Grenade Shooting

(thesuzukimethod) #21

Zernok, Apoc, others…

For those of us who haven’t seen spammy grenade shooting (or who didn’t notice it?), could someone give a slightly more detailed description of what is happening? (i am not doubting what you are saying, I am simply curious what this even looks like).

also, (apoc i think) this post describes he AUS tourney of which you speak. It also has some interesting commentary about ETQW’s emergence…

This sound familiar? Because it’s happened before. When Enemy Territory: Quake Wars came out, it faced a lot of similar problems; the game was geared for pub, no SDK for almost 2 months, no competitive restrictions, but still there were tournaments with prize money. After the big tournaments, the playerbase died. People were fed up with ETQW and its flaws, and rightfully so. However, those that did stick around got to play ETQWpro in it’s 1.0 form; and my compliments to hannes, as it made the game a lot better.

But was it too little, too late? It definitely was. The ETQWpro community existed of roughly 50 active players, far too little to actually sustain a game at all. Should the game have been in the state it was in now at release, then perhaps the activity would’ve been a lot higher - you can’t tell. It would’ve been worth a try, though

just someone’s opinion, but the post title (deja vu) seems apropos. perhaps there is/isn’t hope

(ZernoK) #22

Thing is that it takes a large chunk of your health away and knocks you down, assuming you timed your grenade shooting well (Aim is the last thing you need to worry about). The last remaining of your health is taken away while you are trying to get up.

You cannot fight and win against a guy using grenade shooting, assuming you are of the same skill level. If you want to win you have to use it too or hope his grenade is on a cooldown.
It gets really tiring when you have to expect grenade shooting in every fight you get into after a while.

(BMXer) #23

Yep, thats the thread I read it in. Not the thread itself but biggz’s reply about 2/3 the way down.

“We just completed a quick cup for Brink in Auz (cybergamer.com.au) and apart from the grenade shooting (which basically ruined the final btw) all teams enjoyed playing in the matches. On the grenade shooting as well we turned it off in the earlier rounds and then back on again because of the ESL rules (not doing that again!).”

I was mostly curious why grenade shooting ruined the finals specifically…?.. Was it basically like Apoc described, 3 soldiers, tons of nade/nade shooting spam or what?

And as far as what it looks like, picture every single firefight in a clan match being led in by grenade shooting. AS SOON as you see the enemy, throw nade and immediately begin shooting at the enemy. Disregard the nade you threw because no matter where you threw it, you will hit it and it will blow up. More lotto to go with the lotto spread!

(Kurushi) #24

[QUOTE=ZernoK;351282]
You cannot fight and win against a guy using grenade shooting, assuming you are of the same skill level. If you want to win you have to use it too or hope his grenade is on a cooldown.
It gets really tiring when you have to expect grenade shooting in every fight you get into after a while.[/QUOTE]

If the guy has one up on you with a grenade ready then fair play to him but don’t forget they can shoot the nade out of your hand quite easily making it backfire

(thesuzukimethod) #25

ugh. i posted something longer and lost it b/c I’m an idiot and my caffeine hasnt kicked in yet.

In short: I see/share exedore’s point that this seems very similar to the effect of USGL, other than not available to lights. I use USGL (match/map dependent - only have it on my rok, frkn, and gerund) with my soldier to get multiple takedowns on chokepoints or held rooms, to work on the health of spawn waves and protect HE charges/hackboxes/etc

But I’m curious about the details of the AUS comp match, since there’s a fuzzy line between exploiting an imbalance and perfecting a skill that matches your playstyle, and i assume they were all skilled players - so I’m curious what caused them to decide to turn it off.

The question is what is the counter to the grenade spamming/shooting? and, is it that effective (i tried it for awhile, but found it not that useful for how i play, and the only complaint i have about others using it is when it seems like my nades get shot as I’m throwing them (am i imagining this?)

(ZernoK) #26

I’m 99% sure that you cannot shoot anything else but your own grenades. In all the fights I’ve been in not a single grenade has “Backfired”. And it’s starting to become quite alot of those grenade shooting situations.

(Humate) #27

[QUOTE=ZernoK;351282]Thing is that it takes a large chunk of your health away and knocks you down, assuming you timed your grenade shooting well (Aim is the last thing you need to worry about). The last remaining of your health is taken away while you are trying to get up.

You cannot fight and win against a guy using grenade shooting, assuming you are of the same skill level. If you want to win you have to use it too or hope his grenade is on a cooldown.
It gets really tiring when you have to expect grenade shooting in every fight you get into after a while.[/QUOTE]

Or you open with smg, and then nade shoot = kill
They dont even know its coming. : /

Another method is lobster + molotov = kill
Nothing they can do.

