Grind?

[Chris2]

Something that has cropped up recently in a few threads is the issues of grinding, having something to unlock as you play along.

It’s been said that Brink has too little grind or folk are getting all the unlocks that are in the game too quickly. It was suggested that by simply adding more and more abilities, clothes and ranks/levels to unlock it would keep people quiet and also boost play retention.

However how about a different approach?

Let’s have a look at SD’s first title Wolfenstein: Enemy Territory (W:ET)

It suddenly dawned upon me that this game actually has some ‘grind’, as you play a campaign over 3 maps long (more if the server allows), you unlock class abilities and universal abilities as you progress, silent footsteps, faster repair, more ammo, akimbo pistols etc etc. You also get higher military ranks as you level up with XP. All feels very rewarding I’m sure for those who like this sort of stuff.

However the difference in W:ET is that once the campaign is over the slate is wiped clean for all, everyone starts the next campaign from zero. You have to unlock all them goodies all over again. Personally I think this is quite nice, I’ve never been a fan of persistent unlocks in multiplayer FPS games. Assuming you start a campaign from the start everyone has equal chance, no one has all the upgrades and are able to dominate on the back of that.

Now onto SD’s second title Enemy Territory: Quake Wars (ET:QW)

Again we have the same business as before, during play you unlock your abilities that are valid till the next campaign. However ET:QW introduced persistent stats, ranks and medals. You could unlock medals by meeting certain criteria whilst playing that were tracked all the time, not just within a campaign. There was such criteria as kill 100 people with a pistol, destroy 50 deployables, hack 25 objectives, and such, they were broken into categories, class, vehicle , weapon and universal and probably some others.

Most importantly upon getting a medal your rank went up by 1, your rank would be displayed ingame next to your name in the player list, you had something to show off basically. Unfortunately in ET:QW that rank could only be achieved in ranked server which has some unfortunate affects, however that’s for a different topic.

So back to Brink(2).

I don’t know if it can be checked or not but assuming the average player sticks around for lets say 4 maps before leaving a server then maybe you could build an unlock ability system set around campaigns that are 4 maps long or so. So lets assume the next title has twelve maps, that’s 3 separate campaigns to have a bash at trying to get as many unlocks as possible for those who like to grind, as before once the campaign ends the slate is wiped clean.

However keep ET:QW’s ranking system but make this more in line with Brink, how about once you get a new medal/rank, you unlock some appearance customisation options. Some to appeal further to the grinders that gives them something pretty to look at.

Thoughts?

[Nexolate]

The only time I’ve ever liked persistent unlocks in a game was Battlefield 2, where the process was so long that it was never about getting all the toys quickly. It was just something that happened naturally every so often. That and they were merely alternate weapons for existing kits that weren’t that much more powerful (as I remember).

That being said, a system like this does sound interesting. I unfortunately haven’t had the pleasure of playing any SD titles besides Brink, so I can’t comment on how exactly this kind of system would work. It does however remind me of games like Counter Strike where if you died you’d lose all your weapons and have to rebuy them, something which was not always immediately viable and added a small reward for doing well.

I’d certainly be interesting in trying a system like this, if Brink 2 ever became a reality.

Regards,
Nexo

[zenstar]

TBH: I don’t think grind or lack of grind is going to help.
The few levels and unlocks there are are only there to help new players learn the style of game. IMO once you have one max level characters all your other characters should start max level. Sure we may still need to learn the class, but once you’ve got the game knowledge the class knowledge is easy to pick up.

Adding a simple badge system that levels with xp (to some crazy high level) and maybe a kill-still (like a killcam but simply a static shot of the person who killed you) with the badge on it (for bragging rights since we seem to have to give those to some people) might make a couple of people happy but I think the bad launch and fumbled PR since then has meant that the boat has already sailled on this title.
If we’re looking at a Brink 2 then I say they should drop the levels and unlocks for weapons. Keep the clothing and or some sort of badge system on persistent unlock to have the grind if it’s needed, but this isn’t an MMORPG. Do we really need grind?
None of the great “pure MP shooters” had grind. The whole point about MP shooters is that they’re a level playing field where your skill is what makes the difference.

