Health Regen and Merc "strength".

(PixelTwitch) #41

It would be a little broken at times…
What if you are just in a fire fight when your team respawns?
All of a sudden you have the advantage over your enemy though nothing but luck really.

Also, I personally feel there will be more team play without such a feature.
Doing this would remove a Medics instant urge to get their and heal/revive his team.

I see where you are going with the idea I am just struggling to see past the number of “lucky” regens you could have.
If none of your team died that respawn do you still get the regen?
what about objective mode where the spawns are different?

(tokamak) #42

Could you elaborate on the way you think spawning impacts this? It feels I’m missing a step.

(PixelTwitch) #43

sorry this was a reply to glottis-3d about an idea he was talking about.
The spawns do not effect my initial idea.
The reason why they effect glottis is because he wants to do a fast regen each time your team respawns.

(Sun_Sheng) #44

Personally if I was near to the spawn wave, on most occasions i’d just go for a /kill rather than wait to regen. The only thing that stops me doing that in general is that the /kill process annoys me greatly (free kills/deaths etc)

(PixelTwitch) #45

[QUOTE=Phandy;515009]What do you guys think of the up-to 50%(or chosen %) only health regen. Anti told me it was in Brink, I think its in some other games too.
Its where you can only get back 50% of your health, basic regen. You need a medic or med-box to heal back up to 100%?

Its like a halfway solution. Anyone played games with this mechanic in? Not sure I have.[/QUOTE]

The biggest issue is you then effectively half the difference between a light and heavy after a regen. 40hp to 60hp is much smaller then 80hp to 120hp obviously.

(Glottis-3D) #46

[QUOTE=PixelTwitch;515073]It would be a little broken at times…
What if you are just in a fire fight when your team respawns?
All of a sudden you have the advantage over your enemy though nothing but luck really.

Also, I personally feel there will be more team play without such a feature.
Doing this would remove a Medics instant urge to get their and heal/revive his team.

I see where you are going with the idea I am just struggling to see past the number of “lucky” regens you could have.
If none of your team died that respawn do you still get the regen?
what about objective mode where the spawns are different?[/QUOTE]

i am coming from several thoughts.
-this would be a replacement for /kill -s that were popular method in et/etqw sometimes you realy dont want to wait for medic and even hp regen is to slow.
-this system would encourage ‘kill them after the spawnwave, so they’ll go-on-full’ this as well was a popular tactics in etqw and et. ppl chose to engage in fight after a spawnwave - a risk but with great payoff. right now in db you engage in a battle when it happens - at random times, which is tactically wrong.

but mostly this will make fights more wave-based.
and i honestly think it is good for game. because right now fights occur just because at all mapparts at all times. thats why we have this awfull TDM-feel in the game.

about firefight situations: regen will stop if dmg recieved. so it will not bring much injustise

(Mustang) #47

Of course it doesn’t have to be a % of max HP, it could just be a fixed number for everyone, e.g. 70hp.

(tokamak) #48

Or an individual parameter for each merc. Details.

(PixelTwitch) #49

[QUOTE=Glottis-3D;515081]i am coming from several thoughts.
-this would be a replacement for /kill -s that were popular method in et/etqw sometimes you realy dont want to wait for medic and even hp regen is to slow.
-this system would encourage ‘kill them after the spawnwave, so they’ll go-on-full’ this as well was a popular tactics in etqw and et. ppl chose to engage in fight after a spawnwave - a risk but with great payoff. right now in db you engage in a battle when it happens - at random times, which is tactically wrong.

but mostly this will make fights more wave-based.
and i honestly think it is good for game. because right now fights occur just because at all mapparts at all times. thats why we have this awfull TDM-feel in the game.

about firefight situations: regen will stop if dmg recieved. so it will not bring much injustise[/QUOTE]

The big concern still stands… what about objective mode where the spawns are not synced?

Also, while I do see the idea behind what you are saying, your idea relies on people paying attention to spawn times.In competitive I can see that happening but expecting the majority of pub players to do so is kinda stretching in my opinion. In competitive there is this kinda understanding between both teams that no one is likely to break cover or defensive positions until a set time, where in public play you can not rely on your enemy to not just run into you at a random time and this would kinda mute the system completely.

Again, in my opinion, each system in Dirty Bomb should be designed to not require player commitment to work however it should reward players for doing so.
This is very different from a system punishing people that do not pay attention and being decent for people that do pay attention.

The system I suggest directs play subconsciously where yours requires awareness.

