Grind?

(zenstar) #21

^this.
In a Vs FPS there should be no grind replacement for skill. Ie: unlocks should be aesthetic only. Everyone should be able to jump in on the same level playing field (level = flat, not level = rank) and win on skill and teamwork (which is really just another skill) alone.

The reward for playing a game you enjoy shouldn’t be a shiny new toy. It should be the fun you have playing. Not that I’m knocking things like RPGs but there the focus is on leveling your character. Here the focus should be on shooting other characters with your friends. I think steam achievements are enough of a reward in a shooter. The shooter should be able to stand on it’s own after that.

(BioSnark) #22

I don’t mind that there’s a character progression system so long as it doesn’t interfere with or replace the player progression system. Players should be rewarded for getting better at the game by being able to hit targets more consistently and to maneuver, dodge, and coordinate with their team more effectively. That’s what the “shooter, first and foremost” developer spiel that now goes with every new FPS RPG should translate to.

(Humate) #23

if unlocking things is the goal that drives you and takes as much presidence over the standard game itself then yeah I can see how some could see it as a ‘reward’.

If the medals and stuff are used as a game within a game - I can understand that to an extent. Its when theres the belief that theres some sort of significance behind the medals that it can be a little bit annoying. I used to alias quite a lot in etqw, and the amount of crap I used to get for not having a decent rank, was ridiculous. So I would go out of my way to kill them in creative ways, to hint that im actually not a noob. Which would make them rage even more.

You could say, that became my little game within the game.

(SockDog) #24

The problem seems to be that it’s too easy to tap into these basic but deep human behaviours and exploit the large number of people who operate on this level. Remove the FPS and you have any number of click click click social facebook apps which everyone including your granny enjoy. The problem for us (some of us anyway) is that this click click click impacts the core game and when that IS the only reason you are playing then you’re left with an empty experience.

As I asked in the earlier post.

Why do you need the grind though? Why can’t you simply enjoy clocking up 1000hrs playing a game you enjoy? You are enjoying the game aren’t you?

I don’t go out for a nice meal and ask the waiter to feed me treats for finishing a course. I certainly don’t go out and eat a ****ty meal only to get a treat between courses!

(tokamak) #25

I think everyone is being unfair here, grinding doesn’t make you much more powerful. The most important stuff is gotten in the first rank, and then the juicy stuff is gained from the challenges. If you think you’re still at an advantage then you’re playing the game wrong.

Brink handled the grinding as an introduction course. It didn’t harm the game, but at the same time it’s a missed opportunity to make the choices you could be making any more interesting.

The per session system as present in W;ET and ETQW is superior. These two games were insanely addictive because the stuff you build up in the first hour or so only started bearing it’s fruits in the next hour, so you would always want to sit out the entire campaign session. It certainly made me miss a lot of sleep back in the days.

I didn’t consider it grinding either, the xp was attributed cleverly and you never had to go out of your way to get the xp. Simply doing great work for your team always got you the most xp (battle-sense played a huge part in it, it was hard to ‘play’ that system). It turned xp from simply token collecting to a real resource-gathering system where you needed to make meaningful choices in short ‘career’.

(Humate) #26

Brink handled the grinding as an introduction course.

Brink is an introduction course.

(.Chris.) #27

Downed fire, self revive and such, all abilities you unlock later on that are quite over powered, any incredible lame (nothing like killing someone using whole clip only to be killed whilst reloading from downed fire) but that’s for another topic.

That was just weapons, everything else is earned in the main game, such as those abilities just mentioned.

Yeah, although I generally don’t care for it sometimes I did like to play long sessions from time to time to try get as many maxed out classes as possible in one campaign, when playing with regular people on a common server and everyone starts the campaign at same time can produce some healthy competition.

Sadly for the medal stuff in ET:QW it was, remember all the fliers who just spammed the enemies base deployables till they got all the deplopyable kill medals and such instead of helping the team more directly?

(tokamak) #28

Okay the medal and statistics and such that was a grind. And a poorly constructed one at that which led to some perverse incentives in the game, the statpadders.

But that was all cosmetic. The complaint here is that you would need to grind the game to get an advantage, which is simply not true. Downed fire is a double edged sword and things like self-revive have such a huge cool down that you’d be hard pressed to call it substantial.

A fully decked out character versus a, say level 10 character is a fair match up albeit mostly random due to the low accuracy. Come to think of it, the low accuracy is a great way to shovel any imbalance under the carpet.

(zenstar) #29

[QUOTE=tokamak;376064]Okay the medal and statistics and such that was a grind. And a poorly constructed one at that which led to some perverse incentives in the game, the statpadders.

