Furthering Merc Identity

[PixelTwitch]

Hey,

The more and more I think about the game in terms of Synergy’s and Counters, the more I am finding myself worrying about the entire concept of counters but loving the idea of synergy. In the past I have touched on my concerns with counters in a game that has so few abilities because if for instance, you have the ability to cancel out an airstrike, Skyhammer is just an ammo dealer. Having said that it really depends on how you give the ability to counter… If the person that can counter is also useless I suppose it works out…

We technically already have some pretty poor counters in the game already…
Nades (from nader or fragger) and smoke cancel out Stokers Molotov.

Nades and Molotovs also cancel out smoke and deployables.

I don’t like it personally…
Reason being is that the vast majority of the time the cancels are the result of chance and accident rather then cunning and foresight. I understand that you are asking for things to be much more involved and direct than what we currently have, I just still worry the same could end up happening or we end up in a situation where we run into roadblocks in gameplay due to everyone spamming actions and counteractions until something eventually lands.

Its really awkward…
I want the ability to stop an airstrike from stopping the EV.
However…
I don’t want someone to be able to stop my airstrike from stopping the EV.

Now, I do get that the idea would be to make the counters very skill based and “involved” but I still cannot think of a way of making that fun for someone that has their ability cancelled. Again, even though this seems to work great in Mobas its very rare for a Moba to only have 1 ability per character. I honestly feel the single Ability design has really limited potential for interesting further design. Even more so when some of them abilities feel more suited to Call of Duty style Kill Streaks then they do time based abilities.

I would be very interested to hear some examples of counters you have floating around your head.

Now what I would love to see is synergies…
However, I still have no idea how to implement these in a cost effective manner or easily to understand.
I would love as a Stoker to be able to run up to a Redeye and hold F on him to hand him my molotov and turn the next smoke into something like a toxic smoke cloud that does damage over time to people inside it. Costing Stoker his molotov but buffing the smoke in return. Same could be done visa versa.

The concept of stuff like this seems simple but the time to add functionality to this degree that will be only used in a very small percentage of matches is where I think the biggest road block lays. Simpler additions would revolve around Engineers being able to buff deployable stuff like the healing station, ammo station, turrets, mines and barriers. Having sollys have the ability to share “special” ammo types or give temp buffs, this would be cool as you can simply change the the muzzle flash colour based on buff/special ammo type to communicate it and add a lot of depth.

You could make this more specialised by having for instance Turtle buffing deployables by giving them more HP where proxy buffs them giving them greater or making them stronger. Change stoker from a FO to a solly character and allow him to throw single clips of fire ammo alongside his molotov. Give arty the Ammo station to make him more different to skyhammer.

Now due to voice over already being recorded I doubt that any of this would happen and that is such a shame. I am starting to slowly accept that we have the game that will be released bar a new mode, new map, few mercs and some polish

[INF3RN0]

Intuitive real-time skill-shots or intelligent timing based activations is what I had in mind for both synergies and counters. I’m not talking about overly effective automated hard counters, and also I’m thinking it may be best for them to be on a much longer c/d than a normal ability so that you’d need to put some thought into when you’d actually want to attempt a counter. Most abilities are already avoidable to an extent, but that’s usually just something like being alert and stepping out of the way. I’d like synergies and counters to help motivate and reward highly coordinated pushes, and vice versa.

So for some examples I had come up with previously, let’s say that theoretically both synergies and counter-abilities have 2x the c/d of a normal ability.

Counter Abilities

Engineer
Augmented Devices- All active and holstered mechanical devices (mines, turrets, etc) will disable the ability to be healed or revived for a variable amount of time based on damage dealt until destroyed.

Recon
Espionage- The PDA tool can be used to detect (large AoE scan) and then capture or disable (smaller AoE) enemy mechanical devices. Capturing will disable the owners re-deployment until destroyed, re-captured, or if the recon becomes incapacitated and disabling will trigger a full reset on the enemies deployment c/d. Post-scan, detected mines and the ability to capture only lasts for a fixed duration.

FOPS
Counter Espionage- Establishes a medium AoE cloak from detection surrounding the player, and reverses the effects of recon devices within a large AoE radius (ex. jams enemy sensors, dispells smoke, etc.) for a fixed duration or until the fops becomes incapacitated.

