Game Mechanic Suggestion: Raise base damage, reduce headshot multiplier

(honorableNemesis) #1

While I recognize that headshots are an integral part of modern shooters, the very fact that they exist tends to make weapon balancing something of a complicated chore: not only do you have to worry about things like raw DPS for damage and rate of fire, but accuracy, stability, and effective rates of fire at all ranges can complicate matters immensely. Add to this the fact that headshots in general can be a high barrier of entry to people who aren’t big fans of shooters in the first place and you might wind up trying to draw only shooter enthusiasts into playing this game with few other interested parties.

So I’d propose trying this: increase the base damage of almost all the weapons so they still feel lethal, but reduce the headshot bonus so that it’s still rewarding, but not a determining factor in performance.

Consider this as an example: you have a weapon that does, say, 15 damage a shot and your headshot multiplier is 200%. Against someone like Aura, who has 80 health currently, that means that it would take six bodyshots to kill her, whereas only three would be necessary if they’re all headshots. The time to kill on said weapon would vary drastically from person to person and situation to situation.

Consider an alternative: the base damage of the gun is increased to 20 damage and the headshot multiplier is reduced to 135% damage. Normally, it would now take four shots to kill Aura, but if a skilled player aims for the head, that 35% extra damage would turn into 27 damage per shot, meaning that she’d only require three hits to go down instead. The skilled player would get their reward, but the unskilled player would still feel lethal.

Headshots can counteract the entire aspect of a game valuing tactics over twitch. It becomes less about who’s got the proper positioning and the advantage of flanking and more about who can hone in on another player’s head with a better weapon faster.

(Nail) #2

3 headshots to kill a light ?
sorry doesn’t work, makes snipers useless

(Tomme) #3

Part of Dirty Bomb’s design is that it has a relatively strong learning curve and you get rewarded for getting those headshots.

With only a 35% bonus to damage with headshots; in this fast paced game it would simply not be rewarding enough and players would most likely negate going for them, even more so being that it is a risk going for them.

(triteTongs) #4

It’s not hard to aim for the head…
It’s the same concept as aiming for the head in counter strike

Basically, you want to keep your crosshair at head level as much as possible.
Some players, especially those who play an extensive amount of 3rd person games will point their crosshair at the floor.

When they come across an enemy, they need to spend the time and extra distance to move their crosshair up to the head.
BUT if you are aiming head level to begin with, chances are you have to do very little adjustment before firing.

[quote=“honorableNemesis;10728”]
Headshots can counteract the entire aspect of a game valuing tactics over twitch. It becomes less about who’s got the proper positioning and the advantage of flanking and more about who can hone in on another player’s head with a better weapon faster.[/quote]

You can also take advantage of proper positioning and the advantage of flanking WHILE being able to hone in on another player’s head…
That’s also an option

(honorableNemesis) #5

[quote=“Nail;19334”]3 headshots to kill a light ?
sorry doesn’t work, makes snipers useless[/quote]

In the body of my post you’ll see I say ‘nearly all weapons’, not ‘all weapons should do x damage’. Sniper rifles are fine already, able to kill in a couple bodyshots or a single headshot. That’s expected for the sniper rifle since it’s got a low rate of fire anyway. The main point I’m trying to make regards the rank-and-file weaponry of SMGs, LMGs, ARs, pistols, and machine pistols.

[quote=“Tomme;19346”]Part of Dirty Bomb’s design is that it has a relatively strong learning curve and you get rewarded for getting those headshots.

With only a 35% bonus to damage with headshots; in this fast paced game it would simply not be rewarding enough and players would most likely negate going for them, even more so being that it is a risk going for them.[/quote]

I’m not entirely sure what risk might be associated with pursuing headshots. The only risk would be in aiming too high, and even if that’s the case the common practice to avoid being headshot constantly comes in the form of jumping repeatedly under fire. Reducing the benefit of headshots would similarly reduce the benefit of bunnyhopping, since the loss of accuracy from being airborne would only reduce the amount of damage received by a smaller amount.

Furthermore, I should think that there’d be more to Dirty Bomb’s ‘impossible to master’ mantra than simply aiming for the head. What about learning the nuances of the map? What about flanking routes? What about team roles and composition?