But that was all cosmetic. The complaint here is that you would need to grind the game to get an advantage, which is simply not true. Downed fire is a double edged sword and things like self-revive have such a huge cool down that you’d be hard pressed to call it substantial.

A fully decked out character versus a, say level 10 character is a fair match up albeit mostly random due to the low accuracy. Come to think of it, the low accuracy is a great way to shovel any imbalance under the carpet.[/QUOTE]

If you take the extremes, level 1 vs level 24, then the grind has made a fair difference. It is largely lessened by the speed at which you level and the relatively low level cap but there’s still a reward for time put in that mitigates skill of the individual players up to that point. An advantage, no matter how small, is an advantage. Look at the QQ around the greeneye scope. IMO a very small advantage if an advantage at all, but people complained bitterly about it not being exactly the same as the coga.

One of the first things that you need to buy is the life increase. That’s an advantage given to you for grinding and another pip of life makes a big difference. Take 2 perfectly equally skilled players. one level 1 and one level 2 with the pip of extra life. They meet on the battlefield. level 2 will always beat level 1 if all other factors are equal (same number of random misses / headshots / etc). That’s an advantage from grinding. It may be a small advantage but it’s tilting the balance in the favour of the player that has put more time into the game.

I kinda like the leveling for the first character as an introduction, but every character made after that should be created at your highest character level. I see no reason to have to grind again for a new character simply because you wanted to change the look or try a different class. Classes are not different enough to require 24 levels of xp to learn them.

(tokamak) #30

Level 1 isn’t fair though. Level 10 isn’t a monumental task and gets you everything you need.

(Zekariah) #31

[QUOTE=zenstar;376066]If you take the extremes, level 1 vs level 24, then the grind has made a fair difference. It is largely lessened by the speed at which you level and the relatively low level cap but there’s still a reward for time put in that mitigates skill of the individual players up to that point. An advantage, no matter how small, is an advantage. Look at the QQ around the greeneye scope. IMO a very small advantage if an advantage at all, but people complained bitterly about it not being exactly the same as the coga.

One of the first things that you need to buy is the life increase. That’s an advantage given to you for grinding and another pip of life makes a big difference. Take 2 perfectly equally skilled players. one level 1 and one level 2 with the pip of extra life. They meet on the battlefield. level 2 will always beat level 1 if all other factors are equal (same number of random misses / headshots / etc). That’s an advantage from grinding. It may be a small advantage but it’s tilting the balance in the favour of the player that has put more time into the game.

I kinda like the leveling for the first character as an introduction, but every character made after that should be created at your highest character level. I see no reason to have to grind again for a new character simply because you wanted to change the look or try a different class. Classes are not different enough to require 24 levels of xp to learn them.[/QUOTE]

I wouldn’t really refer to ANYTHING in Brink as a grind. It’s a short term levelling system that requires very little time played to max out. A “Grind”, I think, is exactly what it sounds like: Grinding away giving HUGE amounts of hours.

Going back to some of the comments about click click click play, you make a good comparison there. But NOONE should be put down for enjoying what the general masses also enjoy. Zynga’s Mafia Wars is a big hit for a reason: It’s addictive. (I should know, I was on the MW patches for a long time). Integrating this into FPSs is the next logical step.

But it’s not just FPSs that are copping it. Racing Simulators, Fighting, Action Adventures and even 2D scrollers are getting the “click click click” treatment these days. And it is not affecting the purists or those who just play to play. Those types of gamers can still do what they do regardless. As for those who like to level, it just adds another dimension to the game and keeps those ones around a little longer.

(tokamak) #32

“Grinding” for ET was much more addictive though. That ZING 'Congrazulazions on yor promozion herr gefreiter" was just pure conditioning.

(Zekariah) #33

Exactly the perks I’m talking about.

(.Chris.) #34

I had 50 hours played according to steam, my only character was at level 19.

(zenstar) #35

Level difference is level difference. If you jump into the game on a new char you’re level 1 and have to do something for a few hours before you’re level 10. Like I say, most of the grind is mitigated in this game, but a small grind is still a grind just like a small advantage is still an advantage.
The question is: does the small difference warrant any major change? I say the first leveling up is enough grind for the game, anything after that is superfluous and actually detracts from trying a new class / ability selection.

If you want multiple characters at top level then it is HUGE amounts of hours.
Getting a single character maxxed isn’t too difficult, but I like my “pure” classes that only have a few “alternate class” points. For me to have each class at max means I have to go through that grind 4 times. Then if I want any more generic characters (like a 50/50 medic soldier) i have to do it again.
I know that there are people out there with all their characters maxxed. I’m not saying it’s difficult. I’m saying that it is a grind because A: it takes time to do (and not an insignificant amount of time) and B: you need to repeat it for every character.
Not to mention that you can’t test an ability without losing a level if you want to switch it out (more grind).