Assault
Bubble Shield- Activates a small AoE shield that will absorb a fixed amount of damage from FOPS based abilities. The shield only lasts for a few seconds.

Medic
Immunity- Activates a medium AoE aura around the medic granting immunity from all assault abilities for a fixed duration, or until the medic becomes incapacitated.

Synergies

Note: Synergies would only effect teammates and could not be used on ones self.

Engineer
Friendly augmentation- Increases the effectiveness of the next used ability on up to two players at a time via some sort of blow torch interaction on their person. Larger AoE radius for damage/detection/stun based abilities and increased base amounts for packs/stations/base revive hp.

Recon
Intel- Increases the effective output of abilities on detected enemies by 20%.

FOPS
Replenish- Ability cool downs recharge 15% faster when full on ammo (not available to FOPS).

Assault
Meat Shield- Reduces oncoming damage on teammates within a small AoE surrounding the player by 10%.

Medic
Vampirsm- Upon receiving a heal or revive, 30% of damage dealt over the next few seconds is returned as health.

There could also be more specific synergy combos as well, though it might be more simple to have generic synergies similar to the types I mentioned which have their obvious benefits per merc anyway.

[PixelTwitch]

I am actually kinda surprised by some of these suggestions…

Basically, for the most part, your idea of synergies are effectively nothing but passive auras and your counters appear to be nothing more than a defensive ultimate. I am assuming you want the counters to be flat out counter abilities that have their own activation button and cool down? If that is the case you run into a small balance issue and quite strange Merc pick requirements… For instance, lets just say for arguments sake, Fragger is given his Nade and “Bubble Shield” as abilities… Would the bubble shield only effect FO related AoE? Or would you be able to pop at any time to shield teams from enemy fire, nades and other explosive based abilities? If its just FO related AoE you run into the issue of perceived worthlessness (like why Skyhammer players have taken Stoker on underground for the longest time) due to a dud ability due to certain enemy Merc picks. If you allowed it to be used at most times you run into the problem of balance where one Assault is better than others and overall a strong Merc. If you give it to all Assault based Mercs you start to fall into the trap of set roles at best and have to totally rebalance the game again at worst.

They synergies you suggest, in my opinion, would make the game feel random as all hell for both the people receiving and the people giving damage. Specially when mixed with the current Augment system… Would “Friendly Augmentation” stack on top of the AoE related Augments? Same with the Recon? Would the Assaults “Meat Shield” stack on top of Fail-safe?

Now, you know me dude, I am all for increasing the number of Abilities for each Merc and having some crazy stuff possible…
I just cannot see your suggestions working due to player perceptions, random nature and role balance.

I think what caught me by surprise in your suggestion is that while talking about “Merc Identity” you are pushing things into a more classed based structure. This would only take away from the sense of individuality and turn into almost pure min-maxing gameplay.

I dunno dude…

[Glottis-3D]

these two guys totally know how to party!

on topic:

i realy think we need a shield. like we did in etqw,
or 2 mercs with two different shields. with two different radiuses.
-shield that absorbs dmg, and can keep you alive under molotov/strike - a small bubble sield
-shield with bigger radius, but less dmg absorbtion.

[INF3RN0]

[QUOTE=PixelTwitch;515118]I am actually kinda surprised by some of these suggestions…
[/QUOTE]

If you look at any moba it’s essentially a class based structure at the core, where individuality is defined with play styles and varied tools. I was thinking as realistically as possible here, where as I could have taken a different route I decided against it half way through writing it up. There should be some clear order to the system, especially with all of the concern for the learning curve, balancing, and development restrictions. Each archetype can essentially serve a general defined role for the team, but there’s still plenty of room for fleshing out the identity in other facets, especially if we ever get ultimates.

The counters are intended to be consistent across an archetype to avoid confusion, rather than merc specific. This means very simply that each archetype would counter only one other archetype, so going into a game you’d have a very clear understanding of what you might need at even a basic level of knowledge (ex. bubble shield absorbs all FOPS ability damage, including molotovs- but nothing else). With how abilities work as a general mechanic, allowing them to have a significant impact in the game warrants the availability of a counter to offer some opportunity to control the situation. The important part of making the counter a strategic decision rather than an impulse being that it would work on a much longer cool down than default abilities and require properly timed execution. Even if you perfected the execution of a counter and could at any moment be able to remove an ability from the equation, ideally it would become about successfully diminishing the impact an ability might have had at the vital moments and not necessarily every time the opportunity came up. An ability based clutch is awesome, but so is a perfectly timed counter to a would have been clutch, and of course in the end your gun is immune to counters and truly the most deserving of the spotlight.

