Headshots need to be completely disabled for automatic weapons

(Kill5Joy) #21

Cough Kross Cough

(Kill5Joy) #22

cough Carb9 cough

(sz80) #23

Didn’t read most of the posts up there, seemed like a derailing bitchfest.

Dj I think these thoughts may make you feel better:

1) HOW MUCH randomness/size of the cone is is the question. Hopefully it’s negligible (so luck only plays a small factor). There will probably be cvars in the future to reduce headshot multiplier, tighten up or remove the cone spray entirely for competitive play.
2) SMGs are for close quarters, much like a shotgun spread or the TF2 heavy minigun, so I can see why it’s a cone-- be close enough so the target gets hit by all bullets anyway.
HOWEVER, TF2 minigun and Brink shotty does NOT have extra damage from headshots, so there’s no lucky headshot damage boost involved. In TF2 only 1 character can get extra headshot damage–the sniper who is pinpoint accurate, no random spread.
3) I think this is correct, and probably the reason for the spread: Randomness in games is “noob friendly”. A pro was gonna kill you anyway, but luckily bullets swerved away that were aimed straight for you. A noob misses a lot and there’s a chance the bullets might stray back on target. A lot of noobs don’t understand cone mechanics anyway, so they won’t even know why they’re doing better than they deserve-- but hey it keeps them playing and the population base healthy. Good to keep general public servers full. See #1 for when you wanna get competitive.

Rewording/explanining just in case someone doesn’t understand the issue:

Playing Counterstrike: Shoot with an ak47/colt, be completely still, point at a target, the first bullet or two or three will go exactly in that spot, GUARANTEED. 4+ bullets recoil kicks in more and bullets fly around wildly.

Playing Team Fortress 2: shoot the engie/scout pistol/Heavy Minigun (standing still if you want, movement doesn’t affect recoil in tf2)… shoot at a target, bullets will randomly pepper around what you’re pointing at, no guarantee that it will hit the dead middle of your crosshair.

Brink SMG’s, so I hear, work like those TF2 weapons. if a guy points at an enemy’s head half a second before, he should win, all things being equal… but since the bullets pepper around your crosshair randomly, there’s an element of luck, and your bullet might just whiz past his ear and he gets to live longer when he doesn’t deserve it.

(SphereCow) #24

[QUOTE=DjIceman;322606]Did I mention that it would be far more likely to lose than win?[/quote] Yeah, you did.

I did. “Compelte and utter random luck.”

You also mentioned the rare case of skilled aim, which you placed as the exception, not the rule.

[QUOTE=DjIceman;322606]“It’s hard to aim because of parkour.” - No, that is in no way what I meant. I meant it is far more easy to get shot in the head while, for example, sliding. And in such a scenario, especially when in an intense firefight, such a headshot would be purely based on luck. Not even an insane amount of skill can help there.[/quote]Beep boop boop. Whatever. Not sure why you’re trying to shoot people while flying around and expecting it to be consistent. If you make the aim that much more consistent while leaping through the air, people will complain about that, too. I personally miss doing 180 degree rail kills after a well placed rocket jump, but these aren’t the times we live in. Besides, headshots don’t kill instantly on almost all of the weapons, so you don’t get killed instantly.

[QUOTE=DjIceman;322606]“You’ll die more often than you kill.” - Once again, as I mentioned above, not what I said.[/Quote].

If it’s far easier to get killed instantly, then yes, that’s what that means.

(SphereCow) #25

What really should have been used is a statistic that determines how accurate weapons are while the mouse moves quickly, like ETQW had. I don’t think Brink has that.

Lighter weapons would be more accurate while being manipulated, while heavier weapons would not. Oh well..

(Codine) #26

Without headshots this game will be even worse. Leave some sort of skill in the game, everything else has already been hand fed to us.

(Glyph) #27

If weapons were 100% accurate then headshots would be a product of skill, not luck. Sadly due to how the bullet spread cone works most headshots are entirely luck based. Even if one player aims center mass while the other aims for the head, chances are that the center mass player will win the encounter and possibly even get a headshot more quickly due to the randomness of the bullet spread.

It’s a tricky topic really because you want headshot to encourage accuracy but the way the game’s mechanics are built it actually encourages the opposite. Ever wonder why most players run a CARB-9 with a drum attachment? Well, it’s not because they are trying to get headshots, that is simply a by-product of the random bullet spread.

