasing an unfinished game and fixing it by listening to everyone asking to make their preferred setup stronger might be a less than ideal strategy compared to releasing a game no one has any reason to complain about in the first place, or at least do everything in your power to get as close to that as possible.

(AnthonyDa) #47

[quote=Apples;223197]Tell me how promod is simplified plz? 6V6 has all the tools of the game except flyers… you were talking bout occam’s razor if I remember correctly…

peace[/quote]
Don’t forget that etqwpro as also a “meaningless” spread according to totamok, because hitting what you are aiming for is much simpler than playing with the randomness of the huge spread according to some …

(Jamieson) #48

I wasn’t trying to be offensive for once so cut me some slack, I said give us the SDK so we can get promod out quickly and that it should be enough, I added this to confirm my original point that we didn’t need clans testing “the highest level of gamplay” as the OP put it.

The fact is that competition will have different requirements to vanilla gameplay so to say a promod isn’t necessary is foolish because obviously it is. SD knows this, because a minority of the games population wants to play the game in a different way doesn’t mean SD should stop trying.

Stop overeacting, Christ I was agreeing with you for once and you bite my head off…

(INF3RN0) #49

I hope you understand that there is a BIG difference between simplification and refinement. You do realize that people used to play competitively out of promod? It’s not as if it were a different game. League rules for 6v6 are different than pub rules Orly. Now try a 12v12 promod vanilla rule set and it is much more balanced and guess what, you lose nothing. No one wanted to make the game 6v6 with limitations, it was only a necessity for comp play. Everything else was altered to balance the spam fest that is QW.

(Jamieson) #50

In response to 4v4 and 6v6 being simplified.

The first is that it is almost impossible to maintain a competitive scene with 12 man line ups as INF3RN0 mentioned, The only team I know that had the organisation to do that was my old clan TAW were we frequently had 2 16v16 matches with over 60 people playing at a time. I would honestly love to see a team exist for more than a year with the 12 man lineup that it started with, it just isn’t going to happen, it would make arranging matches a nightmare.

Then we come to the ingame restrictions such as no flyer or radar, or only 1 deployable of each type. There are very good reasons why clanbase and other leauges impose restrictions on both sets of gameplay. Can you imagine trying to build the bridge on valley with a strogg loadout of

2 oppressors with Plasma Mortas, one flying the tormentor.
1 constructor AIT in the Desecrator
2 Hyper blasters
1 radar and Railgun sniping.

The fact is it would never get done and would be very boring. The restrictions are in place to ensure both sides have an equal chance to win and because professional players can use restricted weapons/deployables/vehicles to a lethal standard and don’t need to have them unrestricted.

The reason why promod reduces spread is because it makes it fair, Where you shoot is where you shoot. It also adds another layer to gameplay. In Vanilla if you jump to dodge its hard to shoot because the spread is rediclous.

In promod both opponents in the 1v1 can shoot and dodge how they want, I could jump, crouch, strafe left or right or forwards and backwards and my aim would still be my aim with no interference. Vanilla just feels restrictive in comparison. After I enter a pub match after playing a scrim I’m constantly saying “I should have got that headshot, stupid spread/netcode” obviously I adjust my aim but it is annoying and is no way near as smooth.

Don’t knock it till you have tried it.

(INF3RN0) #51

@Jamieson

Tokamak just does not seem to realize that there is a difference between league formatting and the actual changes in promod, and it seems that he thinks comp players want the pub to use the exact same rule set. I am expecting him to realize how ignorant his comment was in that context, but if he actually admits he under appreciates or really just doesn’t understand what promod does I might have to give him an e-cookie. Everything always turns into a comp vs vanilla battle… and it needs to be clear that comp does not = promod, it only uses it.

Back tracking to the original post; just for these reasons, it does not make a comp player have any more reason to test Brink. I would however like someone like Hannes to be a tester, and others who pay attention to the technical details more so than being really good at killing people in the game. When and if a promod comes out however, I would totally be for comp players having priority in testing.