I had the same thought process on the synergies. Location/action based synergies aren’t really what I’d consider passive synergies (that would be like a global +10hp per medic), and even if they were uniform amongst archetypes that doesn’t mean they’d produce the same results. It would simply be easier to understand and implement. The main outcome of synergies in this proposal would be to allow abilities to ramp up in effectiveness depending on the archetype combinations and pairings. So in order to have a truly impacting ability, you’d need a full contribution from all members in most cases. For example, the difference between a normal airstrike and a hard hitting airstrike would involve more than a single person, and everything else. In this example you’d get a much bigger bang from an augmented ability combined with a recon gathering intel, which momentum could be kept with an assault leading the charge backed by medics, and of course a field ops trying to reduce the c/d times to the next coordinated ability involved push. Effectively it would be a system where the impact of abilities was dependent on the coordination of the team, which I don’t see as very random. If anything I think people would find it highly motivating and rewarding, and those that didn’t could continue to bob and weave with the typical rambo gun play.

Combined with more unique variety amongst the actual abilities themselves, you’d have plenty of viable strategies to try. Every merc archetype performs the same basic actions already, however they lack a truly definitive role for the team as the benefits feel too minor to matter. Even now it’s nothing more than better killing abilities and better healing abilities, but there’s no real order to the chaos which is what I’m suggesting would establish. It’s a given that maps need to support and cooperate with all abilities equally, so that simply needs to be taken into mind when designing maps- and I was ignoring the perks which I think would be better time spent on a more robust system like this. If anything you could make perks slightly alter how these basic abilities might work, such as longer durations or larger AoEs at lower efficiencies or bigger outputs at longer c/ds and what not, etc.

[PixelTwitch]

[QUOTE=INF3RN0;515153]If you look at any moba it’s essentially a class based structure at the core, where individuality is defined with play styles and varied tools. I was thinking as realistically as possible here, where as I could have taken a different route I decided against it half way through writing it up. There should be some clear order to the system, especially with all of the concern for the learning curve, balancing, and development restrictions. Each archetype can essentially serve a general defined role for the team, but there’s still plenty of room for fleshing out the identity in other facets, especially if we ever get ultimates.

The counters are intended to be consistent across an archetype to avoid confusion, rather than merc specific. This means very simply that each archetype would counter only one other archetype, so going into a game you’d have a very clear understanding of what you might need at a basic level of knowledge (ex. bubble shield absorbs all FOPS damage, including molotovs- but nothing else). With how abilities work as a general mechanic, allowing them to have a significant impact in the game warrants the availability of a counter to offer some opportunity to control the situation. The important part of making the counter a strategic decision rather than an impulse being that it would work on a much longer cool down than default abilities and require properly timed execution. Even if you perfected the execution of a counter and could at any moment be able to remove an ability from the equation, ideally it would become about successfully diminishing the impact an ability might have had at the vital moments and not necessarily every time the opportunity came up. An ability based clutch is awesome, but so is a perfectly timed counter to a would have been clutch, and of course in the end your gun is immune to counters and truly the most deserving of the spotlight.

I had the same thought process on the synergies. Location/action based synergies aren’t really what I’d consider passive synergies (that would be like a global +10hp per medic), and even if they were uniform amongst archetypes that doesn’t mean they’d produce the same results. It would simply be easier to understand and implement. The main outcome of synergies in this proposal would be to allow abilities to ramp up in effectiveness depending on the archetype combinations and pairings. So in order to have a truly impacting ability, you’d need a full contribution from all members in most cases. For example, the difference between a normal airstrike and a hard hitting airstrike would involve more than a single person, and everything else. In this example you’d get a much bigger bang from an augmented ability combined with a recon gathering intel, which momentum could be kept with an assault leading the charge backed by medics, and of course a field ops trying to reduce the c/d times to the next coordinated ability involved push. Effectively it would be a system where the impact of abilities was dependent on the coordination of the team, which I don’t see as very random. If anything I think people would find it highly motivating and rewarding, and those that didn’t could continue to bob and weave with the typical rambo gun play.