Even TF2 has no real grind. There may be some alternate weapons to get your hands on but getting them is easy (easier if you just buy them) and (in theory at least) they are all balanced and equal. The difference comes from player skill and teamwork. And not forced teamwork either. No buff parties. Classes have jobs and if they do them correctly the whole team moves forward. Sure, temporary buffs may be cool (engineering buff that lasts 15 seconds instead of a life) because that means you actually have to think about using it and not just spam everyone at spawn until you’re out of pips.

If there is a Brink 2 there will need to be lots of sitting down and discussing major focus changes. There’s a lot of potential but it’s hidden deep and SD will need to get out the shovels to really mine out a gem (did I push that metaphor too far??? Nah… it’s good).

[DarkangelUK]

Also worth noting the weapon unlock stuff was obtained by doing challenges and not by actually playing the main section of the game. I believe it’s only skills, abilities and clothing that unlock with standard gameplay in Brink.

Personally I prefer the even field of RtCW, I was never bothered with the unlocks even with W:ET or ETQW. I also find persistent stats affect the way I play the game, especially when a friend plays the same game and insists on comparing stats solely so they can poke fun if mine or lower ¬_¬

[Humate]

The unlocks themselves in etqw, weren’t that significant… which was good since it meant you could join the last map of a 3 map campaign and still destroy… or in most cases, compete.

But the interesting thing is, due to the better players disregarding XP, the “less experienced/skilled players” generally had more unlocks in the course of a campaign. And this did a relatively good job of acting as a carrot, even though they were getting smashed most of the time. They stayed on the server because they invested 2 maps getting level 4 self arming mines. Theres no way they were going to rage quit, when they had that.

As far as proper grind goes, I actually think the medal / ribbon thing is the best way to go.
Completionists dont care what you offer them, as long as they unlock it all. You could could offer them animated tapir porn, and they would go all out to get it. So theres no need to over-simplify a game and break every single freaking gameplay mechanic into bits and pieces for the people who like the grind. Unless ofcourse you want to dumb down your game, and you cbfed creating proper tutorials.

[Chris2]

TBH: I don’t think grind or lack of grind is going to help.

True they are more pressing issues but as this topic cropped up in other threads, thought maybe nice to have a thread about it and some suggestions.

[QUOTE=zenstar;375672]Adding a simple badge system that levels with xp (to some crazy high level) and maybe a kill-still (like a killcam but simply a static shot of the person who killed you) with the badge on it (for bragging rights since we seem to have to give those to some people) might make a couple of people happy but I think the bad launch and fumbled PR since then has meant that the boat has already sailled on this title.
If we’re looking at a Brink 2 then I say they should drop the levels and unlocks for weapons. Keep the clothing and or some sort of badge system on persistent unlock to have the grind if it’s needed, but this isn’t an MMORPG. Do we really need grind?
None of the great “pure MP shooters” had grind. The whole point about MP shooters is that they’re a level playing field where your skill is what makes the difference. [/QUOTE]

That’s why only clothes are persistent and not abilities and weapons. To keep level playing field whilst rewarding players for doing well within a campaign environment.

I should have mentioned, I wouldn’t apply this to none campaign modes, objective and stopwatch. This is purely an idea for a campaign mode to please people who like this sort of thing and to keep it out of the rest of the game.

Even TF2 has no real grind. There may be some alternate weapons to get your hands on but getting them is easy (easier if you just buy them) and (in theory at least) they are all balanced and equal. The difference comes from player skill and teamwork. And not forced teamwork either. No buff parties. Classes have jobs and if they do them correctly the whole team moves forward. Sure, temporary buffs may be cool (engineering buff that lasts 15 seconds instead of a life) because that means you actually have to think about using it and not just spam everyone at spawn until you’re out of pips.

Yeah I agree, many servers in ET and ET:QW have the upgrades turned off.

The buffs I’ll be making thread for later in week once I have my full idea worked out.

If there is a Brink 2 there will need to be lots of sitting down and discussing major focus changes. There’s a lot of potential but it’s hidden deep and SD will need to get out the shovels to really mine out a gem (did I push that metaphor too far??? Nah… it’s good).

Yep.

