Grenade Binds

(Ryan) #101

[QUOTE=Senethro;210202]Oh excellent, that means you’ve got Ctrl free! Thats an even better conditional key than Alt.
[/QUOTE]

And how would you press the shift button when I hold ctrl down?
You even know what a hand looks like?

[QUOTE=Senethro;210202]
I won’t lie here. I think your reasons are crap or unimportant for a majority of people.

Pro’s:

  • It is what we are used to in any other SD game.
 So? SD games are a minority of games and hopefully Brink will have the commercial success that puts us in the tiny minority

And therefor they should copy the bad things from these games?

  • It doesn’t limit your movement. You can select the grenade with your weaponbank key and hold/prime it with your mouse1. The “regular” _attack button.
It doesn't limit your movement but does overcomplicate and add unnecessary extra inputs.

Yes it does. WASD + SHIFT + SPACEBAR, how many fingers is that? How many u have left to press and hold the grenade now?

  • It is as fast paced as W:ET
pfffff this is simply wrong. Switching to nades was one of the slowest parts of W:ET

The game itself was fast paced, even WITH this “slow” thing as you name it. Why would it be slow? Pressing the weaponbank key takes as much time then to press the auto-prime key. Only you have to HOLD down the auto-prime key (which limits movement) instead of using the regular mouse1 button, keeping your index finger on the button at all times.

  • You can use your mouse buttons for something more important!
More important than spending a high damage, limited ammunition weapon that controls space and enemy movement?

YES. If this high damaged, limited ammunition weapon that controls space and enemy movement (WTH you talking about) could be on MOUSE1 that would save a button.

  • You don’t have to start cooking the grenade immediatly, thus surprising the enemy by delaying/timing your grenade.
Get this. You don't have to start cooking immediately either with offhand grenades. You just don't. Press. The. Button. Yet.

When the enemy sees you grabbin a grenade they can immediatly start counting in their heads, thus predicting when the nade goes off. Whereas with a weaponbank, you can throw them off by delaying the priming.[/QUOTE]

And I am STILL waiting for your reason to have it auto-prime?

(Ragoo) #102

[QUOTE=Senethro;210196]I honestly think the Alt key is an underused key that might have been appropriate which is why I suggested it. I’d really like some actual feedback because maybe it only works on my particular size of hands (large palms, short fingers).
[/QUOTE]

Pressing down left-alt to throw a nade? And how do I jump while doing this?

Being a standard doesn’t make it any better. Maybe it is also standard to make games very noob-accessible. But SD has gone the right way with the SMART system: They let us choose whether we want one button to do everything for us or if we want to hit crouch,jump etc manually. We just want this for nades, too.

Imo the one-button thing clearly interferes with movement on keyboard or with aiming on mouse button, so why not give the players who don’t like it another option?
Maybe we are the minority but imo the competitive part of a game gets more and more important. Games that suck for this minority of competitive gamers won’t succeed in the long run. This is why SD cares for the scene :slight_smile:

edit: Wanted to add: Whether you switch back from nade to gun manually or automatically won’t matter ingame afaik. If you are used to it, both ways are the same speed.

(Senethro) #103

Good post, but I think thats a subject for another thread. Do you want to start it?

[QUOTE=MILFandCookies;210200]
But as a counter example, I remember how many people raged about stroyent nades on the Sewer beta. And they were right. It quite simply just made the game too spammy, particularly in indoor sections. So I would have to say that user input is important… Most of the time, the developers get it right with their ideas, sometimes they dont. And vice versa with user input…Not every idea in the Brink suggestions thread is going to be any good.

As far as off hand nades are concerned, you might consider them to be standard, however that doesn’t mitigate the fact that they arent popular on these forums at least. And if theres ANY chance that the response from these forums is indicative of what they might expect from the PC gamers who buy the game - I think its at least in their best interest to look into it.[/quote]

Yah, sure, player input is important. But it needs to be valued correctly. 1 months before ETQW release crossfire.nu was still shitting its pants over the inclusion of vehicles and demanding they be removed. The advice we give has to be useful and reasonable. It was easy to get a consensus of the Sewer stroyent nade spam because of how bad it was.

But grenade as a weaponbank thing? Thats something almost noone should care about. Its not like headbob where some people get motion sickness - thats a huge issue that affects a small number of people. Nor is it like Outskirts needing an extra set of stairs in the comms building which was a small issue that affected everyone.