Combined with more unique variety amongst the actual abilities themselves, you’d have plenty of viable strategies to try. Every merc archetype performs the same basic actions already, however they lack a truly definitive role for the team as the benefits feel too minor to matter. Even now it’s nothing more than better killing abilities and better healing abilities, but there’s no real order to the chaos which is what I’m suggesting would establish. It’s a given that maps need to support and cooperate with all abilities equally, so that simply needs to be taken into mind when designing maps- and I was ignoring the perks which I think would be better time spent on a more robust system like this. If anything you could make perks slightly alter how these basic abilities might work, such as longer durations or larger AoEs at lower efficiencies or what not, etc.[/QUOTE]

I actually do not agree with this mate…

Why should a skyhammer do more damage simply because some random guy has thrown a heartbeat sensor at them? Sure I know you mentioned map design but surely WC final objective will just become the exact same but amped? In my eyes a true synergy would require 2 players to interact in a meaningful way. Simply being in the vicinity is where my issue is focused… there is a huge difference in both literal and perceived randomness in a system that depends on location vs a system that depends on interaction. In my eyes a synergy is where a engineer can buff my ammo station or a assault can give me a grenade. Like mentioned previously, having a Stoker give a Redeye his Molotov so his next smoke is toxic or Aura attaching the healing station to Bushwhackers turret so the healing radius is made much larger would add reliable, perceivable and predicable effects. I think some of the “Counter Abilities” you are mentioning really deserve their own Merc rather then being attached to a class…

Actually, that is one thing that is not touched on very often…
There is a HUGE difference between a “Class” and a “Role” but we always seem to package them together. What you are talking about in Mobas are Roles. The “Classes” in a Moba (while not literally defined) are things like Tank, Healer, Ranged and Melee rather than Support, Carry and Jungle that fall under the heading of “Roles”. In Dirty Bomb I think SD has barely scratched the lid of the roles idea… I want to see an offensive engineer (I know technically Fletcher is but he sucks), an offensive Medic that can hold [Q] to stick a needle in his arm for a quick health regen or a FO that has a defensive ability such as a AoE slow or blind. Personally I would like the idea of “classes” to completely vanish and have people just take each Merc at face value… I still don’t understand why Stoker could not have a repair tool simple because he has ammo… I don’t see why Thunder is not switched into a Engineer role and have his flashbang replaced by a EMP.

Saying that until we find more ways of reviving people this kinda thing will not happen as a Medic is not a Medic without the ability to revive… So simply removing defibs would be Merc suicide. Again need to really break that 2 “abiltiy” limit and allow some to have 3. (not that I class defibs as an ability)

Anyway going way off topic but just trying to explain both why I don’t think simply giving synergy’s to classes really works and how I consider roles to be more important to Merc identity.

[tokamak]

When a field ops discovers that a covert ops managed to recon lots of enemy players he knows that his airstrike may be more effective than usual. That’s a window of opportunity he can chose to take or leave it at that.

However, when lots of mercs have these synergies, you’ll see lots of windows of opportunities open up. In a pub with inexperienced players these windows will pass unnoticed. In a pub with experienced players you’ll see players constantly trying to bank on those windows trying to get the upper hand and in coordinated league matches teams will work hard at creating these windows together.

I really like the HB-sensor and airstrike combination idea. If you don’t think there’s a realistic link to it then simply change ‘higher damage’ to ‘more accuracy’. The airstrikes will use the HB-sensed players as targets for it’s shells. Artillery may become less random and a drone strike may throw some bonus bombs along the side.

And let’s not forget that this doesn’t just make airstrikes more dangerous. It also makes the HB sensor more dangerous. Even if the team isn’t entirely sure if there’s a field ops on the opponent team, the threat in being detected just has grown a bit which makes it a great psychological deterrent as well.

If more of these connections can be made then you’ve got an environment that remains the same for an average player while more experienced, thinking players will start finding all kinds of ways to get leverage on the game.

[PixelTwitch]

[QUOTE=tokamak;515156]When a field ops discovers that a covert ops managed to recon lots of enemy players he knows that his airstrike may be more effective than usual. That’s a window of opportunity he can chose to take or leave it at that.