Also worth noting the weapon unlock stuff was obtained by doing challenges and not by actually playing the main section of the game. I believe it’s only skills, abilities and clothing that unlock with standard gameplay in Brink.

Ah yeah, forgot this, not sure what to do about the weapons, perhaps it can stay like this, everything else though if they were to stay I’d rather they be confined to an ET/ETQW campaign mode and for objective mode and stopwatch mode to be left out of it.

Personally I prefer the even field of RtCW, I was never bothered with the unlocks even with W:ET or ETQW. I also find persistent stats affect the way I play the game, especially when a friend plays the same game and insists on comparing stats solely so they can poke fun if mine or lower ¬_¬

Yeah that’s why would like it just in a campaign mode, those who like badges and such can stick there whilst rest of us play on objective servers, I assume they are a lot more players out there who do like all this ‘crap’ than those who don’t so would be a bit shortsighted to not cater for them in some way.

The unlocks themselves in etqw, weren’t that significant… which was good since it meant you could join the last map of a 3 map campaign and still destroy… or in most cases, compete.

Yeah, I wouldn’t just port over the current abilities to this idea, would need looking at again to what abilities players can unlock.

But the interesting thing is, due to the better players disregarding XP, the “less experienced/skilled players” generally had more unlocks in the course of a campaign. And this did a relatively good job of acting as a carrot, even though they were getting smashed most of the time. They stayed on the server because they invested 2 maps getting level 4 self arming mines. Theres no way they were going to rage quit, when they had that.

Yeah, that’s why I think it be nice to return to this method, as things stand if they rage quit after 1 map its OK cause they keep their unlocks and XP and stuff, there’s no incentive to stick around.

[QUOTE=Humate;375685]As far as proper grind goes, I actually think the medal / ribbon thing is the best way to go.
Completionists dont care what you offer them, as long as they unlock it all. You could could offer them animated tapir porn, and they would go all out to get it. So theres no need to over-simplify a game and break every single freaking gameplay mechanic into bits and pieces for the people who like the grind. Unless ofcourse you want to dumb down your game, and you cbfed creating proper tutorials.[/QUOTE]

Yep.

Humate, where the hell your post gone?

[shirosae]

Well, aside from the ranked server farce ETQW’s grind worked reasonably well, at least in comparison to Brink. It did cause people to play classes that weren’t needed (hello covops) just to get ranks, but the unlocks themselves weren’t terrible.

I had another thought about this, and Guild Wars came to mind (again). Guild Wars is a no-sub MMO(ish)RPG that was originally designed with a PvP focus. The idea was that you would buy the game, and then level your character up through the single player campaign, learning skills and learning to play the game. You’d then finish the campaign, hit level 20, and ‘graduate’ to PvP play.

PvP wouldn’t have any grind*, there would be no time over skill advantages, and everyone would be on a level playing field. People could bypass the grind and make ‘PvP only’ characters with all the skills they’d unlocked on their account.

*Guild Wars combat basically functions by way of a skillbar with 8 slots on it, into which you can place 8 abilities that you’ve learned, called skills. You learned these by doing quests or talking to an NPC in the single player campaign… or by buying them with points you got for doing stuff in PvP.

My suggestion: Brink 2 (I hope it’s a new IP tbh, I’ve had enough of Bethesda’s ‘lol money is tight let’s do no testing’ approach to new IP AAA game design) just steals GW’s single/multiplayer/grind model.

You choose to play multiplayer or singleplayer. ‘Mingleplayer’ dies in a fire.

If you choose singleplayer, you make a new base character, and you play through a proper single player campaign, that slowly releases abilities to you as you learn the game. The challenges from Brink go in here. You choose the order that you go through things, you pick up abilities on your account, you learn how to play, and you get a single player campaign that satisfies people who like those things.

You finish the campaign, and then you can then use your single player character in PvP, with all the stuff unlocked on your account. XP unlocks bling.

If you choose Multiplayer, you make your character with whatever is unlocked on your account, and you start playing the game. Xp’s unlock bling, and that’s it. I don’t even care what the bling is.

