[QUOTE=Shifty.;462787]
To counter the spam, increase the cooldown times for the special abilities (airstrike marker, sticky nades, 3rd eye, molotov, reload of gl)
Would that be ok for you?[/QUOTE]
please don’t increase the already long cooldown for the arty and airstrike :< not only that they aren’t doing enough damage as is, the aistrike should be destroying the ev on a direct hit, and the arty still doesn’t instagib
I didnt talk about the damage, because we all know it’s a joke.
I talked about the cooldown time when you use the airstrike marker indoors which doesnt tricker the actual airstrike. In ETQW the cooldown time is faster if the airstrike wasnt able to take place. I mainly played the new fov and I think that the cooldown of the molotov is too fast.
Why would it be a spam fest now? It has always been so before and no spam! What do you call spam? Spam is when a team gets spammed and can’t get out of a spawn for example, or a certain choke point gets repeatedly blocked by constant nades lying on a floor (like on volcano map on pub in a bunker with a supply crate). Having one nade per spawn doen’t allow it and is a minimum one can have - it can’t physically result in spam! Any other SD game had at least a nade and as soon as it is not on a cooldown and no supply crates (or similar) provide more, no spam can result.
I still haven’t heard any words from devs as of why nades were removed.
Not sure if it would be, but I have the fear it will. Just have a look at last stage whitechappel.
But I like that you cant recharge your nades with ammo packs/stations.
We posted about Frag Grenade removal before the actual update, here: http://forums.warchest.com/showthread.php/37165-Dirty-Bomb-Closed-Alpha-Progress-Update-August-6th-2013
[QUOTE=Anti;460532]Frag Grenades and Unique Abilities
We expect this next decision to be quite controversial, but it’s one that we think is worth testing. As part of the next update we will also be removing Frag Grenades from each character’s load-out.
Up until now frags have toed the line between being useless and being better than many of the character defining abilities in the game, and they have actually detracted from a character’s intended role in many cases.
By removing the frags from the build we hope to be able to do two things:
[ol]
[li]We can give the frags back to a few specific characters and make them suitably powerful as a result.
[/li][li]We can improve the quality and power of many of our other AoE abilities to the level they should be at, without having to worry that the game will become spammy.
[/li][/ol]
Interestingly, it’s so far helping us to identify which characters have underwhelming or lacklustre abilities - the air strike is a good example of something that should be just as effective as but different in purpose to a frag grenade. If we take frags away from characters that should be appealing because of their unique skills, it forces us to fix the issues with those skills.[/QUOTE]
I’d like to emphasise that ‘spam’ reduction is not the main reason for testing this change. The main reason (in my mind) is that frag grenades were/are more powerful than many abilities and detract from the uniqueness and differentiation we’re trying to achieve with characters. Also being ammo-based meant they were inconsistent with every other ability in the game.
Ok, I was wrong 
But wouldnt it be a better way to weaken the nade a bit? Not like the prevoius patch were the nade was useless, but somewhere in the middle?
[QUOTE=Shifty.;462819]Ok, I was wrong
But wouldnt it be a better way to weaken the nade a bit? Not like the prevoius patch were the nade was useless, but somewhere in the middle?[/QUOTE]
We’d much rather improve things so everything is good, than reduce things so everything is lacklustre.
We’re currently working on making the other abilities more appealing and useful. Removing frag grenades very quickly emphasised what characters were lacking in that regard. I think once we’re happy that the majority of characters abilities are fun, useful, powerful & distinct then we will revisit the frag grenade situation.
Ok, that sounds good.
I might be wrong, but the FOPS are the only mercs whose ability isnt appealing enough nor useful. But I remember that we ask since a couple of month to make the airstrike/arty lethal. Right now you must be very unlucky to get killed with airstrike/arty.
[QUOTE=Smooth;462814]We posted about Frag Grenade removal before the actual update, here: http://forums.warchest.com/showthread.php/37165-Dirty-Bomb-Closed-Alpha-Progress-Update-August-6th-2013
I’d like to emphasise that ‘spam’ reduction is not the main reason for testing this change. The main reason (in my mind) is that frag grenades were/are more powerful than many abilities and detract from the uniqueness and differentiation we’re trying to achieve with characters. Also being ammo-based meant they were inconsistent with every other ability in the game.[/QUOTE]
Sorry but this doesn’t explain anything. How can you improve a quality of other abilities by removing another ability? This just doesn’t make any sense! Just tweak the other ability lol. So instead of correcting a flawed ability you blame its flaws on grenades? How can ONE! nade per spawn overshadow both the main and the secondary weapon plus abilities of a character that are used continuously for a minute or so of shooting versus a one-shot grenade??? Or do you sincerely think that people abused grenades by spawning, throwing a nade (w/o using main weapons and abilities), selfkill, then spawn again (and that with unpredictable spawnwaves and times), repeat? As mentioned above, most of the abilities (especially airstrike) we have cannot substitute a nade, nor help clearing choke points indoors. And one nade cannot compete with a mine on cooldown - a nade is just a “right now” tool to react to a difficult or desparate problem in game and has a much less strategic use than a cooldown ability.