However, when lots of mercs have these synergies, you’ll see lots of windows of opportunities open up. In a pub with inexperienced players these windows will pass unnoticed. In a pub with experienced players you’ll see players constantly trying to bank on those windows trying to get the upper hand and in coordinated league matches teams will work hard at creating these windows together.

I really like the HB-sensor and airstrike combination idea. If you don’t think there’s a realistic link to it then simply change ‘higher damage’ to ‘more accuracy’. The airstrikes will use the HB-sensed players as targets for it’s shells. Artillery may become less random and a drone strike may throw some bonus bombs along the side.

And let’s not forget that this doesn’t just make airstrikes more dangerous. It also makes the HB sensor more dangerous. Even if the team isn’t entirely sure if there’s a field ops on the opponent team, the threat in being detected just has grown a bit which makes it a great psychological deterrent as well.

If more of these connections can be made then you’ve got an environment that remains the same for an average player while more experienced, thinking players will start finding all kinds of ways to get leverage on the game.[/QUOTE]

See in the situation you are talking about…
I simply feel that doing the good old Call of Duty style Kill Streak iPad would make more sense. Then the HB sensor does have a synergy as you can see them on the map it brings up but you still get to CHOOSE where to place the strike… I hope this style of stuff does come in, in future. An Arty like Merc that gets to choose where 3 small strikes land. Then you can allow the synergies to be “real” synergies that require interaction.

[tokamak]

Wolfenstein Enemy Territory had a similar synergy (one of the very few) that required a bit more work, like your suggestion.

A field ops was able to paint an artillery target with his binoculars. These coordinates would then appear on a player using the mortar’s interface (if there was a player active with a mortar at that time). This allowed the mortar player to add shells to the bombardment or sustain pressure on a point. If these two communicated with each other then the field ops could just help out finding targets which reduced the trial and error of that difficult weapon.

I think your disagreement with Inferno’s suggestions is that the synergies apply automatically. They apply in such a way that they may even happen unintentionally.

The problem though in making the synergies too action dependent is that there’s too much requirement for them too happen at all. In Inferno’s model it’s a ‘take it or leave it’ basis. The HB sensor is there, doing it’s job, it’s up to the fops to bank on that opportunity. The Fops only has to decide whether or not his airstrike will make use of the extra information.

In the extra monitor it’s no longer ‘take it or leave it’ it requires the fops to interpret the information and anticipate player movement. It makes the window of opportunity too small and the pay-off too much dependant on the skill of the fops.

So rather than a simple bonus it becomes a whole new mini-game. That’s fun for this particular scenario but it puts a huge limit on the amount of synergistic opportunities you can put into the game without seriously bloating the gameplay.

[Szakalot]

I haven’t read the good posts yet, so I’ll address that later, however I think a bigger priority is to work on players motivation in the game, rather than hardcoded-synergies/teamplay.

DB could definitely benefit from such additions, but none of that will work if players will have little motivation to cooperate. You can’t hardcode the player’s determination to cover each other’s back into the game, or whether they will try to go together, or just lone wolf the entire map out.

[rookie1]

Interesting Thread ,Although I don’t play that game anymore because of already mentioned reasons .(TDM,class specific object…)
I’m all in for synergy and other team play mechanic .What I could see is an Super ability (ultimate) that only can be done by the participation. of 3 specific type of Mercs (class)
This will encourage a team to choices 1 of each of this class to performed this Cool effect/synergy/Damage or defense ability
Goal :Better Class combo chosen mercs will do Better team Balance With cool possibility and will Increase the Teamplay

[PixelTwitch]

…

Actually my problem with Infernos suggestion is two fold.
1, Huge randomness
2, Changes damage output without justification.

How do I, or the player taking damage know that the Air Strike did 20% more damage?

Technically when it comes to the Heartbeat sensor and Air Strike, there is already a synergy there.
Making that synergy stronger just seems a little strange. Especially if it reduces control from the player.