Also, something personally I believe should be as muted as possible in the game is /kill -s due to it not being something that many players will find makes sense. While I assume that many competitive players will still use the /kill -s in competitive matches due to the potential rewards of doing so. I find it hard to believe that public players will be willing to sacrifice scorestreaks in order to do so (breaking killstreaks, revive streaks and kill death ratio)

Also, while taking damage would stop the health regen.
What happens if a player pays attention and ducks into cover for a few seconds and goes into a full hp fight and loses 5 seconds before his team that respawned reaches him? what about slower RoF weapons where the people fighting miss a few shots enabling players to get 50+ hp over their enemy. If anything I feel a system like this is more likely in a pub environment to desync team fights due to seemingly random bursts of health regen.

(Protekt1) #50

Blacklight retribution has a partial health regen system. But they also have a classless, but fully customizable build system and a way to heal on your own without taking the healing kit.

I like the current system sort of. But I don’t think team based gameplay has to revolve around requiring medics either. I think a team based fps doesn’t HAVE to have medics. Honestly. Having a medic should be a boon and not as much a necessity because when you don’t have a medic then your team is screwed.

(Orellien) #51

One thing to think about regarding Health Regen is how it should apply to a single fight versus the ongoing battle, tactical versus strategic, for the purposes of this post.

One of the effects of the current Health Regen system is that it’s fairly useful in a Strategic sense, allowing defenders to catch their breath without suiciding on a spawn wave, or giving attackers a reason to fall back and regroup, without making it useful in a Tactical sense. You can’t duck behind cover and regen back to full HP without a Medic’s help, for example, like you can do in other games.

That’s the context that I’m reading these posts in. I’m a bit curious if people are getting a good tactical use out of this, or if the desires to weaken regeneration is about minimizing the, for lack of a better term, out of combat healing.

(Szakalot) #52

[QUOTE=Orellien;515109]
One of the effects of the current Health Regen system is that it’s fairly useful in a Strategic sense, allowing defenders to catch their breath without suiciding on a spawn wave, or giving attackers a reason to fall back and regroup, without making it useful in a Tactical sense. You can’t duck behind cover and regen back to full HP without a Medic’s help, for example, like you can do in other games.[/QUOTE]

Another side effect is that a skilled player will regen his health back to 100% and own the less skilled players again. And so every skilled player that tends to die in <33% of 1on1s will have little motivation to care about his teammates, he’s got his ammo to last a while, and why care about medics (or be one), if you can just regen it all off?

Without regen, unless a medic (less efficient at killing due to less hp/inferior weapons/low max hp increase rate), a rambo will always eventually be overwhelmed by the other players, giving them a sense of satisfaction (together we can get anything done!), and decreasing frustration levels.

As far as respite between fights, 20-25% of team being medics that care is usually more than enough to top other people that care (some people seem to never look at their hp) off.

I’ve also just realized that, if you play a medic, you almost never have people run up to you and request HP. In RTCW and W:ET you’d sometimes have queues of hurt players, all waiting for tk-revives + HPs, even on pubs! Here everyrone runs and guns, nobody cares if they have 80 or 100hp, cause it will all regen in a moment, as long as you pace your firefight well, so why even bother.

I think medics and related player dynamics are the cornerstone of group forming, necessary for teamplay to emerge between players. Nothing says ‘we are a team’ as much as reviving your fallen teammates (EVERYBODY hates to wait in limbo!). Typically, a medic would clutch a fops leg, to always be topped off on ammo, making the fops appreciate medics presence, and giving ammo packs in return.

Reviving is probably the only action from teamplay-promoting pool that is also (alot) fun to play. Throwing out ammo packs, and putting down hp stations, its all nice to be part of the team, but in the end its just a small chore, and why do chores? We’re playing a game here! I think this is where Brink may have gone too far, with all the buffs you could huffnpuff around.

However, if teamplaying atmosphere emerges, suddenly even these actions can be satisfying, as you know you are part of something bigger. I would put to you that medics need to have a more significant impact on the game in order for these relations-dependencies between players to emerge.

Seems like the most straightforward way to increase medics’ importance is to force other players to go look for them: thus no HP regen. Cap on medic’s self-healing (and medic-to-medic healing) not far from the current HP regen rate would force the medics to always be in the background, relative to Rhino’s n Fragger’s who get 60hp/s from hpstation; limiting their rambo capacity.

(PixelTwitch) #53

[QUOTE=Orellien;515109]One thing to think about regarding Health Regen is how it should apply to a single fight versus the ongoing battle, tactical versus strategic, for the purposes of this post.

One of the effects of the current Health Regen system is that it’s fairly useful in a Strategic sense, allowing defenders to catch their breath without suiciding on a spawn wave, or giving attackers a reason to fall back and regroup, without making it useful in a Tactical sense. You can’t duck behind cover and regen back to full HP without a Medic’s help, for example, like you can do in other games.