(Nail) #52

“high skilled players have high level understanding on every aspect of the game and the ability to put it use”

the game isn’t out, they know nothing
they certainly don’t know design limitations, memory limitations, movement restrictions et all
they may know how to use the game to their advantage
there’s several games out there that lend themsdelves to 4 v 4, why does every game need to cater to that very small crowd ?

(Apples) #53

The better men for testing a game are modder and mapper IMO, no need to be uber leet in shooting ppl, but these guys hold their own when it comes to flaw into a map or gameplay.

Peace

(signofzeta) #54

I dunno man, we know Brink has the same level of objective based play as RTCW, but is Brink actually RTCW? I feel that if you let only top level RTCW players into testing the game, the game will become a RTCW, which I don’t think the game is meant to be.

All of us don’t know how the game is played, and for all its worth, it may be different to the games we are used to. But if it is, I wouldn’t panic and neither should all of you.

(Qhullu) #55

ok, i’ll try to figure out what’s happening here since i’m just puzzled.

someone give me a list of things related to core gameplay(weapon behavior and movement system) they think a stereotypical comp player would want that wouldn’t work for the casual crowd.

(Apples) #56

[QUOTE=Qhullu;223228]ok, i’ll try to figure out what’s happening here since i’m just puzzled.

someone give me a list of things related to core gameplay(weapon behavior and movement system) they think a stereotypical comp player would want that wouldn’t work for the casual crowd.[/QUOTE]

Hence my answer, trying to be consensual here…

Mappaer/modder usually are “good” shooter and have a clue about how the game should run, I think that most of “pubber” fear is that (as in most ET/rtcw) rambo medic will take the lead and will change the game.

Peace

(Nail) #57

[QUOTE=Qhullu;223228]ok, i’ll try to figure out what’s happening here since i’m just puzzled.

someone give me a list of things related to core gameplay(weapon behavior and movement system) they think a stereotypical comp player would want that wouldn’t work for the casual crowd.[/QUOTE]

4 v 4 smg only arena maps

(INF3RN0) #58

[QUOTE=Qhullu;223228]ok, i’ll try to figure out what’s happening here since i’m just puzzled.

someone give me a list of things related to core gameplay(weapon behavior and movement system) they think a stereotypical comp player would want that wouldn’t work for the casual crowd.[/QUOTE]

People think that comp players only want to cater to themselves and in a way that only focuses on wanting a game to have a standard league format. This is true in a lot of cases unfortunately, but what is not taken into account is that most comp players are more concerned with a game that actually works and is balanced (otherwise no one will play it or they will stop quickly). This in no way means that it has to be like another game or be limited. Very simply it means that there can not be room for simple mistakes. Pub and comp function differently, but for those “perfect” games they only differ by rule sets. For the most part, aside from spread changes, promod essentially fixes popularly viewed issues with the standard game (damage numbers, HP, etc), and then you can play the game however you like via server config (comp=4v4/6v6). Everyone likes to pub, and there is nothing wrong with wanting to ensure that serious issues don’t get overlooked in the confusion of less capable/organized player groups. We never saw QW 1.6, but I bet it would have made a lot of the changes in promod unnecessary. Mods should be made to create new modes of game play, not fix the game itself (wolf 2 RIP… actually that game had no chance). QW was never too horrid for the most part (netcode was the worst part), but you can always make things better these days.

(INF3RN0) #59

Optional game mode that is unrelated to promod? I like comp purely for organization and challenge. Comp play would use everything if the game elements designed for 12v12 would work in a smaller environment, but they don’t (ie limits); there ain’t no way people can organize regular groups of 12 either. That in no way means that everyone wants the pure game to be the same… which is why configs are designed for optional modes of unintended game play or to compensate for numbers. Point is, balance is the underlying theme. Developers can be as creative as they want, but it has to work otherwise we will make it work; anything else only furthers options and there is nothing wrong with playing a game differently than intended.

(Nail) #60

There is no “promod” the game hasn’t been released, we’re talking about Brink, a new game from Splash Damage, not some previous game that was controlled by a totally anal publisher.

The original topic was “let us league players tell you how your game should be made”
I disagree, leagues usually prefer 4 v 4, which is understandable from a logistics point but that’s not what makes a game sell, gameplay and replayability do