[quote=“triteTongs;19362”]It’s not hard to aim for the head…
It’s the same concept as aiming for the head in counter strike [/quote]

Once again, it’s something that shooter enthusiasts take for granted, you simply always aim at the head because it’s by and large disproportionately rewarding to do so. Furthermore, in Counter-Strike jumping repeatedly to avoid being shot in the head carries a malus of a worsening movement speed debuff when done in rapid succession. Dirty Bomb carries no penalty (yet).

You could, but the question I’m posing is whether or not it seems fair that flanking and ambushing someone and having them turn to suddenly drill their attacker in the head is really the proper way balance should work: this would favor the person with the better reflexes, not with the better since of tactics.

Keep in mind this also reflects the way that different weapons are disproportionately favored over other weapons. Those which have poorer accuracy but higher damage tend to be discarded even now because they can’t guarantee the same number of lethal headshots in order to secure a kill. If a gun fires slowly and inaccurately, it may only score one or two headshots as opposed to one with very little muzzle climb that will receive multiple hits successively.

(triteTongs) #6

Dirty bomb does carry a movement penalty for certain jumps. But overall, DB isn’t that type of game.

Would you add movement penalties in a game like quake? It’s just the type of game style.

[quote=“honorableNemesis;19370”]
Keep in mind this also reflects the way that different weapons are disproportionately favored over other weapons. Those which have poorer accuracy but higher damage tend to be discarded even now because they can’t guarantee the same number of lethal headshots in order to secure a kill. If a gun fires slowly and inaccurately, it may only score one or two headshots as opposed to one with very little muzzle climb that will receive multiple hits successively.[/quote]

Which guns are you referring to?

(honorableNemesis) #7

If you’ll read my explanation, I’m talking about the rank and file weaponry, the type that already does around 15-20 damage. Sniper rifles already have a high base damage, so they wouldn’t be much affected by a change to headshot bonuses.

(enjoyableRule) #8

The problem with headshots is that if you reward them too much, the game starts to be completely centered around getting headshots with weapons that give you the most chance to headshot. It basically removes any reason to play differently.

When I played Brink, the Kross SMG was the perfect example of this. There were many other weapons for different play-styles, but the absolute best weapon was the Kross. It had a high ROF and very little recoil and you could completely murder people with it.

In Team Fortress 2, there are really only two weapons that can get headshots. The sniper is rewarded with being precise because otherwise he does negligible damage unless he sacrifices his situation awareness. (The spy has the ambassador pistol which gets a weaker headshot but since its release in the game has had several nerfs because it was too powerful)

Imagine if all the classes could get headshots. The entire game would be worse for it. Restricting headshots to a few specific instances does not subtract from the game - it allows the different aspects of the game to be more emphasized.

(honorableNemesis) #9

[quote=“triteTongs;19384”]Dirty bomb does carry a movement penalty for certain jumps. But overall, DB isn’t that type of game.

Would you add movement penalties in a game like quake? It’s just the type of game style.[/quote]

Quake didn’t have headshots either. It wasn’t necessary to add a mechanic to reduce jumping because a hit anywhere, head or feet, would count as the same damage. Jumping in that game made it easier to aim explosives at the feet of an adversary and make explosions beneath the player deal less splash damage.

I haven’t had the opportunity to play with all of the guns, but I did notice that Skyhammer’s default M4A1 AR has extremely sustainable full auto fire from the hip or aiming down the sights, whereas Arty’s default AR tends to gain a large loss of accuracy for each successive shot and provide substantial muzzle climb when firing while aiming. One could write these off as merely flukes that are relative to each weapon, but it still boils down to sustainable accuracy to achieve as many headshots as possible for maximum effect.

Besides, if headshots really weren’t that bad of a problem, why aren’t they permitted on shotguns? Is there no skill involved in closing distance on a sniper or a support and landing a full shot on the head for an instant kill? Why would they be permitted the chance to fire a salvo of response rounds before the shotgunner can chamber another round?

(Kroad) #10

shotguns can headshot

game would have an incredibly low skillcap without headshots, change isnt needed

(Humbug) #11

Unlike CS, COD, Battlefield and every other (bad) shooter, this isn’t a game where a bad player can kill a good player and I like it.
Priority should be matching players of equal skilllevel and not reducing the skillcap overall.
I don’t really get your argument for lowering headshot damage.