Singleplayer should have a progression, and some grind. It should come slowly enough that it teaches players how to use the stuff as it comes. Maybe this should be the actual focus of the single player? Basically it starts off as a set of challenges with obvious solutions (You are a Soldier, plant an explosive here), and slowly develop into more multiplayer-esque maps with options (Pick w/e class, you need to make sure these objectives get done), with the goal being to teach players to think about the match in the way they’d need to to survive PvP.

Multiplayer should have no persistent progression other than bling stuff, and no grind. PvP is about PvP.

Design your singleplayer stuff as if it were being used for multiplayer (because it is). If your maps, guns, player movement and core mechanics work in PvP, they’ll work in single player.

You can even have a multiplayer game mode in the middle with all the grinding turned on, so you grind your character out in a multiplayer context, for people who really must play on servers where class balance is dictated by your EXP status and not the match in question.

Singleplayer.
Grindfest.
Hardcore (as in the use Rahdo used to talk about).

DLC comes along and provides new storyline single player stuff for people who enjoy that, or for people who just want to support Brink. The maps made for this single player are released for free for multiplayer, so it doesn’t split the community.

SD get their Herp-de-derp grindfest single player that apparently gave them the sales they got (I doubt that, but okay), and even a consoleque grindfest multiplayer, but there’s still a proper game lying underneath for anyone who wants it.

[gooey79]

Why do I think of ‘grind’ as being a word I don’t associate with ‘fun’? Unless it’s grind-ing, and no; not in video games.

The less grind the better. I liked the ET:QW model just fine although the medals did make people play a certain way for the wrong reasons. Couldn’t count the number of times I’ve seen someone destroying deployables on Volcano when we’re all inside the second objective, for example…

Would love to see a game that’s just fun to play so grind doesn’t matter.

Lol @ Shirosae’s ‘Mingleplayer dies in a fire’ too.

[jfunk]

I don’t think “grind” has ANY place in a competitive multiplayer FPS. At all. It’s completely counterproductive to the level playing field.

I also don’t like having to play through a single player campaign to unlock the abilities for MP. What if I don’t want to play single player?

It’s supposed to be about the competition. Let the players jump in and play against each other with all the same equipment and abilities regardless of who has played how many hours. May the better team win. That’s how it should be.

This entire concept of people “earning the right to be better” than others via logging more hours is just so broken I cannot even fathom how it’s managed to get this hold it currently has on online games. PRACTICE is the only advantage a person who has hours a day to play games should have over those that do not. Why is it necessary that they also have their “skill” artificially inflated in ANY way?

[tokamak]

This entire concept of people “earning the right to be better” than others via logging more hours is just so broken I cannot even fathom how it’s managed to get this hold it currently has on online games.

Yeah well just read the original post, you’re just responding to the thread title.

[Hot-Wire]

Never liked the idea of having your slate wiped clean. I’m one those who like to keep the stuff I unlock and then fool around with all the things I’ve unlocked thus far.

This would kill the game faster for me, since I would be all like “What? I’m not doing that again, **** that.”

Of course making a new character is a bit different. I have 10 characters already. The difference is that with new characters you still have your old ones. Having them back to zero after reaching the end is like constantly losing your save file. I’m definitely not a fan >_>.

[tangoliber]

I hate having to unlock stuff. Choosing abilities for a character is fine though. I wish that every time we start a new character, they give us 20 or 24 ability points to apply as we desire.

[BROTOX]

[QUOTE=Hot-Wire;375838]Never liked the idea of having your slate wiped clean. I’m one those who like to keep the stuff I unlock and then fool around with all the things I’ve unlocked thus far.

This would kill the game faster for me, since I would be all like “What? I’m not doing that again, **** that.”

Of course making a new character is a bit different. I have 10 characters already. The difference is that with new characters you still have your old ones. Having them back to zero after reaching the end is like constantly losing your save file. I’m definitely not a fan >_>.[/QUOTE]

I’m with you on this wire. I’ve always considered starting a new character as “prestiging” in Brink but better. Getting all ten characters to lvl 24 is grind enough for me. And if that is not enough then I can always start a new profile under a different name and start all over again!

[SockDog]

Why do you need the grind though? Why can’t you simply enjoy clocking up 1000hrs playing a game you enjoy? You are enjoying the game aren’t you?

edit:
And to the OP. I got stink eyed when suggesting this pre-release but I’d like to see a L4D director AI actually balance out pub games with abilities and weapons. Make the grind and progression entirely team based and remove the selfishness that ruins games. It would also means the habit of stacking teams results in a less enjoyable game for the stackers.