Brink is a new game. The worst mistake we could make is decide that /WE/ are the community its for and SD should bow to our demands. We are not the Brink community just like the Team Fortress 2 community was not the TFC community. Its a new game and will find its own community and doesn’t need people with a 2003 mindset trying to control it.

Not every poster here is a negative twat, making demands. Some are here to contribute ideas to what might be one of the best games in 2010.

Thank goodness!

(Senethro) #104

[QUOTE=Ragoo;210207]Pressing down left-alt to throw a nade? And how do I jump while doing this?

Being a standard doesn’t make it any better. Maybe it is also standard to make games very noob-accessible. But SD has gone the right way with the SMART system: They let us choose whether we want one button to do everything for us or if we want to hit crouch,jump etc manually. We just want this for nades, too.[/quote]

Why do you want to jump while throwing a grenade? Look, there are advantages and disadvantages to all bindings and you can always find problems with one but I honestly can’t think why you’d need to jump while holding a grenade. Its more likely it would interfere with the SMART button to my mind, but w/e.

Thankfully I had a solution all ready for you in my posts. Use Alt+mouse1 as a conditional if its such a big deal to you that you should be able to jump and won’t bind your jump to mouse or any of the other possible solutions.

But in this case the standard is smarter because its easier on inexperienced players. Somehow CoD, BF and all the other players manage to live with it. Its also already in Brink and not easily removed.

Pressing a button on the mouse clearly does not upset your aim because most people use Mouse1 to fire. Pressing a keyboard button does cause problems but thats your own fault for not changing grenade to something sensible. Its like how weapon banks are bound to 1,2,3,4 etc. Its crap but since everyone who really cares has their own favorite solution, theres no point trying to guess that solution. So they might as well make someone easy to remember for the dads who still look down at their hands to change weapon and give the rest of us the ability to rebind.

Its like why they put shit strings on a good guitar. They don’t know what kind of strings you like so they’ll give you something easily replaced so you can put your own on.

Imo the one-button thing clearly interferes with movement on keyboard or with aiming on mouse button, so why not give the players who don’t like it another option?

Maybe we are the minority but imo the competitive part of a game gets more and more important. Games that suck for this minority of competitive gamers won’t succeed in the long run. This is why SD cares for the scene :slight_smile:

MW2 has been the worst competitive game for a long time and beat counterstrike. Finally, after a goddamn decade, something beat bloody counterstrike and continues to beat it in terms of daily playerbase. Competitive players are irrelevent but its nice of SD to pay attention to us. Props to them.

edit: Wanted to add: Whether you switch back from nade to gun manually or automatically won’t matter ingame afaik. If you are used to it, both ways are the same speed.

No, switching via weapon bank will always be slower unless SD give offhand grenades a delay the same length as putting your weapon away, drawing a new weapon to idle position, arm drawing back animation, and then switching back. And that just defeats the point.
Darkangels script is a better solution than that.

Lets be clear on the problem here. Only the most grizzled and calcified players genuinely want grenades in weaponbanks. What you all want is grenades that work within your control schemes. Now, what can be done about that?

(Senethro) #105

[QUOTE=Ryan;210205]And how would you press the shift button when I hold ctrl down?
You even know what a hand looks like?

And I am STILL waiting for your reason to have it auto-prime?[/QUOTE]

If you’d been reading my posts you would have seen that the conditional use of CTRL key just requires you tap it, not hold it down. Anyway, why would you need to press shift even if you did want to hold down CTRL? I doubt you can sprint or SMART while your arms are full of primed explosive.

Reasons for? Again, you’re the one whos not reading posts ;o

Edit: Ok, might as well say it again I guess. It does all of the same functions, more simply and easily, and if you’re smart about configging it won’t get in the way of anything else.

(Ragoo) #106

It has more range if you do it? You can throw it over higher obstacles? And in ET:QW you could kinda shoot the nade if you did it right, running+jumping.

I don’t argue that it is slower, I’m just saying that these milliseconds won’t matter much ingame (and definitely not more than having left-alt as your nade-button).

And about MW2, as you sad, it’s the shittiest competitive game in a long time and therefore there won’t be a notable competitive scene next year and hence the MP part of the game will die.
Can’t say that about games with a big competitive scene like CS,Quake or CoD4. Those games live for years.