(Szakalot) #12

lol really? You mean a bad player never killed you with a mine/airstrike/grenade launcher/sticky bomb/artillery/turret, etc. etc. etc.?

(Humbug) #13

lol really? You mean a bad player never killed you with a mine/airstrike/grenade launcher/sticky bomb/artillery/turret, etc. etc. etc.?[/quote]

I don’t really die to those often and i guess you either.
Frag grenades and shotguns can be a bigger problem though :smiley:
On bigger maps like dome, those will even be less of a problem.
The high TTK really makes the difference compared to other shooters.

(benignMaster) #14

You want to dumb down the game to make it easier for people who don’t play shooters? No thanks, they can learn how to aim, deal with it, or go away.

(watsyurdeal) #15

Fuck that, lessening the damage headshots deal lowers the skill floor of the game, and basically just makes it more casual.

There’s no reason to lessen the damage of headshots, if anything change the damage and rate of fire of certain guns, and change how spread works, so people are rewarded more for short bursts and taps rather than spraying their gun.

(honorableNemesis) #16

I’m not entirely sure where this mindset that only the ability to run around the map with crosshairs aimed at the horizon should be the determining factor of skill in a shooter. Besides, my suggestion would still reward accuracy and the ability to aim at the head, it would just address the paradoxical situation where both ‘guns feel weak’ and ‘the player dies too quickly’. Whenever primarily getting headshots, the TTK is significantly shorter than primarily getting bodyshots, and the disparity can discourage the development of skills by new entrants into the genre.

What I’m suggesting is more or less a way that a free-to-play game can be more accessible to more people, not fighting for scraps that are already under contention by existing free-to-play ‘modern shooters’ that revolve around running around and shooting other people in the head. Headshots should be a bonus, not a dictating factor in success in combat, right?

[quote=“majesticClue;19467”]…if anything change the damage and rate of fire of certain guns, and change how spread works, so people are rewarded more for short bursts and taps rather than spraying their gun.

[/quote]

But you see, that’s going to come from the way that headshot damage is the way that people play the game. People consider guns ‘good’ or ‘bad’ not necessarily by the raw DPS but by the way the gun can accurately hit the desired target at range. In Splash Damage’s previous game, Brink, there were a number of fast-firing SMGs and ARs that would do really well in short range because they fired quickly and had little recoil. The problem is that those bullet hoses could perform the same role at long range, making the short range weapons king at long range as well. This could have been different if headshots weren’t so vital in scoring kills.

[quote=“Kroad;19425”]shotguns can headshot

game would have an incredibly low skillcap without headshots, change isnt needed
[/quote]

Test it yourself if you don’t believe me. Shotguns deal at most about 99 damage or so, so it’s enough to one-shot Aura and Proxy, but they won’t take down anyone who’s fully healed that’s heavier than them. I would assume this is to discourage bunnyhopping at close range and aiming down, but that’s not so much a problem with bunnyhopping as it is the mechanics of making someone fire up at legs versus someone firing down at a head target.

(watsyurdeal) #17

[quote=“honorableNemesis;19475”]

But you see, that’s going to come from the way that headshot damage is the way that people play the game. People consider guns ‘good’ or ‘bad’ not necessarily by the raw DPS but by the way the gun can accurately hit the desired target at range. In Splash Damage’s previous game, Brink, there were a number of fast-firing SMGs and ARs that would do really well in short range because they fired quickly and had little recoil. The problem is that those bullet hoses could perform the same role at long range, making the short range weapons king at long range as well. This could have been different if headshots weren’t so vital in scoring kills.[/quote]

Or if the devs added damage falloff that works, and spread that actually forces people to tap out their shots rather than spray. Part of the issue you’re complaining about is headshot don’t have fall off, which is fine, as it means that Snipers don’t dominate the map, you can still pick them off if they aren’t aware or very good at hitting their shots. That and the lack of any real spread also is an issue, you don’t really notice how inccurate your shots are until like the 10th or so.

If anything you can compensate for SMGs being as effective as Rifles by lowering the damage deal on headshot. Since they could do great damage up close but not so much at a distance.