A synergy in my eyes is like Heartbeat sensor and the Air Strike currently. Like the future Merc Turtle using his barricade to protect a Rhino and Redeyes smoke for blocking vision as his team pass over the pipes on Victoria. What it is not in my eyes is 1 Recon and 4 FO throwing HBS and Air Strikes at a spawn, EV or choke. I do still believe we can have more direct synergies as well… Let engineers buff the deployable stuff, Let assaults hand out grenades and recons have better spotting ability. Even go more direct and allow Stoker and Redeye to combine abilities either by one handing the other their ability or stacking them. Let Aura or Mercs with the Ammo station place on top of each other for buffed radius. Allow Bushwhackers turret to have longer range, more damage or faster reactions when shooting vs spotted enemies.

[tokamak]

How do I, or the player taking damage know that the Air Strike did 20% more damage?

You know you’re being detected which tells you´ll be more vulnerable to that type of damage.

[PixelTwitch]

You know you’re being detected which tells you´ll be more vulnerable to that type of damage.

1, The detection thing is pretty poor at best.
2, How does the FO that threw the Airstrike know the damage was done?
3, What happens if the Airstrike was thrown while players where detected but lands after the detection runs out?
4, What if I don’t want the Airstrike to target the detected players and would prefer to put it infront of them?

just seems like there are far too many variables to communicate effectively.

[tokamak]

Okay so we’re rolling with the players being targeted by airstrikes rather than damage boosts, I prefer that as well.

If players get targeted by a drone or artillery because they’ve been sensed then they’ll get the a trigger warning. Their HB-detection wears off but they still got the alarm thing going on (similar to a QW turret) telling them that the incoming strike will be directed at them.

The Field ops AND covert ops won’t be receiving any extra information other than bonus xp for the kills they just caused. If a field ops doesn’t want his strikes to be influenced by HB-sensors (which I sincerely doubt any field ops would ever object to) then you can simply throw the beacon ‘dummy’ mode by the right mouse button instead of the left.

But I sense a bigger point going on here. These aren’t really objections you sincerely hold and you’re way too intelligent for not being able to come up with these solutions and workarounds yourself. You’d probably already have a few better ideas in mind as well.

So what is happening here is bristling at an idea for another reason. Development practicalities are never a real reason to take gameplay to a deeper level.

I think these percs are easily justified as they require both classes to be more considerate about the role they’re playing. Coverts need to provide intell and field ops need to provide logistical support, preferably based on that intell. If the game starts encouraging that type of class interaction then we can see the gameplay advance to a much more interesting level.

The thing is, creative ideas are very easy to kill with objections like these. It’s very easy to make a huge deal out of something that may not be as big a problem or as difficult to overcome as we like to pretend it is.

[Szakalot]

[QUOTE=PixelTwitch;515164]
A synergy in my eyes is like Heartbeat sensor and the Air Strike currently. Like the future Merc Turtle using his barricade to protect a Rhino and Redeyes smoke for blocking vision as his team pass over the pipes on Victoria.[/quote]

This! Abilities should synergize based on how they affect the gameplay, not by buffing each other with auras, deployables and +x% factors.

Handing out freebies could work as well, but is not quite the same as two unique abilities coming together to create a novel mechanic (rather than a scripted mechanic). Such synergies might come up in the future, depending on maps & meta

[PixelTwitch]

[QUOTE=tokamak;515173]Okay so we’re rolling with the players being targeted by airstrikes rather than damage boosts, I prefer that as well.

If players get targeted by a drone or artillery because they’ve been sensed then they’ll get the a trigger warning. Their HB-detection wears off but they still got the alarm thing going on (similar to a QW turret) telling them that the incoming strike will be directed at them.

The Field ops AND covert ops won’t be receiving any extra information other than bonus xp for the kills they just caused. If a field ops doesn’t want his strikes to be influenced by HB-sensors (which I sincerely doubt any field ops would ever object to) then you can simply throw the beacon ‘dummy’ mode by the right mouse button instead of the left.

But I sense a bigger point going on here. These aren’t really objections you sincerely hold and you’re way too intelligent for not being able to come up with these solutions and workarounds yourself. You’d probably already have a few better ideas in mind as well.

So what is happening here is bristling at an idea for another reason. Development practicalities are never a real reason to take gameplay to a deeper level.

I think these percs are easily justified as they require both classes to be more considerate about the role they’re playing. Coverts need to provide intell and field ops need to provide logistical support, preferably based on that intell. If the game starts encouraging that type of class interaction then we can see the gameplay advance to a much more interesting level.