(jazevec) #107

[QUOTE=Senethro;210208]
Yah, sure, player input is important. But it needs to be valued correctly. 1 months before ETQW release crossfire.nu was still shitting its pants over the inclusion of vehicles and demanding they be removed. The advice we give has to be useful and reasonable. It was easy to get a consensus of the Sewer stroyent nade spam because of how bad it was.[/quote]

And you know what ? They were right about vehicles ! Since you’ve already provoked me:

  • vehicles almost can’t leave the ground. The ramp near command post on Valley looks dead easy, but on most servers has a Husky stuck in it a lot of the time.
  • balance issues. In W:ET, defending team often (always ?) had longer spawn counter, because they, by definition, spawned a lot closer to the objective. ET:QW put more thought in player spawn location and didn’t have to increase timers (I think). But as far as I know, vehicles for defenders spawned as often as ones for attackers. Defenders shouldn’t have that extra advantage, they already have many things going for them.
  • Icarus had huge impact on level design, forcing map makers to limit passages so that Icarus can’t fit. If there was a factory or a house in ET:QW, you could be sure ALL windows would be closed because of Icarus.
  • It took SD a lot of time to admit antilag doesn’t apply to vehicles, and Icarus is a vehicle. In the meantime, people with legitimate complaints (can’t hit icarus) were being ridiculed. One of design goals of Icarus, and supposedly a balancing factor was to be his huge orange glow, making it a conspicuous target, easily taken off the sky. But even with good aim you often couldn’t hit the thing. The right thing to do was to lead with crosshair.
  • some vehicles, like Desecrator, were just flat boring. Strafing movement could be interesting, in theory, but in practive it felt almost like being a bigger trooper. Movement patter was just too similar.
  • I know tanks have big range in real life. Titan the tank has huge range in ET:QW. What’s wrong with that ? Well, the optimal play on many maps was to use it like an artillery piece. Spam spam spam… Why make use of tough armour if you don’t have to ?
  • the joke that was gunner positions in Bumblebee. The missile in Trojan…
  • Flyers were the counter to things that were supposed to counter them. It doesn’t matter that flyers weren’t particularly tough or hard to destroy. What matters is they respawned so often as to make hunting them a waste of time. A competent pilot would just bite from another side if threatened, and effectively remove your deployables from the picture. Coordinated attacks 1) meant the pilot has done his job, removing pressure from the rest of his team 2) weren’t that effective, because flyers had big mobility advantage and rocket soldiers couldn’t keep up. For that reason, serious flyer destroyers could only use the sniper rifle.
  • on the big picture, only EMP/Scrambler grenades were reliably effective against vehicles and would shut them down for good. Rocket launchers had too many ifs and buts, airstrikes and the like too limited. In some situations this made vehicles nearly impossible to remove, you just had to surrender your deployables. By comparison, I think one of things that really worked in ET:QW was infantry balance. By comparison, it looked stellar.
  • Bottom line: vehicles in ET:QW seem more like a “Me too!” reaction rather than a well thought out move. I don’t think they make the gameplay reacher.

But grenade as a weaponbank thing? Thats something almost noone should care about.

Hmm, let’s see. Grenades can’t be used alongside a regular weapon. You have to put down your weapon to use them. sounds awful lot like a weapon bank to me. Aside from aforementioned interface annoyances, grenades the way they will work in Brink just make more sense as a weapon bank. The only difference is 0 (?) second switch time.

Brink is a new game. The worst mistake we could make is decide that /WE/ are the community its for and SD should bow to our demands. We are not the Brink community just like the Team Fortress 2 community was not the TFC community. Its a new game and will find its own community and doesn’t need people with a 2003 mindset trying to control it.

Straw man. You put words into people’s mouths, so that they superficially resemble their argument. But are easier to refute, and you make a big show of “refuting” it. You failed to adress points they made.

(INF3RN0) #108

70ppm (posts per minute) forum users means… time for them sub forums sd

(Senethro) #109

[QUOTE=jazevec;210215] And you know what ? They were right
-snip-
ather than a well thought out move. I don’t think they make the gameplay reacher.[/quote]
Take it to a new thread m8!

Also, ETQW wasn’t for you. Vehicles were central to the design.

Hmm, let’s see. Grenades can’t be used alongside a regular weapon. You have to put down your weapon to use them. sounds awful lot like a weapon bank to me. Aside from aforementioned interface annoyances, grenades the way they will work in Brink just make more sense as a weapon bank. The only difference is 0 (?) second switch time.