That’s the context that I’m reading these posts in. I’m a bit curious if people are getting a good tactical use out of this, or if the desires to weaken regeneration is about minimizing the, for lack of a better term, out of combat healing.[/QUOTE]

you actually almost hit the nail on the head with this.
The current regen system is basically a post fight reset.
The regen is no really good enough to be used during a fight.

The problem the “without needing to kill out” is that ammo is a much bigger factor than health currently.
On certain objectives a solly is much more desirable than a field ops due to health and damage output.
Underground is a prime example of this however the same could be said about most none EV escort objectives.

With the current buff to Stokers Molotov this is starting to change however its still far from perfect.
A draft mode should also reduce the issues here as you would assume at least one Field Ops would be taken as default.

The current issue with the regen in terms of team play is quite simple…
Medics can be broken down into one of two camps…
Good and Bad…
Good medics are healing you during a fight and have a use.
Bad medics are fighting and only healing/reviving afterwards.
The current model means these medics are not required at all but still the vast majority of Medics out there…
It often ends up better to gib out and respawn full hp + ammo than it is to get hp but no ammo in a limited time.
due to long respawn times and regen the desire to seek out a medic to heal you is greatly reduced.

This is only compounded by the fact self healing medics are such good fraggers.
Also, I don’t thing that the majority of people use the medic “correctly” and the skill requirement for a good medic is very high.
This combined with medics being slow (still makes little sense to me that Aura is a light merc with a stationary ability)
Chasing to heal lighter mercs is basically impossible/suicide meaning they need to come to you.
The further distance throws do help here but there is such a skill curve on aiming them packs that generally it still sucks.

My idea was based on forcing a Medic requirement on certain Mercs but reducing on Mercs that don’t fit into a Medics design.
If you have 1 pack left and a Rhino and Proxy infront of you… The Rhino gets it 99% of the time.
Also to require a Proxy to keep coming back is counter acting her overall design (run and gun, close quarters, sneaky)

[QUOTE=Szakalot;515110]Another side effect is that a skilled player will regen his health back to 100% and own the less skilled players again. And so every skilled player that tends to die in <33% of 1on1s will have little motivation to care about his teammates, he’s got his ammo to last a while, and why care about medics (or be one), if you can just regen it all off?

Without regen, unless a medic (less efficient at killing due to less hp/inferior weapons/low max hp increase rate), a rambo will always eventually be overwhelmed by the other players, giving them a sense of satisfaction (together we can get anything done!), and decreasing frustration levels.

As far as respite between fights, 20-25% of team being medics that care is usually more than enough to top other people that care (some people seem to never look at their hp) off.[/QUOTE]

This is also correct…
Due to full health regen it is a fair battleground almost every single fight.
Skilled players stomp lesser skilled players the vast majority of time.
This is likely one of the core reasons for a big drop off of lesser skilled players.
It is also an argument for why Counter Strike works quite well…
A bad player can get that random bullet into a low HP player and get a kill.
This happens very infrequently in Dirty Bomb.

(Glottis-3D) #54

[QUOTE=Orellien;515109]One thing to think about regarding Health Regen is how it should apply to a single fight versus the ongoing battle, tactical versus strategic, for the purposes of this post.

One of the effects of the current Health Regen system is that it’s fairly useful in a Strategic sense, allowing defenders to catch their breath without suiciding on a spawn wave, or giving attackers a reason to fall back and regroup, without making it useful in a Tactical sense. You can’t duck behind cover and regen back to full HP without a Medic’s help, for example, like you can do in other games.

That’s the context that I’m reading these posts in. I’m a bit curious if people are getting a good tactical use out of this, or if the desires to weaken regeneration is about minimizing the, for lack of a better term, out of combat healing.[/QUOTE]

very good!
i am mostly consernerd, that full HP regen takes away strategy in fight. - completely.
and i need this in game to some extent.

when the fight is finished. everything resets to zero. and next fight starts from scratch. so they are all the same all repetitieve.

(Mustang) #55

Nobody ever mentioned in-fight regen, it doesn’t happen at the moment and is a complete non-starter, so of course it is the post-fight regen being spoke of, I’d have thought that much was obvious.

The “issue” is the post-fight reset means there is no need to find a medic, have a medic come to you, or to respawn, so you can just happily continue to camp the same location knowing that you’ll be on full again when the next encounter occurs.

Now I’m not sure if this is actually an issue or not, because it certainly does seems to be the intended design, yes it requires a different style of play, but personally I don’t mind it all too much. Equally I’d be happy if the regen was nerfed slightly to make medics a bit more important/useful, but I’ve grown accustomed to the idea that they aren’t going to be as integral to the squad as they previously were.

P.S. Aura’s in-fight HP station regen is BS, it’s far too good.

(xdc) #56

[QUOTE=Szakalot;515054]What rambo medics? I barely every see a rambo medic over a rambo-fragger, rambo-vassili, rambo-proxy and rambo-stoker.