(thesuzukimethod) #28

you’re on pc? on ps3, I’m 9X% sure you can shoot teammate/opponent nades…not sure if that’s by design/intent or not.

gonna go check, needed an excuse to ‘conduct an experiment’ lol.

(thesuzukimethod) #29

[QUOTE=Humate;351309]Or you open with smg, and then nade shoot = kill
They dont even know its coming. : /

Another method is lobster + molotov = kill
Nothing they can do.[/QUOTE]

but these options are available to everyone…i’m not arguing that there shouldn’t be any changes/considerations either.

The question is whether this is becoming the new “carb 9” (i.e. the best damage dealer available, and players are gravitating to it) or if it is just a playstyle/strategy, that can be countered, dealt with, etc. Individual matches wont answer this, either

cheers to a productive/interesting (and civil) discussion, much appreciated.

(Humate) #30

Doesnt matter whether the option is available to all.
None of these methods take skill, OR can be countered.

Theres no point hyping up a game, saying “we have taken no skill kills out of the game” and then making spam a better option, over a gun.

We looked long and hard at some of the potential problems with online shooters. It seems like too many players spend too much time dead, not playing the game. And often that’s a result of something they could do nothing to prevent. I don’t mind being killed in a game if I know who did it and how and what I could have done to avoid it. If there’s really no counter, or no skill was involved, I tend to get weary.

“So with Brink we’re trying to get rid of those no-skill kills,” says Ed. “For a start, we don’t have airstrikes, because there’s just no defense against them. And no grenade spam – our grenades are on a cooldown timer so you can’t lob them constantly, and in any case we’ve changed grenades from being a kill weapon to an assist weapon.”
Brink’s grenades do a little bit of damage (possibly enough to kill you if you’ve already taken some hits) but mainly knock you down and leave you momentarily vulnerable to a follow-up attack. But you can still fire while knocked down. So if you grenade me, and knock me down on my arse, and then run towards me to try to finish me off, I can still shoot at you the whole time (albeit with reduced accuracy, as I only have one hand on the weapon).

That said, if you do manage to perform a melee finishing move on me, fair enough, you have earned that kill.

(Thundermuffin) #31

The thing is though everyone knows they can do it so every fight starts with either lobbing a grenade and shooting it and then finishing up with an SMG or shooting a few shots, throwing a grenade and shooting it out of the air. Either way it results in a kill and it’s whoever can get their grenade off first that wins.

It isn’t like grenade shooting is hard to do; it’s pretty much hit g, and continue to fire at the enemy and watch as the nade magically blows up but all of your headshots miss. It really ruined all the scrims I played, because you never knew if it was you doing bad or if it was just that they hit G faster than you.

(TeoH) #32

It’s been extremely effective since day 1, and it’s exaggerated by everyone playing light, because it’s quite possible to just 1-hit grenade kill an unbuffed light. Assuming you pickup the gren before you enter a room, if you walk in and see someone then you can throw and shoot the gren before they can kill you with SMG fire, basically winning the fight in any circumstance short of the other player appearing 1 inch from your face.

On the other hand, it’s also the only varied and interesting alternative combat in a game that revolves around 50 varieties of dull hitscan machine guns with wide hose cones of fire. In the interest of trying to keep the combat entertaining, i would suggest the best solution would be to look at reducing grenade damage, not removing the grenade shooting entirely. Reducing the hittable area down to the size of the grenade model would be an utterly stupid idea, as the only weapons in common use are really only appropriate for shooting at the wide side of a barn, and trying to intentionally hit a grenade sized hitbox with correct timing would just be Bingo night.

In terms of metagame counters, picking up a grenade as you walk through a door leaves you very ****ed if someone steps out at point blank range on you and shoots you with an SMG. Best case scenario you suicide and take them with you, though often you only manage the former. However it’s trivial to nape a doorway before you run in. Generally speaking, you’ll be more effective as defenders against grenades if you play a more mobile roaming style where you’re not returning to fixed positions in a room all the time. Offense on the other hand are going to always have issues with grenades at choke points, a clustered train of people trying to run in through 1 doorway is never going to be a good idea.

Anyway, TLDR i think it would be better for any changes to focus on reducing the damage dealt by the grenades rather than just removing gren shooting from the game. For the people who aren’t sure what it looks like, there’s a bit of it in this frags vid, though it’s mainly knifing: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eXL6evBUTyc

(Kurushi) #33

I can’t be certain but I’m quite sure people shoot molotovs still in my hand and it kills me quite often. It also looks like I’ve shot nades that have just left people’s hands, if not while they’re still cooking them.

To the other guy - first nade does not = win. More often than not, risking the first nade means you won’t have one at a more important time later. If you get knocked over, you should have backup from your team, it’s not like it’s insta death.