Well done, you’ve summarised why I’m right. They’re barely different in function but one is easier.

Straw man. You put words into people’s mouths, so that they superficially resemble their argument. But are easier to refute, and you make a big show of “refuting” it. You failed to adress points they made.

Not a straw man, just a soap box I get on regularly. Its maybe not entirely appropriate to this thread but you’ll still see me drag it with me anyway. Its mostly for the people from previous games who claim that “tradition” (in a video game!) and respect for previous communities somehow justifies weaponbank nades.

(MILFandCookies) #110

Correct. /WE/ aren’t the games community. In the same way that the RTCW2 official forums weren’t the game’s entire community. However there were some really “passionate” posters on that board who gave some great ideas about the game and were completely ignored. And that game failed hard unfortunately.

It also had an off hand nade system if I recall, and that wasn’t a popular choice then either. Not suggesting in any way that it was the nade system made it fail though, just to be clear.

And as one of the SD developers pointed out already… off hand nades were in games long before the weapon bank system of W:ET and ETQW. Therefore going by your logic - people in favour of off hand nades have a 1999 mindset? Its just a personal preference that effects gameplay for some people :slight_smile:

And if people care about something in the game ,thats their prerogative. I dont think anyone can be in the position to tell them what they should or shouldnt care about.

(Senethro) #111

Whaaaaaaa? Shoot, like, with bullets…?

I don’t argue that it is slower, I’m just saying that these milliseconds won’t matter much ingame (and definitely not more than having left-alt as your nade-button).

Oh those milliseconds matter. All the competitive players had weaponswitchtimeout 0 in their cfgs or they were great big scrubs.

And about MW2, as you sad, it’s the shittiest competitive game in a long time and therefore there won’t be a notable competitive scene next year and hence the MP part of the game will die.
Can’t say that about games with a big competitive scene like CS,Quake or CoD4. Those games live for years.

Wanna place some bets on the lifespan of MW2? It seems to be over the peak of sales YET retaining a large number of mplayers.

Those 3 games you mentioned are all shadows of their former selves. What is competitive activity currently comapred to their peak?

(Senethro) #112

[QUOTE=MILFandCookies;210220]Correct. /WE/ aren’t the games community. In the same way that the RTCW2 official forums weren’t the game’s entire community. However there were some really “passionate” posters on that board who gave some great ideas about the game and were completely ignored. And that game failed hard unfortunately.

It also had an off hand nade system if I recall, and that wasn’t a popular choice then either. Not suggesting in any way that it was the nade system made it fail though, just to be clear.

And as one of the SD developers pointed out already… off hand nades were in games long before the weapon bank system of W:ET and ETQW. Therefore going by your logic - people in favour of off hand nades have a 1999 mindset? Its just a personal preference that effects gameplay for some people :slight_smile:

And if people care about something in the game ,thats their prerogative. I dont think anyone can be in the position to tell them what they should or shouldnt care about.[/QUOTE]

W’s failure was written for all to see long before release and those who thought they could seriously change it were deluded. Those who wanted everything made so far thrown out the window and a W:ET clone made even more so. Props to Hollywood who actually put together some good ideas though.

Offhand nades were in existance for a long time but weren’t widely adopted immediately. Which is surprising given how much simpler they made things.
Its not a personal preference - offhand does all the functions of weaponbank more simply. Thats BETTER.

(tokamak) #113

Indeed. It puts more emphasis on making choices. No free lunch.

(MILFandCookies) #114

In your opinion its better… Which you’re entitled to by the way :wink:

And its irrelevant whether its widely adopted, it was still used back in 1999 and it was used in one of SD’s mods. Are SD living in the past because they are implementing this system in Brink? No. So I think the whole 2003 mindset is a moot point. The people here have every right to state what they think would be great in the game.

And as far as RTCW2 - the fact that it was a failure long before release, only proves my point further.

(Senethro) #115

It is better. Simpler is better. Why is complicated better?

And its irrelevant whether its widely adopted, it was still used back in 1999 and it was used in one of SD’s mods. Are SD living in the past because they are implementing this system in Brink? No. So I think the whole 2003 mindset is a moot point. The people here have every right to state what they think would be great in the game.

Ok, if its irrelevent its irrelevent and I’ll just have to let the fact its better speak for itself.

And as far as RTCW2 - the fact that it was a failure long before release, only proves my point further.

Hardly. I doubt you can prove that not listening to players advice during W devleopment was the direct cause of its lack of mplay success.