My solution would be (as I stated): grind up one character while the leveling is still fun and new. From that point on simply allow new characters to be created at the same level.

I’d say leveling up the characters fits in with the definition of a grind (doing the same task repeatedly for a reward). It’s not as grindy as other games, I’ll admit, but it’s still a grind.

(tokamak) #36

[QUOTE=zenstar;376086]Level difference is level difference. If you jump into the game on a new char you’re level 1 and have to do something for a few hours before you’re level 10. Like I say, most of the grind is mitigated in this game, but a small grind is still a grind just like a small advantage is still an advantage.
The question is: does the small difference warrant any major change? I say the first leveling up is enough grind for the game, anything after that is superfluous and actually detracts from trying a new class / ability selection.[/QUOTE]

You have to do the least amount of effort for the most important upgrades and the most amount of effort for the least important upgrades. This means that there’s no substantial advantage in having more hours under your belt. What this system does mean is that you have to commit to your choices. Where you see people reluctant to try new stuff, I see people giving the abilities they’ve picked a chance and learning to truly use them instead of hopping to new builds whenever something doesn’t work the way they like.

(wolfnemesis75) #37

Brink already has unlockable stuff. Now it just needs even more. It needs persistent character cosmetic unlocks: Badges, Medals, Titles, Skins, Costumes, Outfits, and Tattoos. All stuff in the words of Paul Westwood: To show-off what a Badass you’re to all your friends. So make it so you can show all this stuff off too like a viewable player card in the scoreboard before, during, and after a match. Make it so everyone knows you’re not only a Security Veteran, but have moved up the ranks to Chief, or Squad Leader. And you’re not only a badass Medic, but have moved to the top of the Medic Ranks to Chief Bio Chemist.

Done. :slight_smile:

(.Chris.) #38

See what I mean, it’s a really big deal for some, need to try think way to keep feeding their addiction whilst not ruining the experience for the rest.

Keeping all that stuff confined to a campaign mode with some of the suggestions made here would be ideal in my opinion, other modes like Stopwatch and Objective can be kept clean.

(wolfnemesis75) #39

If it’s confined to a campaign mode, its just not Brink. That’s my point, Brink has already taken the path down the road, now its time to keep going. No sense turning back now when that’s still one of the coolest aspects of Brink. It just needs more. With the level cap and Rank cap that’s specific to abilities, Brink needed to have Rank progression that has to do solely with Bragging Rights and Cosmetic rewards: Badges, Medals, Etc. And that’s just tons of fun. :slight_smile:

(zenstar) #40

I agree that the most important stuff is unlocked once (ie: the weapons and attachments) but the abilities make a fair difference. Again, I’ll agreee that getting to level 10 get’s you most of the important stuff for a class and that it’s easy enough to get there.

I’m happy with a system that makes you commit to your choices but it does come with the drawback of people being less willing to experiment with the available options. The grind is still there and each time you need to do it it makes you less likely to try another character after that.

Worst case scenario: someone tries 1 of the 2 most horrible choices they could make first. They then try again and choose the 2nd most horrible choice. Are they going to try a third time or are they going to drop the game? (horrible choice being relative to the player: the class/build that results in the least fun for that person). They might have had tonnes of fun with their third or fourth choice, but if they have to grind to get to it and they’ve had 2 bad (or even mediocre) experiences, chances are they’ll not bother.

Of course that’s an extreme example to try and get my point across but it does show how lessening the grind each successive time might go to creating a better experience. Maybe even if it was just a bonus to XP based on other characters that have a higher level? A buddy character lending a helping hand if you will.

Of course this is all my opinion. Some people really do like the whole leveling thing and would rather there were 100 levels. Personally I couldn’t be bothered to make a third character because of the leveling. Luckily I enjoy the 2 I have, but who knows if a deep soldier build or a deep medic build would provide more fun for me over my deep engineer/slight soldier build or my deep operative/slight medic build? I certainly don’t but I’m probably not going to find out unless leveling is made easier.

Basically: I don’t think grind of any real sort (other than a tutorial which is how I see the first levelling experience) adds anything to a good MP FPS. None of the ETs needed it for any real progression that wasn’t purely cosmetic.

I do like the customization and character choices but let’s not kid ourselves into thinking this is an RPG FPS.

EDIT: Can’t rep you again Toka (apparently I’ve done it too recently)… but you do provide a good discussion. Someone rep Toka for me.