Grenade Shooting


(Jimmy James) #41

Meaning you are ignoring the part about grenades being on a cooldown timer so they actually can’t be spammed and doing relatively minor damage as they were designed to be an assist weapon. Also, considering that it costs a supply pip, in most situations that pip could be put to better use.

Here are some suggestions. If you are getting killed by grenades pay more attention to your life. Maybe you need to capture/upgrade a health command post? Maybe you need to find a medic to boost your health? And when you take damage try to find some cover so you have a chance to regen your health.

Also, what platform are you playing on? Because I have no problems aiming my weapon and dropping the enemy when I’m knocked down on the PC.

-JJ


(Humate) #42

I didnt ignore it. Its irrelevant.
And thank you for trying to give me advice :slight_smile: Much appreciated but it isnt needed.

As for the platform, I’m a PC player that played etqw competitively for 5 seasons.


(thesuzukimethod) #43

On Ps3, i can confirm that grenade shooting does work on enemy frags (at least on the escort duty challenge, which was the most reliable way i could get lone guy lobbing repeated grenades at me w/ consistency).

I got tired of trying to shoot them while he was throwing them (and bots never seem to cook them), but I hit quite a few in the air while i was trying (never soon enough to do him damage though, but i assume that would be the case).

This is actually a really nice counter to the type grenade spamming you guys are describing (especially if it’s true that on PC you can only shoot your own), since a firewall of players doing this to each other just wastes a bunch of supplies since most of them probably dont make it to the other side (astute observations/comments as always, JJ)

anyway. it’s pretty clear that we (ps3 compared to PC) cant continue this conversation* - not b/c it’s not been civil, but b/c the terms of the scenario appear to be different (which helps explain the discrepancy between our experiences), so if not apples and oranges, it’s at least oranges and nectarines.

*or rather, I’m going to back out of this convo, since my experiences on ps3 are irrelevant to this conversation.


(Jimmy James) #44

Maybe I misunderstood you. I thought you were saying people could spam grenades:

[QUOTE=Humate;351315]
Theres no point hyping up a game, saying “we have taken no skill kills out of the game” and then making spam a better option, over a gun.[/QUOTE]

My bad if you meant something else,
JJ


(Thundermuffin) #45

[QUOTE=Jimmy James;351350]Maybe I misunderstood you. I thought you were saying people could spam grenades:

My bad if you meant something else,
JJ[/QUOTE]

You do realize that in a 6v6 match you can use 1 grenade every respawn wave most of the time, right? Every time the offense comes, your whole team is able to spam 6 grenades and most likely kill most of them because of that. Even if you don’t kill them by the time the rest of them try to coordinate a push, your nade will be recharged and you’ll be able to toss it again and knock out whichever ones were left. If you’re able to use a grenade every respawn wave (and everyone does!) that’s spam.

I liked ET:QW’s way of grenades way more than putting them on a timer, to be honest; at least in comp you couldn’t regenerate your grenades and it put the defense at a disadvantage.

Even during a pub match grenade shooting dominates, because most people rush in at the same time so it hits a couple people or people are roaming around on their own and are easily ganked.


(ZernoK) #46

Grenade cooldown is reset on respawn, doesn’t matter if you used it 1sec before you died it will still be available on respawn.


(Humate) #47

No, I meant that theres no counter to someone nade shooting you in the moment.
A player can take any popular weapon, spray it at someone and nade shoot and the result will be a kill.
None of that takes any skill whatsoever. The spraying part, nor the nade shooting. On top of that, theres no defensive counter to it. Its not something you can see happening in the moment so that you can take the necessary action to avoid ( like the blue smoke in an airstrike :wink:).

What you can do however is you can take note of the players outfit and name, that way you can try to avoid them head on and flank. Or if you see them, you can play their game and beat them to the punch. But at the end of the day - the kill is still a no skill kill… hence the big quote. In fact the spray nature of the weapons make nearly every kill a no skill kill, but thats a discussion for another thread.


(Kurushi) #48

If everyone can shoot nades then just be more selective about how you throw yours, or shoot theirs back.

As for teams all running in with 6 nades at once, that’s part of the game, you should know where danger lies and where teams meet from the spawn rush.

Shooting nades works both ways, it rarely kills you instantly and you’re vulnerable in doing so.

It’s part of the game, there are counters, it’s not a problem


(ZernoK) #49

Find me one counter to grenade shooting, please do.


(thesuzukimethod) #50

this is a slippage of your argument. there is no counter per se to grenade shooting, same as there’s not a counter to getting shot, getting melee’d, etc. (other than shooting back, grenade-ing back, meleeing back, etc)…

there may be counters to grenade shooting/spamming as a strategy (decoys to draw out all the nades at once, flanking, USGL to turn the tables on them, etc.), and they might not work… (this is actually your argument, right?)

So I’m not unconvinced that a team could exploit g-shooting to get some cheap kills, even hold a room/chokepoint that way for a while, but I’m similarly unconvinced that there is no way to counter the larger behavior (spamming).

I’m also unconvinced this isnt effectively what exedore was saying (same as USGL) - I’m saying so, b/c I’ve felt incredibly cheap rolling into a room, meeting 2-3 dudes head on and immediately USGLing them for a quick knockdown, then finishing them off with the AR of choice. However, if they’re not all clustered together, I’m pretty much screwed now, b/c i have no nade, I’m about to reload my AR, and those left standing are pretty pissed and unloading into me.