(TeoH) #34

[QUOTE=Kurushi;351323]I can’t be certain but I’m quite sure people shoot molotovs still in my hand and it kills me quite often. It also looks like I’ve shot nades that have just left people’s hands, if not while they’re still cooking them.
[/QUOTE]

It is possible to shoot other people’s nades, i’ve had my own nades randomly explode mid flight on several occasions, however i’ve never had one explode right infront of my face, as you would expect if someone is shooting at you when you throw. It’s quite possible there is a grace period after the grenade is thrown before it can be shot.

For the molotovs, what you’re likely seeing is someone else grenading you while you have a molotov primed, which knocks you down and causes your molotov to dissapear from your hand (doesn’t explode). Which looks like you just molotov’d yourself, but instead your throwing animation is just cancelled.

it’s not like it’s insta death.

Well actually yea, it pretty much is. People don’t play heavies in clan games.

(Jimmy James) #35

[QUOTE=Humate;351315]
Theres no point hyping up a game, saying “we have taken no skill kills out of the game” and then making spam a better option, over a gun.[/QUOTE]
I guess you stopped reading that quote you posted at the part you made bold.

As for Grenade Shooting, according to the description Grenade Shooting should only work on your own frag grenades and that’s been my experience on the PC (that is, I’ve never had one of my grenades shot by someone else):

Grenade Shooting allows you to shoot your own Frag grenades mid-flight, giving you more control over when and where they will explode (if your aim is right).

Also, the Brink Wikia:

Only frag grenades are affected by this ability, other grenades such as Sticky Bombs or Molotov Cocktails are unaffected.

-JJ

(thesuzukimethod) #36

I forgot how funny that video is. the repeated gun butt knockdowns in the middle there must have been infuriating (for them)…lol.

does anyone know if grenade damage has a decay OR is it if you are within the radius you feel the same effects. it might help if there was a tighter sphere of high-damage with a sharper decay (if there isnt one). to penalize less ‘precise’ use of nades. dunno. the full-powered soldier nades do feel pretty powerful to me, but that seems appropriate (but so does balance). In the games I play, there are rarely more than 2 soldiers unless there’s a HE charge objective, (i generally think there should be 2-3 on most maps for support/ammo/assault purposes, but what do i know…haha)

I would also like to see a video of overbalanced grenade shooting/spamming…b/c my only frame of reference i can think of is at the beginning of sec tower when everyone on Res tosses all the nades they have up onto the wall on the way to the door. but that just makes sense anyway, and not much shooting of them going on. I’m not doubting you, but from the descriptions so far, I’m having a hard time visualizing how this is unbalanced given the potential for it to a) go both ways and b) the situational nature of it (TeoH’s comments seem accurate to me)

(Kurushi) #37

I’m quite sure that’s not happening. The death icon looks like a suicide with someone else’s name next to it.

An official response would be nice. I’m either going mad or I’m shooting them before they get to me :slight_smile:

(thesuzukimethod) #38

stickies (b/c they can be shot to disarm them) can be shot as you’re throwing them (pretty sure).

gonna test the opponent nade shooting on ps3 here in a minute.

(nick1021) #39

We looked long and hard at some of the potential problems with online shooters. It seems like too many players spend too much time dead, not playing the game. And often that’s a result of something they could do nothing to prevent. I don’t mind being killed in a game if I know who did it and how and what I could have done to avoid it. If there’s really no counter, or no skill was involved, I tend to get weary.

“So with Brink we’re trying to get rid of those no-skill kills,” says Ed. “For a start, we don’t have airstrikes, because there’s just no defense against them. And no grenade spam – our grenades are on a cooldown timer so you can’t lob them constantly, and in any case we’ve changed grenades from being a kill weapon to an assist weapon.”
Brink’s grenades do a little bit of damage (possibly enough to kill you if you’ve already taken some hits) but mainly knock you down and leave you momentarily vulnerable to a follow-up attack. But you can still fire while knocked down. So if you grenade me, and knock me down on my arse, and then run towards me to try to finish me off, I can still shoot at you the whole time (albeit with reduced accuracy, as I only have one hand on the weapon).

That said, if you do manage to perform a melee finishing move on me, fair enough, you have earned that kill.

This is quite funny. Even before the added spread, it never felt like I deserved those kills. They were easy.

There is a counter to airstrikes. DON’T DIE!

Spamming nades was there before this whole grenade shoot exploit. Get a soldier, underslung nade launcher and fire away.

(Humate) #40

[QUOTE=Jimmy James;351329]I guess you stopped reading that quote you posted at the part you made bold.

-JJ[/QUOTE]

Meaning what?
That airstrikes cant be avoided because people are too retarded to see the blue smoke?
You know that part of the mechanic that warns players that spam is coming their way.

Or the bit where he says that players can shoot back while knocked down… because the super accurate guns in the game, actually makes this to be a viable option :wink: