[QUOTE=shirosae;209930]As I understand, the advantage of SD’s system is that you can throw a grenade whilst keeping a one-handed weapon active.
[/QUOTE]
No you cant shoot and throw a grenade at the same time
Who told you that? :s
Go look at this video: (2:25)
He had to switch to his grenade, started cooking it and AFTER he thrown it he switched back to his one handed gun.
+1 for this! I knew I forgot a pro for the weaponbank system
[QUOTE=shirosae;209930]
+1 for this too. Preselecting tools is too useful not to have.[/QUOTE]
Yes, I wanted this asswell but I didn’t have any responds on it so far. Wolfenstein really messed this up. Having a key that reacts to the inviroment sucked. Sometimes when I wanted to plant I gave myself an ammo pack -_-.
+1 for having tools on a weaponbank! This was actually the FIRST thing wolfpro fixed, cause it really sucked not to have it.
An official word from SD about this would be welcome now. Debate is done now, so please tell us if you are listening to community (and not tokomot ofc) or not, thx.
[QUOTE=Jamieson;209929]
I appreciated that ETQW let you select weapons by scroling through them but the system was inferior because there was the chance of over shooting your intended weapon. [/QUOTE]
Imo the system was very useful. I used 1,2,3,4 for knife,pistol,gun,nades and for the tools I used the mouse scrolling. It is really fast if you get used to it and yeah, obviously 5,6,7 are just keys I don’t want to press because those are too far away to press for my middle finger (which is on “w”).
[QUOTE=Jamieson;209929]
P.S for the love of god let us pre select objective/class tools before we get to the objective. Dont do what wolfenstein did that was apsolutely terrible.[/QUOTE]
I don’t think the switching back to your gun is an advantage either for autoprime. I want to be in full control of what weapon/tool I select. what if i want to select a grenade cook it then get my objective tool out, I can’t im forced to switch back to my main gun then to the obj tool.
just my thoughts anyway.
.[/QUOTE]
The “autoswitching” thing is an advantage to new players.
If you arent aware of a nub camping, and they throw a cooked nade at you that misses; there should be a battle b/w the nub switching manually back to gun while trying to shoot you, vs you the player, who already has their gun out trying to track the nubcake. In this instance you should have the advantage in this little duel. And so you should.
However in a “nade in one hand gun in the other” scenario - the nub will kill you, because the game switches weapons for them. It doesnt take into consideration that the speed in which one changes weapons effects who wins a one on one battle.
I realise that I might be in the minority here, and for most this might seem like a small issue in the game. So I’m cool with it being the way it has been suggested by SD
[QUOTE=MILFandCookies;209985]The “autoswitching” thing is an advantage to new players.
If you arent aware of a nub camping, and they throw a cooked nade at you that misses; there should be a battle b/w the nub switching manually back to gun while trying to shoot you, vs you the player, who already has their gun out trying to track the nubcake. In this instance you should have the advantage in this little duel. And so you should.
However in a “nade in one hand gun in the other” scenario - the nub will kill you, because the game switches weapons for them. It doesnt take into consideration that the speed in which one changes weapons effects who wins a one on one battle.
I realise that I might be in the minority here, and for most this might seem like a small issue in the game. So I’m cool with it being the way it has been suggested by SD :)[/QUOTE]
This maybe true but you assume who ever gets the first shot wins this is not true at all. I can give you many examples of times I have been ambushed from behind only to turn around and blow someone away with 3-4 headshots.
The only time the system would give the ‘nub’ as you put it an advantage is when the autoprime switches weapons quicker than manaually selecting weapons. I can assure you most experinced gamers are very quick at switching weapons.
Weapon switching used to be one of the many things to learn when becomming a good player this new system where the game does it for you is quite annoying.
[QUOTE=Jamieson;209990]This maybe true but you assume who ever gets the first shot wins this is not true at all. I can give you many examples of times I have been ambushed from behind only to turn around and blow someone away with 3-4 headshots.
[/QUOTE]
I dont assume that at all. Take it from someone who has played comp quite a bit.
I’m speaking generally from a balancing point of view. The player who throws the nade and misses should be penalised. Meaning there shouldnt be any auto weapon switching. Im all for the removal of that, not against it
Weapon switching used to be one of the many things to learn when becomming a good player this new system where the game does it for you is quite annoying.