(Tandem) #51

Kind of surprising… hit box larger than the grenade(?).
Answers why in pubs these kills made no sense to me.
Running into players that stood no chance without it,
I was fine with that, but not if all it takes is to aim in the general direction.
Another downside for spreaders as guns too. HUge hitbox+ diceroll automatics.

[I]

I don’t mind being killed in a game if I know who did it and how and what I could have done to avoid it.
If there’s really no counter, or no skill was involved, I tend to get weary.
“So with Brink we’re trying to get rid of those no-skill kills,” says Ed
[/I]

Good idea, stick to it.


(Zarel) #52

…I don’t know. Lowering the grenade’s hitbox will not do much good due to the(and especially to the) smg’s rate of fire that even compensated for it’s quick spread increase. If the grenade shooting was taken out entirely, what’s next to blame, the underslung grenade launchers?

So how about to further increase grenade cooldowns, further decrease in damage, and a minor decrease in knockdown range(if not the splash damage itself)?

Anymore ideas?(seriously, why don’t we try and make this constructive? For the betterment of the game is the goal, right?) :slight_smile:


(Spendlove) #53

I have not seen anyone grenade shooting ever? Is it really that common?


(Kurushi) #54

Isn’t the counter to shoot their grenade before you do? :slight_smile:


(Apoc) #55

Ill explain the issue in more depth.

Firstly, the knockdown mechanic of the game is very powerful. It puts a player to the ground where they have increased spread, no movement and obviously are disorientated. This is usually ok, when knocked down from melee, as they are close, so the large spread and no movement means there is at least a little chance to kill a player that has hit you to the ground.

Grenades knock you down from range. You cannot return fire if they are any further than short range (effectively), making you essentially a dead man if you are on the ground while someones firing on you.

Again this would be ok if they had sacrificed the 3 seconds to cook their grenade, in which time they are unable to shoot and are vulnerable, and it requires at least practice to time a grenade to explode exactly on an enemy.

The problem with grenade shooting is that it is so easy to do. And so incredibly effective. The hitbox to explode a grenade is massive, much, much, much larger than the grenade itself, you only have to shoot in the direction of the grenade to blow it up.

So by merely throwing a grenade at an enemy, then shooting at the enemy, leads to not only your bullets hitting but also the grenade, essentially instakilling them.
It is so easy to do, you can easily perfectly explode grenades on targets, taking 80% of their health away and knocking them down within a second of seeing the enemy.

Again, this would be ok, if grenades were more limited, but they recharge. If everyone started with one grenade, and that was it, it would still be dangerous, but no where near as abused. Because they recharge, there is no reason not to grenade shoot in any fight, whenever you can.

In comp matches at the moment, and i use comp as the example as in comp matches the game is being played at the highest level, by players who play the most and know the game inside out. Grenade shooting is more than abused. Often, even at comp level, if you see an enemy and they see you, it is more effective to let them shoot at you with their huge spread and instead of returning fire, throw a grenade at them and shoot it. This is happening a huge amount. Whenever anyone enters a room, they grenade shoot the first person they see, 5 players doing this means most of the fights are decided on who grenade shot who first. The issue is that by the next spawn wave, everyones grenades have recharged and the process can be repeated.

On pubs its not as overused, but that is only because people are yet to discover it. The last couple of weeks pub players are picking up on it, and the same is happening as in comp but not quite at the level yet. Problem is that pubs arent resticted, so playing soldier on pubs is hilarious, with quick recharge increased radius, increased damage grenades, means you can easily take down spawnwaves as a soldier.

If there was a demo function i could show you overpowered they are. Im afraid it isnt a matter of opinion, if you dont think they are overpowered then you are just yet to see them used properly.


(sereNADE) #56

Easier to shoot a thrown grenade mid flight than a stationary head. Sound about right?


(Jimmy James) #57

All sounds like good ideas to me as from what I’ve seen in this thread Grenade Shooting is a bit overpowered for a rank 1 ability.

According to the ability’s description you can only shoot your own frag grenades and that has been my experience on the PC at least.

-JJ


(Zarel) #58

[QUOTE=Apoc;351404]Ill explain the issue in more depth.

[/QUOTE]

Okay, okay, so it is powerful. Now, what do you have in mind? What do you think would be a good remedy to this?
Taking out the knockdown effect? Decreasing damage? Decreasing splash range?


(thesuzukimethod) #59

well put (described, really). helps explain the issue. sucks if ‘twitch’ style gameplay becomes the standard on a team game. (how does this affect objectives btw, i assume some maps are more susceptible to this sort of play than others)?

and, how different is this compared to say, using USGL on an SMG like AR (like the Euston)? seems you could accomplish something similar (or is the point that you engage the grenade throwing motion before you enter the room so you’ve already got it ready to release? (obviously the USGL is instant launch, there’s no recall as with the throw)

note: this part about USGL isnt meant to undermine your point. If your point is to argue for a tighter damage radius, a sharper damage decal, less overall damage, a larger recharge timer, not resetting the timer on a respawn, etc, the issue really isnt the grenade shooting per se, but the damage/radius of the soldier grenade itself - limits to which would carry over to USGL, etc.


(Jimmy James) #60

I got a question: Is the relatively large hitbox on the grenade the same on all platforms? From what I’ve read it’s easier to aim with a mouse than with a console controller, so it would be logical for the hitbox on the grenade to be smaller on the PC.

-JJ