But lowering it for all weapons be stupid

There is no reason to not reward people with better accuracy and control than others. Does Dirty Bomb need a bit of work with it’s gun play? Imo yes, but making headshots nigh useless isn’t the way to go.

Absolutely disagree

There is no reason for someone who’s been playing the game for a longer period of time to be wiped out by a new guy who’s not as experienced.

You’re trying to make the game more accessible for casual players, but I feel like that market is not worth their time,

They’re trying to make a team focused shooter, and whether you like to admit or not, casuals don’t like teamwork, they don’t like challenge, they like to be able to pick up a game, play it, and get the most out of it in a few days or so before moving onto the next game. Or will cry for nerfs or buffs because they can’t play the game for what it is or it’s not enough like Call of Duty or Battlefield.

In other words, they do not dedicate their time to playing it. Why should you appeal to people who clearly don’t like the game enough to want to play it over other games? Appeal to the audience that craves the experience you’re trying to make, don’t try to appeal to those who will buy a few bits of a game then uninstall it once something new comes out.

That imo is a HUGE waste of your time and money.

(Tomme) #18

The risk for going for headshots is pretty easy to see, what is more risky, aiming at the a large central mass - the chest or a much smaller mass - the head. Regarding the “impossible to master” mantra why can’t learning to consistantly track a players head be part of learning the maps and team play. Look at any game that rewards heavily - Counter Strike rewards headshots much more than Dirty Bomb and yet high level gameplay is domminated by high abstract knowledge of maps and team work.

Your other posts add weight to the idea that you want to make the game more “casual” friendly by introducing limitations to high skill play, instead to make a game more “casual” friendly you should allow the game to be easily accessible, simple to use and understand at a basic level, oh and good match making defiantly helps ha.

Ultimately there is two quite different mind sets here though, I like games in which at the start I am bad but I can see every time I play my improvements and the difference in play I can achieve simply by putting in the effort. This is different to other games and gamers who like to jump into games and not get trashed but be a viable player from the start.

Just my opinion anyway :smile:

(honorableNemesis) #19

I agree with that. Sniper rifles would still probably be best served by having a lower base damage and a higher headshot bonus. That way they could still require more than one bodyshot to kill lighter characters, yet still kill heavier characters with a single shot to the head.

[quote=“majesticClue;19483”]There is no reason for someone who’s been playing the game for a longer period of time to be wiped out by a new guy who’s not as experienced.

You’re trying to make the game more accessible for casual players, but I feel like that market is not worth their time,[/quote]

This is the key word: ‘accessible’. The converse to what you’re suggesting is that an experienced play will always hands-down defeat a less experienced player, they’ll just trounce them at every turn. Would that necessarily encourage people to play? Would it ultimate affect retention?

Free to play games often revolve around retention. Take a look at Team Fortress 2, for instance: it’s highly accessible, certainly, but that doesn’t prevent it from having tournaments and other instances of high-level play.

That seems like a bit of straw-man to me. Who said that casual players want any of these things? What /is/ a casual gamer? Making assumptions about potential demographics that could contribute to the success of an upcoming game is dangerous.

(Ardez1) #20

This thread is essentially asking the Devs to nerf real skill.

How you gain those skills is up the player, but really, it does require practice. Lots of practice. Most of the high skill players you see in this game didn’t learn to game in DB. They gained their tracking, strafing and jumping skills in numerous other games. They are simply converting that effort and training into a new environment with new variables.

Dirty Bomb isn’t an entry level game IMHO. You can certainly learn on it, but it will be difficult. Essentially they need more level cap servers or skill based MM if they want to cater to a new player environment, but you will run into people smurfing to get kills ~ Examples include GunZ and LoL.

I’ve said this before and I will most likely be saying it again ~ The best thing that the Devs could do to support DB is release independently hosted servers. People could make the modes they want with the settings they want and we would pretty quickly find out what modes would become popular. It is the same basis for W:ET. ETpro, JayMod, NoQuarter ~ All different mods that ran on different servers. There were more, but a lot of them died with few to no people wanting to play them. What people want to play will succeed and the players would be able to determine it faster than theory crafting game changes on the forums.