Hey, i just posted this in the gameplay vid thread, since i didn’t notice that this new thread had been started. so i deleted it from there and am reposting it here. Hence the inline references to the actual back-and-forth that happened in other thread.
Hi everybody! Thanks for the spirited discussion, it’s been really great and useful for me to read through it all. And thanks Horse for basically being a stand in for me during the discussion to get a clearer idea of what the issues are, since at first, I truly didn’t get it, but with the back and forth you guys have done, it’s finally sunk into my thick skull what the problem is
(And now we interrupt this post in progress for an obligatory apology to the community)
Here’s the deal: I screwed up, and I’m sorry for it. Yes, I can totally see now the keyboard issue of limited thumb and pinky love, since not everyone has a mouse with a button 4. If I could go back in time, I would inform myself of the PC problem I’m creating with the all in one grenade button and steer the whole thing a different way.
The problem is now that the code changes that had to be done to our inventory management system to make the one-button grenade approach work means it’s unfortunately not an easy-peasy task to put in a traditional PC version in addition to the new system. Time is running short, and our gameplay programmers are stretched really tight, so I’m afraid this can’t go on their list of things to do to support both the new and the old system. Hence my sincere and profound apology. I was dumb, I missed the trick, and all I can do is say I’m sorry, lesson learned.
HOWEVER, good news! I’ll double check tomorrow, but I believe Darkangel’s script solution from a couple of pages back is a perfectly viable way out of this sticky wicket, in that one could map a button to toggle the bound functionality of mouse 1. So you hit the button and bang, M1 is now grenade-ish. If you hit the button again, M1 goes back to rootin-tootin-shootin. Absolutely brilliant solution, and that should work fine.
So there’s our way to have our cake and eat it too. Phew, bullet dodged. I’ll also try to go one step further and see if, while we’re working on our control remapping option screen, there can be a “grenade button shift/toggle” choice that would basically activate that script, so PC players don’t have to bother with that. But it might be a case of players having to do the script themselves. Fingers crossed on that.
So, this whole episode has opened my eyes to the fact that, in spite of my best efforts, maybe I am still a bit too console-headed (tough professional habit to break, you must understand). That’s why I’m going to open the floor to discussion about it further. I’ll have to double check before I start a new thread on this topic, because to do the discussion right, I’ll need to get clearance to talk a bit about a game feature that hasn’t been revealed yet (it’s a little thing, and I’m sure it’ll be fine, but I still have to get clearance from the PR gods). Look for said thread in the next few days, were I basically lay out what our current thinking is for all the default PC keyboard/mouse control layouts, and get your guy’s feedback on it.
Thanks for all your help guys, and also for keeping this thread fairly level headed, even when it’s obvious tempers were close to starting to flare up. Good work all, we’ll get this game done yet!
Yeah, wondered where it vanished to after just reading it all, thought I was going insane.
Good to hear anyway, although think darkangel’s script thing wouldn’t work unless you changed something since ET:QW as I seem to recall you was restricted with binds along those lines to prevent the sort of stuff that you find in ET with various scripts and so on that gave players silly advantages, sure someone more in the know would be able to tell you more about it.
[QUOTE=Rahdo;209997]Hi everybody! Thanks for the spirited discussion, it’s been really great and useful for me to read through it all. And thanks Horse for basically being a stand in for me during the discussion to get a clearer idea of what the issues are, since at first, I truly didn’t get it, but with the back and forth you guys have done, it’s finally sunk into my thick skull what the problem is
(And now we interrupt this post in progress for an obligatory apology to the community)
Here’s the deal: I screwed up, and I’m sorry for it. Yes, I can totally see now the keyboard issue of limited thumb and pinky love, since not everyone has a mouse with a button 4. If I could go back in time, I would inform myself of the PC problem I’m creating with the all in one grenade button and steer the whole thing a different way.[/quote]
Perhaps if you were actually able to offer information to the community when there was still time to fix it, Brink wouldn’t have terrible grenade controls that force to me to retrain how I use a mouse or buy footpedals to use them properly.
Are you listening, Bethesda?
I appreciate the apology, but honestly… no-one in SD saw this coming?