Exactly, they are still not fixed! Did removal of nades make them more effective? Nope.
. The main reason (in my mind) is that frag grenades were/are more powerful than many abilities and detract from the uniqueness and differentiation we’re trying to achieve with characters. Also being ammo-based meant they were inconsistent with every other ability in the game.
It’s normal for me if grenades are not considered as abilities. Grenades are a must have in a FPS, as a gun, it’s one of the primary weapons, and shouldn’t be used as an ability. What is the next step, consider the knife as an ability ?
In Tribes ascend, they are offering a good uniqueness and differentiation of grenades between class. These grenades are managed like in all other games (ammo-based), but the type and number of grenades is variable in function of the class.
[QUOTE=Smooth;462821]We’d much rather improve things so everything is good, than reduce things so everything is lacklustre.
We’re currently working on making the other abilities more appealing and useful. Removing frag grenades very quickly emphasised what characters were lacking in that regard. I think once we’re happy that the majority of characters abilities are fun, useful, powerful & distinct then we will revisit the frag grenade situation.[/QUOTE]
As strychzilla excellently pointed out, do you think these adjustments and changes are pointless if you’re getting skewed echo data due to spawn timers and other factors? I’ve freely admitted that I play the game with a completely different attitude due to lack of fear of dying, this leads me to believe that others do too which is more than likely having a knock-on effect that’s prompting these changes for the wrong reasons. I will gladly try and run over the top of a grenade and hope I survive, knowing I can just be revived or i’ll spawn quickly and be back in the game… in RtCW I wouldn’t dare go near a grenade for fear of instagib and a potentially long wait for spawn. If the spawn times were fixed, overkill added, damage changed etc, echo would probably paint a completely different picture which would make these grenade changes either unnecessary or a step in the wrong direction. Feels like you’re working on designing how the office will look before the building’s foundations have even been laid.
“The main reason (in my mind) is that frag grenades were/are more powerful than many abilities and detract from the uniqueness and differentiation we’re trying to achieve with characters. Also being ammo-based meant they were inconsistent with every other ability in the game.”
If you want to treat grenades as ability’s would it not be better to have different types (eg HL2 throw or roll) of grenades and varying grenade behaviors (like one bounce or one hit detonate) on a merc by merc basis?
So then vehicles are a core part of a game then too? Your blinded by your love for the grenade bud. I like it better as a special class tool especially with the way DB plays, and it reduces the overall damage spam. Grenades become too effective when everyone has one and restricting them to one class changes the entire dynamic in a good way. Grenades are now a unique tool that need to be used wisely and makes the soldier feel more like the bottle neck breaker.
Yes Splash Damage know what is a core gameplay element and grenades should go to the fraggers not everyone. How are you going to have a varied choice of purchasable toons if all of them have the same core equipment?
i get the argument with regards to defining the “soldier class” (or whatever that is now) as a specific, offensive role on the team.
but with regards to the overall combat viability of each individual character, fragger seems to me like one of the characters that needs the grenade the least.
team role gets old pretty quickly if the “role character” can’t significantly contribute offensively. at least it does to me.
unrelated to that, the nade-less characters feel kind of… flat… or uninteresting with the current array of abilities and tactical options.
even characters with explosives (proxy, for instance). most of the time i just wish there was something more i could do…
Vehilcles not of course. There’s a lot of people who were like mimimi when they saw them in ETQW. I can understand that and accept that.
But regarding nades - tell it to the millions of players who have been using them in every game since the dawn of the FPS gaming.
Hell even an RPG-FPS fusion such as Mass Effect has more characters with nades…
[QUOTE=Ashog;462953]Vehilcles not of course. There’s a lot of people who were like mimimi when they saw them in ETQW. I can understand that and accept that.
But regarding nades - tell it to the millions of players who have been using them in every game since the dawn of the FPS gaming.
Hell even an RPG-FPS fusion such as Mass Effect has more characters with nades…[/QUOTE]
If you like nades so much why not just pick a toon that has them, there is bound to be come final release someone you can buy who fits your specification needs.
[QUOTE=1-800-NOTHING;462947]
unrelated to that, the nade-less characters feel kind of… flat… or uninteresting with the current array of abilities and tactical options.
even characters with explosives (proxy, for instance). most of the time i just wish there was something more i could do…[/QUOTE]
Yep they do, but nades just filled a slot. Anti already said they plan to boost the appeal of characters now that the nade is a tool.