People may shout unfair, random. I personally feel a imbalanced team is pretty unfair and random, or players manipulating the XP system to unlock something (persistent or not) is pretty random.

Guess we’ll wait until Valve does it though.

[sereNADE]

if you want to keep what you have unlocked in a “persistent” system then why would you want to play against an opponent who may have considerably less skills and weapons unlocked?

[Chris2]

I never even got 1 character to level 20 never mind 10 of them to level 24.

The whole thing never sat well with me along with numerous other aspects of the game, I really wished there was a separate game mode that just concentrated on playing the game without all the unlock business. I just don’t get this blurring the lines stuff between single player and multi player and adding in RPG elements, just want a solid objective team based game that SD managed to deliver twice before.

[INF3RN0]

I get my grind on in MMORPGs and @ da clubs. Doesn’t belong here, and the way it was done in the past was better. Aesthetic items should be the only persistent unlocks in a competitive FPS game.

[Zekariah]

“Grind” may be too harsh a term for this thread. Really what seems to be suggested is “Recognition Rewards”.

A “Grind” is to lvl up to to be able to flog the living daylights out of your competitors. It’s also to unlock certain items to allow yourself to progress in the game, campaign or multiplayer.

“Recognition Rewards” are things that provide boasting rights or aesthetic customization. But they do not change gameplay in any way, shape or form. Badges or medals are a good example, as well as clothing.

I’m all for RRs as it keeps the regular players interested, or at least rewards their loyalty. But hours played should not be a factor, as non-participating players are a pain in the ass! Contributions to gameplay or completing certain challenges over a LONG period should be rewarded.

However, Grinding should be left for the MMORPGs. Although I LOVE lvling up, creating an unfair advantage for sloggers over fairly new players is not what FPSs are about. Brinks abilities and weapons are about right, I reckon. But they should have a medal/rank system for those that have stuck around.

[wolfnemesis75]

[QUOTE=Zekariah;375871]“Grind” may be too harsh a term for this thread. Really what seems to be suggested is “Recognition Rewards”.

A “Grind” is to lvl up to to be able to flog the living daylights out of your competitors. It’s also to unlock certain items to allow yourself to progress in the game, campaign or multiplayer.

“Recognition Rewards” are things that provide boasting rights or aesthetic customization. But they do not change gameplay in any way, shape or form. Badges or medals are a good example, as well as clothing.

I’m all for RRs as it keeps the regular players interested, or at least rewards their loyalty. But hours played should not be a factor, as non-participating players are a pain in the ass! Contributions to gameplay or completing certain challenges over a LONG period should be rewarded.

However, Grinding should be left for the MMORPGs. Although I LOVE lvling up, creating an unfair advantage for sloggers over fairly new players is not what FPSs are about. Brinks abilities and weapons are about right, I reckon. But they should have a medal/rank system for those that have stuck around.[/QUOTE]I am onboard with Zekariah on this one. I look at its as Recognition Rewards, Badges or Medals, moving up the ranks within each faction and class: All awesome things. Unlocking cosmetic stuff that doesn’t directly affect game balance, its just boasting rights and aesthetic. Showing you’ve reached the level of Chief within the Security or Squad Leader in Resistance or you are a Biochemist rather than just a standard Medic. You’ve unlocked a higher degree/title within not only your class, but your preferred factions. Add in some clothing items, and customizable looks to display this higher level, like an Eye Patch, or Riddick goggles or something like that, and you’d add much more re-play and excitement to progression.

[DarkangelUK]

Depends on your view of the game and what you want to get out of it. If you just want to play the game the way it was intended and not have to faff around with unlocking stuff then it’s a grind, if unlocking things is the goal that drives you and takes as much presidence over the standard game itself then yeah I can see how some could see it as a ‘reward’. Sometimes though I think people are far more driven by unlocking things than actually just enjoying what the game was meant to be, almost like bribing the gamer to keep playing for the unlock rather than for fun or the desire to improve. There is the middle ground as well and some can get equal enjoyment from both which is understandable.