[QUOTE=Rahdo;209997]The problem is now that the code changes that had to be done to our inventory management system to make the one-button grenade approach work means it’s unfortunately not an easy-peasy task to put in a traditional PC version in addition to the new system. Time is running short, and our gameplay programmers are stretched really tight, so I’m afraid this can’t go on their list of things to do to support both the new and the old system. Hence my sincere and profound apology. I was dumb, I missed the trick, and all I can do is say I’m sorry, lesson learned.
HOWEVER, good news! I’ll double check tomorrow, but I believe Darkangel’s script solution from a couple of pages back is a perfectly viable way out of this sticky wicket, in that one could map a button to toggle the bound functionality of mouse 1. So you hit the button and bang, M1 is now grenade-ish. If you hit the button again, M1 goes back to rootin-tootin-shootin. Absolutely brilliant solution, and that should work fine.[/quote]
Yes, but it doesn’t really help much.
The advantage to having grenades on a weapon bank is that you select your grenades when you sense they might become useful, and then wait for the moment where you need to commit. Committing to a throw and timing the throw are both done with a single keypress whilst you retain full movement and aiming ability. That moment when you need to push multiple keys or a key combination is removed to a time before you’re in the line of fire.
Darkangel’s script gives you full control when you cook the grenade, but not when you need to choose when to commit. You’re still helpless while you activate it.
I’ll use it, because it’s infinitely better than seeing all players in Brink suddenly lose the ability to walk to the right whenever they throw a grenade (so I know where to aim for headshots when I see one come out, and how to dodge that grenade), but it’s really not a bullet dodged.
This is what happens when you assume that your KB/Mouse controls are a given, so it’s okay for you to focus your testing on the xbox controller.
Also, Bethesda need to get it through their skulls that holding back information from the community and DMCA’ing every unofficial video isn’t helping their cause.
I hope this shows a couple of things:
When we freak out when a console focus is mentioned, it’s not always because we’re paranoid, but because stuff like this happens.
but keep in mind that an SD employee came out and appologized, not Bethesda who forced this.
And yes, I surely hope that this still might become available in a patch then, if not before the full release of the game.
(Maybe BRINK2 will have it fixed from the start :P)
but keep in mind that an SD employee came out and appologized, not Bethesda who forced this.[/quote]
Rahdo knows (since I told him straight out a while ago,) that whilst I disagree with a bunch of stuff he’s doing with Brink I still respect that he obviously cares about the game and is trying his best.
Ages ago a bunch of people were worried about a load of magazines talking about how the developers were testing exclusively on xbox controllers. And we were told that it was fine, because keyboard and mouse were sorted and they wanted to make sure the xbox controller worked as well.
And hey, guess what, that didn’t work out so well. I don’t think that kind of thing is unimportant, if you’re a games developer developing for multiple platforms.
That I bring it up doesn’t mean that I hate SD, just that I think it’s something important that they need to be aware of. That is the whole point of the developer-community feedback for Brink, after all.
[QUOTE=Ryan;210030]And yes, I surely hope that this still might become available in a patch then, if not before the full release of the game.
(Maybe BRINK2 will have it fixed from the start :P)[/QUOTE]
Well, it depends on how hard it’ll actually be to fix the grenade controls, but a promod for Brink is going to be inevitable (I hope), so as long as that fixes it I’ll be happy.
Even something like having a key to swap the binding for mouse1 from _attack to _grenade* would work, assuming you can have some sort of on-screen display so I don’t get confused.
Would be pretty sweet if I can add on-screen GUI icons or something to keypresses, and define custom icons and suchlike.
*Bind “4” toggle “bind mouse1 _attack”, “bind mouse1 _grenade”. Though that’d require removing those leading underscores if we go by ETQW logic.