(MonoXideAtWork) #28

To the OP:

After reading through several pages of your explanation, I offer a question:

In your opinion, is it advantageous to slide in a gunfight?
What are the pros?
What are the cons?

Do you think you could weigh the advantages/disadvantages strategicly, say applying it in different situations to varie the results?

TL:DR

Do not slide into your enemy from 20 yards. Your nugget will become like a watermelon at a Gallagher Stand up show.

Do slide around corners to dodge gunfire.

Do slide into enemies from the side or behind, thus putting their nugget into range of your fully automatic Sledge-O-Matic.

(Overgear) #29

I’m kinda with this, the amount of times I get headshotted by a carb 9 and lose 1/4 of my health, i get quite upset.
I think his best suggestion was decreasing headshot damage for automatics. Decrease it to 1.2x while other weapons keep the 1.5x for not being full auto.

To above: The disadvantage of sliding is that they end up 20 feet behind you clipping through a wall or desk.

(Traxxy) #30

Whilst I don’t agree with the OP’s proposal to remove headshots from certain weapons or all of them as they add a “skill” to the game ( when the weapons dont fire randomly :stuck_out_tongue: ), I am in favor of changing the bullet spread mechanics…at least for the PC version.

The PS3 and 360 version is why the guns are like this in the first place… to make it easier for them to hit people, so im more against a change on those platforms unless those crowds specifically wanted it also ofc. :slight_smile:

I’d much prefer the W:ET style on PC, where recoil is pretty much the main variable in how accurate you are. Other modifiers can effect the amount of recoil, but the recoil is what is causing you to miss not some random dice roll that determines the angle the bullet leaves my barrel. =o

Bullet drop (true to life) is pretty much a non-factor because of such close quarters maps but bullet drop itself could be used to balance out sniping (if it were needed) should SD change to a more W:ET style of shooting in brink.

(Crytiqal) #31

So if it’s random luck, how is it that YOU get yourself killed instantly way too easy?

(Glyph) #32

What about making the headshot multiplier only work when you are aiming down your sight? This would prevent it from working for hip sprayers but allow them to utilize it if they took the time to aim.

(SphereCow) #33

^^^^^^^^^^

(DjIceman) #34

Because you can get killed? I mean, when you think about it, if you die… You get killed.

I do glimpse over my own kills sometimes on the kill feed and let me tell you, at least 80% of those headshots I’ve supposedly done are 100% non-sense. Especially when using LMGs. For some reason, it’s even easier to get headshots with LMGs.

(TeoH) #35

OP is correct, and for the right reasons. I have no idea what the rest of this thread is about, every other post appears to be from someone smoking pot and rolling their face on the keys.

The spread on SMGs in a typical fight from mid range (say across a room) is at a level where if you are aiming optimally, you have roughly the same chance of landing a shot on someone’s feet as you have on their head. Don’t missunderstand me, as that appears to be the theme of the thread; I am not suggesting aiming is ‘difficult’, i am stating that at mid range firing an SMG with your crosshair directly on the centre of another player, the cone of fire stretches up to the top of their head, and down to their shoes. If hits are registered randomly anywhere in the cone with equal probability, then landing a head or feet shot is pure RNG. Removing location based damage in these situations is a perfectly reasonable way to make combat more consistant, but another solution is to change the way hitscan cones work.

It seems that nowadays it’s the in-thing to have weapons that are completely inaccurate in order to simulate the realistic scenario of someone operating a machinegun with their elbow, to take the responsibility of holding steady aim away from the player by enforcing completely random spread in all directions upon everyone. I assume this sits well with the console crowd because HUR DUR JOYPADS. Being incapable of aiming at anything is certainly less of an issue if the game makes sure that nobody else can effectively aim at anything either by equally gimping everyone.