(Ryan) #116

[QUOTE=Senethro;210210]Why do you want to jump while throwing a grenade? Look, there are advantages and disadvantages to all bindings and you can always find problems with one but I honestly can’t think why you’d need to jump while holding a grenade. Its more likely it would interfere with the SMART button to my mind, but w/e.
[/QUOTE]

Why I would want to jump while I throw a grenade? Isn’t that OBVIOUS? Should I just STAND STILL for 4 seconds then!?

Sometimes I need to throw a grenade further away.

Sometimes I need to throw a grenade over an obstacle.

I would still like to be able to move to all directions and not being a sitting duck while I am timing my grenade.
I would like to dodge as much incoming fire if possible.

Stupid question imo.

What do you mean with Alt+mouse1?
I would need to press Alt to switch the function of my mouse1 button? Like a toggle?

Why not use “4” for that AND have it show the correct animation and model at the same time?
Toggling the function of MOUSE1 with Alt will ALSO make you not be able to shoot the “easy targets” like with a weaponbank where u actually have the grenade equiped. This would make the auto-prime almost the same as a weaponbank, but you CAN’T see that u have selected a grenade.

So weaponbank > Mouse1 function toggle

CoDMW2 is the shittiest competative game there is. And it’s smarter? Don’t u mean they DUMBED it down? Cause u say that auto-prime is “easier” for inexperienced players.
It’s already in and not easily removed? Weaponbank could be ADDED, we don’t insist of having the auto-prime to be deleted, we want the OPTION to choose!

Ow, so now you DO rely on experienced players to know how to bind in a config, but having a choosable option in the game menu is too hard for them?

How can a weaponbank be crap? It doesn’t interfere with anything?

I don’t know what the hell this should mean, but the whole point here is that we CAN"T choose our own “strings”.

Huh? you changed your mind about the weaponbank option availabiblity?

What’s wrong with CS? I never played it but it seems you don’t like the competative game?

Who cares if its 0.001 second slower. At least it doesn’t cripple someone for 4 seconds trying to prime the grenade!

[QUOTE=Senethro;210210]
Darkangels script is a better solution than that.

Lets be clear on the problem here. Only the most grizzled and calcified players genuinely want grenades in weaponbanks. What you all want is grenades that work within your control schemes. Now, what can be done about that?[/QUOTE]

Use the weaponbank?
So around 80% of the players here are grizzled and calcified then.

Now for the last time, why is auto-prime key better?
Cause I can clearly see more advantages in the weaponbank system then ith the auto-prime.

(H0RSE) #117

I think its more about the fact that if you have chosen to use a nade, then isnt it fair and right that you have a small time delay to get to your weapon?

It’s a grenade, not a tactical nuke…have you ever thrown a grenade? It’s fairly easy, and can be done whie holding a weapon in your other hand. I don’t think it should have a “penalty” to use one. That would also go against the “easy to pickup gameplay” they are trying to achieve for newcomers. Frustration=not fun.

(Ragoo) #118

Hm no, they kinda flew very fast in a non ballistic way. But perhaps I only have hallucinations , was just playing ET:QW pub and never read about it. I’m pretty sure it is like that though^^
edit: Ok just tried it again. I guess I just meant the higher velocity when you run and then jump and throw it. Pretty useful nevertheless.

[QUOTE=Senethro;210221]
Wanna place some bets on the lifespan of MW2? It seems to be over the peak of sales YET retaining a large number of mplayers. [/QUOTE]

Look at for example the tek9 MW2 forum and you will know this game is competitively dead already. Also IW won’t allow any modding and I heard about much cheating going on. How can this game possibly stay alive for as long as CS? And if so, why would it be an example for a good game?

(Ryan) #119

It can’t be done while holding a gun in your other hand.
Or you should pull out the pin with your mouth.
Also, throwing a grenade with your left hand when u are right handed isn’t the best way either.

Thus yea, to throw a grenade takes time.

(H0RSE) #120

We already said that ANY button on the keyboard would interfere with movement,

But it wouldn’t…I have already told you this multiple times. Interfering with YOUR movement does not equal interfering with everyone’s movement. It boggles my mind that all you gamers couldn’t find a control scheme where the dedicated nade button doesn’t conflict with your movement.

I refuse to believe that out of all the button available on a keyboard and mouse, people could not figure out a control scheme where the dedicated nade button wouldn’t conflict with their movement.