Since I do believe that BrinkPro will include the normal grenade thing, I would rather have it in the main game asswell. (Otherwise I would not be able to play on ranked servers etc, and you can’t really say the etqwpro community it hella big / dunno how brinkpro will be)
Anyway, I sure hope they manage to get the “old” way in asswell. If there is a toggle for the mouse1 button to switch it to auto-prime grenade, and normal shooting, hopefully they can also get the grenade-arm model in asswell + that swap animation. Or you might get confused, and when u start shooting your gun, you instantly throw a grenade instead of bullets
Greetings,
Crytiqal
PS: Altough SD might/should have listened to this idea earlier in the development proces (which if I knew that the grenade thing was going to be like this, I would have ranted earlier :P), I think it’s a good service that they are willing to code it differently for the community. I do hope this “service” gets trough in time…
Well, we did do plenty of testing with PC controls as well, and in the case where you’ve got a 4th mouse button, cooking and throwing grenades bound to it works fantastically, much better than the old system, as near as I can tell from the concerns listed in this and the other thread. But my mistake was really to ignore the 2 button mouse user, which I’m duly embarrassed by.
But why wouldn’t the scripting/binding solution work exactly? You bind ‘3’ (lets say, since your primary and backup guns are on 1 & 2) to a script that toggles LMB 1 from the ‘shoot gun’ action to the ‘throw grenade’ action. Then you’ve got exactly what you want. You hit 3, and your grenade is effectively ‘equipped’, and you tap LMB to toss it or hold LMB to cook it. You hit 3 again, and LMB goes back to shooting. Is that not what you guys are bothered to have lost?
Edit: Ah, i see you posted the same thing, Shir. Yeah, that’s what I figured would take care of the problem.
I agree with shirosae, I’m not going to pretend im not a bit pissed off about this to.
This is a worrying hint that shows the PC version of the game is not being given full attention and that SD is focusing primarily on the console versions of the game. If this is not true im sorry but you have to see it from our perspective.
Grenades are one of the core elements of any combat in any FPS. I just can’t understand how this was overlooked. The system for selecting grenades in ET and ETQW was perfect so all you had to do that was replicate that and if you wanted to implement the autoprime system as well you could.
Brink looks very good but im starting to lose confidence that you guys will delivey for PC gamers. Since I don’t own any of the consoles and have a high end machine I’ll be very dissapointed if Brink turns out to be another console port and I will not be buying Brink. Seems to be the trend these days anyway.
Edit Rahdo, the problem with the bind is that you have to hit 3 again to stop the bind and then select your primary gun. This disadvantages manual users vs autoprimers.
IMO if you develop a game for the PC, its features should reflect that it was made for that platform.
I could go on about how making the games identical, contradicts the above statement, but you probably wont appreciate my anti-console attitude. Nonetheless, I appreciate the fact you’ve gone to the trouble to reply to people’s queries, and I know you’re trying to make this game the best game possible
[QUOTE=Rahdo;210041]Well, we did do plenty of testing with PC controls as well, and in the case where you’ve got a 4th mouse button, cooking and throwing grenades bound to it works fantastically, much better than the old system, as near as I can tell from the concerns listed in this and the other thread. But my mistake was really to ignore the 2 button mouse user, which I’m duly embarrassed by.
But why wouldn’t the scripting/binding solution work exactly? You bind ‘3’ (lets say, since your primary and backup guns are on 1 & 2) to a script that toggles LMB 1 from the ‘shoot gun’ action to the ‘throw grenade’ action. Then you’ve got exactly what you want. You hit 3, and your grenade is effectively ‘equipped’, and you tap LMB to toss it or hold LMB to cook it. You hit 3 again, and LMB goes back to shooting. Is that not what you guys are bothered to have lost?
Edit: Ah, i see you posted the same thing, Shir. Yeah, that’s what I figured would take care of the problem.[/QUOTE]
So why not instead of only equiping the LMB 1 to ‘throw grenade’ action also let the animation and the model run? Otherwise u might press button 3, or didn’t I? Hmm, did I press it or not? I dunno. I’d better be sure and take a gamble when I press LMB 1. Which could make u throw away a grenade for nothing :<.
And as you said that using mouse4 for the ‘auto-grenade’ action worked better then the old system, you clearly didn’t play Wolfenstein? I really hated it, but that’s my opinion.
You also end up with a useless button on your mouse when u threw the grenade. Which could be used for way better things then to be an emtpy slot.
Hopefully you guys try and do your best to have it the old way in (asswell) by time. Or maybe later by a patch.
(It’s just that, I was hoping this game would BLOW ME AWAY, and I am sure it will at some points. I just hate to see some flaws that could have been avoided)