Medics are already focused on supporting role due too lower HP and inferior default guns. Plus, their health regen is barely faster than basic HP regen of other mercs.

I know there was no regen before, but I’d love to see how that looks like again, with only medics regenerating at current (or even slower) rate.

In most of the cases, players live and die by 1-2 spawn waves, typically without enough time to run out of ammo, or require much healing.[/QUOTE]

I can defiantly rambo with any medic except Aura, their weapons are not inferior, plus it is easy to run from a battle and heal urself, and reenter again. Get Headshots, run to heal, reenter battle - this is what a rambo medic is and I can do this the whole game. Removing regen is a dumb move

(Szakalot) #57

I guess we’d have to see the stats to be able to tell who is the best merc k/d wise. I’m sure Sawbonez is somewhere up there, not only because best players most likely have RTCW/ET/QW background, where rambo-medic was the way to go, if you just wanted to frag.
However, I rarely see medics among the top2 fraggers in any team, its typically a high-aim fops and proxy/fragger.

Phoenix self-heal rate is extremely poor, and barely over the base regens of any other merc, so I’m not sure how thats rambo-medic-ing, and not just going rambo regardless of class. Sawbonez seems a little faster, but I’ve noticed a slowdown since the last patch. Aura can be played as rambo, but in the end falls short in front of multiple enemies, due to low hp and shotgun’s dps cap.

Care to elaborate why its dumb? Do you think medics are OP? This would be strange considering average amount is no more than 2 per team, often without any medics at all.

Anyone can rambo, but what should matter is whether self-heal of medics allows them to rambo more than other classes, and I would be very surprised if that was the case.

(xdc) #58

self healing rates are the same since last patch

Sparks has the best ability to rambo, infinite ammo, no reload, & instant heal packs
phoneix doesnt have to switch primary to heal, which allows him to self heal quicker and reload quicker, his smg has alot of ammo per clip, not to mention his self revive is now 100 hp
sawbonez 10hp per second, you need 4 - 5 seconds after picking up self medpack to reenter battle again

you shouldn’t be exiting a battle with only 10 hp, but around half a health bar, and always have a med pack laying down before entering battle. always enter a battle with around full health.

what about when a team has no medics? the only solution for the player to heal is to die on purpose, or /kill, also i never felt the regen was fast enough, i still /kill to respawn with full health/ammo instead of running around for a medic or waiting for regen to start and wait for a full bar. With no regen and friendly fire on it would make just make the game more annoying

the point of the health regen, the ammo crates in the map , and the pickup teammate(revive without pads) is to make it so a team isnt completely useless if they dont have a medic or a field ops, and the game isnt always going to be played 6v6

(Sun_Sheng) #59

[QUOTE=PixelTwitch;515105]Again, in my opinion, each system in Dirty Bomb should be designed to not require player commitment to work however it should reward players for doing so.
This is very different from a system punishing people that do not pay attention and being decent for people that do pay attention.

The system I suggest directs play subconsciously where yours requires awareness.

Also, something personally I believe should be as muted as possible in the game is /kill -s due to it not being something that many players will find makes sense. While I assume that many competitive players will still use the /kill -s in competitive matches due to the potential rewards of doing so. I find it hard to believe that public players will be willing to sacrifice scorestreaks in order to do so (breaking killstreaks, revive streaks and kill death ratio)
.[/QUOTE]The problem I have with this and a lot of the options that people are suggesting, is that it seems to mirror modern-day political correctness. It’s like almost every advert you see on tv or film now where they try to make sure there is no chance of someone being offended so always include every possible race, men and women with equal authority or expertise, and everybody winning because we all live in an idealistic eutopia. Life is a bitch, it isn’t always fair, and good guys (or gals) don’t always win. One of the biggest problems DB has is the “everyone can, so nobody does” (Tm= Kendle iirc) scenarios that are proliferated throughout the game. This watering down of roles and making everyone a one man/woman army where they can all plant, all heal, all help each other up, and all end up playing TDM to varying degrees of proficiency, is just a shortcut to a boring game that nobody, except TDM players, wants to play.

Case in point: Last night I played Terminal. 7 plants down and not a single one defended. Every one of them defused with virtually no opposition. It’s tragic what this game is becoming after the potential it once had. Let people get pwned when they play for the first time, just give them hope that they can improve one day. Make the game difficult so noobs can’t do everything, but give them tutorials or something so that they can see how to progress. It’s how I learned and how pretty much everyone else I know learned too. I sucked, so I improved or died…often.

/kill for example, isn’t just there for people to get more health and ammo or not sit in limbo. It’s also there so people can respawn as a team and work as a team, not to be scattered around the map having their own little firefight and padding out their kdr. Make people learn!

(montheponies) #60

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Sun_Sheng again.