It might not be ‘realistic’ but from a competitive gaming POV it is preferable for each shot to be consistant, and it’s possible to do this without removing spread. The way you do it is to forget about the stupid notion of simulating the way a real gun works, because real guns are not designed to make good e-sport. Instead you make each individual shot register damage based on a fixed spread pattern that is dense towards the middle of the crosshair, and spread further towards the edges. Like a rapid fire machine shotgun, whose pellets just happen to always fall in a very neat pattern that’s denser in the middle. So imagine every individual shot from an SMG is split into smaller hits that land in an exact consistant pattern every time, centered around the crosshair like this:

Actually the idea of simulating pellets like this is completely unnecessary and could be instead replaced with a kind of gradient calculation which deals more damage depending on how close your crosshair was to target and how much of your screen the target covers, but that’s just an easily visible example.

What this would mean is, you still have the effect of a spread making the weapon less effective over range, and can still scale the spread pattern up to change the ‘accuracy’ based on gun type / scope etc. However there is no longer any RNG involved, and because the pattern is focused on the crosshair it then becomes preferable to actually aim at the head, instead of just aiming at the center of the body and praying. It also has the effect of making movement and attempts to ‘dodge’ attacks viable, because getting out of the center of someone’s sights has a real effect, even though the size of the spread might still cover the broad side of a barn.

Since that’s far too good an idea to ever be implimented into a real game, i’d settle instead for removal or reduction in the location damage scalars on SMG style weapons when not scoped. Also, i think it would really promote movement if the game didn’t utterly cripple your accuracy when sliding or wall bouncing, couldn’t these just keep the same spread as sprinting?

(weeschwee) #36

mmm no. lets not dumb down the game. headshots are fine. you should only spray when up close. spread will not matter as much at closer ranges. i don’t find myself losing gunfights to random accuracy. i lose because either he aimed better, got the jump on me, or his weapon was buffed and my team is slacking.

(Ino) #37

[QUOTE=TeoH;324102]OP is correct, and for the right reasons. I have no idea what the rest of this thread is about, every other post appears to be from someone smoking pot and rolling their face on the keys.
[…]

[…][/QUOTE]

Best post in the whole thread.

OP is correct, although his wording is questionable. Randomness in a FPS game is always bad, it was the same thing with the random crits in TF2. One guy got lucky with a critrocket and killed three people while the other guy aimed two perfect normal rockets and killed noone.

The same applies to the random deviation in BRINK. It’s so annoying to have your sights perfectly on someones head only to see the shots go left and right of it. That’s the main reason for me to use the Bulpdaun because it’s the only accurate SMG. So I do deal out well aimed headshots, but still sometimes someone gets lucky spray headshots on me with the CARB-9.

Randomness needs to go.

I know the SD guys decided to have the game this way so people with great aim don’t destroy entire teams, but I think OPs solution with taking out the headshot multiplier for ARs and SMGs doesn’t hurt this balance.

(Apples) #38

Mmm Just increase the probability to hit in the middle of your crosshair and decrease the probability to hit at the edges of the cone of fire. Its not that hard to implement I guess, “density gradient” and “kriging” are the key words here :wink:

Removing the headshots from a fps is just as silly as saying “remove the jump from mario”

Have a nice work!

Peace

(SphereCow) #39

[QUOTE=Ino;324122]Best post in the whole thread.

OP is correct, although his wording is questionable. Randomness in a FPS game is always bad, it was the same thing with the random crits in TF2. One guy got lucky with a critrocket and killed three people while the other guy aimed two perfect normal rockets and killed noone.

The same applies to the random deviation in BRINK. It’s so annoying to have your sights perfectly on someones head only to see the shots go left and right of it. That’s the main reason for me to use the Bulpdaun because it’s the only accurate SMG. So I do deal out well aimed headshots, but still sometimes someone gets lucky spray headshots on me with the CARB-9.

Randomness needs to go.

I know the SD guys decided to have the game this way so people with great aim don’t destroy entire teams, but I think OPs solution with taking out the headshot multiplier for ARs and SMGs doesn’t hurt this balance.[/QUOTE]

If you’re worried about inaccurate SMGs, use ARs. >: /

(Bullveyr) #40

[QUOTE=Apples;324129]Mmm Just increase the probability to hit in the middle of your crosshair and decrease the probability to hit at the edges of the cone of fire. Its not that hard to implement I guess, “density gradient” and “kriging” are the key words here :wink:

Removing the headshots from a fps is just as silly as saying “remove the jump from mario”

Have a nice work!

Peace[/QUOTE]
This, the fix for this problem isn’t a lowerde HS modifier but having the ablilty to hit the head on purpose and that skill should make a difference.