The thing is, creative ideas are very easy to kill with objections like these. It’s very easy to make a huge deal out of something that may not be as big a problem or as difficult to overcome as we like to pretend it is.[/QUOTE]

Your right, as in I had already come up with ways of communicating and answering my own questions before posting the thread…

My issue was not really the practicality but rather the effect on player kinaesthetics and emotion.
I suppose overall the FO+Recon combo is likely a poor one to debate as an example really.

I do like your idea of a “dummy mode” on right click but I was saving that for a suggestion of “cluster bomb” on right click (none Air Strike, for indoors). Now, lets focus on the idea of this being a “Role/Class” synergy like the original example… You now need to take into effect how it effects Molotov, Laser Beam and Arty Strike. Because if the synergy is not properly shared between the whole FO class you end up with some strong imbalances.

However, let me just say again my issue with the “class” synergy.
1, It limits the potential for more mixed class/role Mercs in future.
2, Still effected by many luck factors in public play.
3, Will likely result in more Spam.
4, Its just… Not that interesting really…

I feel if these where the changes that went into the next patch…
Within a few days we would be asking for more because we are bored of them already.
They do not really change the current gameplay, it just amps it up a little bit.
I also have less confidence in the human race it seems…
I do not believe that a huge number of people would deliberately incorporate these kind of synergies into their gameplay.
It will be more of a by chance thing, something that I assume Inferno intended by design, but a little to random for me.

Again, an example of a good synergy in my eyes…
is Turtle having a barricade that has a small window, head hight that increases damage of bullets that go though it. Something that would turn a Sniper into a single body shot kill on medium Mercs but stand out like a sore thumb. Or arty being able to give real time spotting via his target finder to his whole team but only having it active while his target finder is up (taking him out of battle).

Counters should be things like Sparks frying deployables in a single shot of her medic gun, Phonix healing wave bouncing back projectiles coming towards him and Thunder having an EMP charge or increased explosive resistance (due to him wearing a bomb squad suit)

[QUOTE=Szakalot;515207]This! Abilities should synergize based on how they affect the gameplay, not by buffing each other with auras, deployables and +x% factors.

Handing out freebies could work as well, but is not quite the same as two unique abilities coming together to create a novel mechanic (rather than a scripted mechanic). Such synergies might come up in the future, depending on maps & meta[/QUOTE]

Attach a rocket launcher to a turret please

[INF3RN0]

The thoughts behind the entire structure of the suggestion I made here was to increase the effectiveness of abilities through cooperation and being a team player. So imagine last patches abilities as a default, and this patches abilities when fully buffed per say. It defines mercs with a much more relevant team role first and gives them a unique skill set to accomplish that goal (same as any MOBA). I also consider it a much easier system to implement, where a specific interaction between every merc is highly unrealistic at this point even if I like it too. This system is entirely behind the scenes stuff, which would require much less developmental effort and I really want to see something happen in the game rather than just here on the forums. I also am avoiding any spillage into the raw stat gun play balance, which I think should not happen with this- it should only directly effect abilities and be a catalyst for follow up gun play.

Even in the heartbeat sensor scenario, it notifies that you’re detected and so you know that your location has been revealed. I don’t remember if it’s still globally shown detection, but simply spotting a player as recon would also mark them as detected too. A heart beat sensor is a specific tool that offers more consistent detection, however other recons rely entirely on positioning to spot players. I really don’t understand this argument on randomness and justification. Even in the case of a heart beat sensor, it detects you and it makes sense that it is revealing information to the enemy, so it could mean that abilities trigger faster or are more effective. If you want to get into specific details, you can simply make detection last up to 8 seconds or so with normal spotting, so that there’s a suitable window for ability follow up. With other recons besides vas, positioning at specific locations or along side specific mercs becomes beneficial, which applies to everything else. The team benefit is there in any combination, so long as the player is involving themselves. It makes the highlander combination an appealing option, but also creates a strong motivation towards working together in any setup simply because it is required to snow ball abilities. I think it would be very effective at facilitating continuous interaction amongst team members with clear contributions involved, and with certain limitations to benefits positioning and coordinated pushes would be very important and rewarding. Then throwing in counters means that even on a longer cool down, you’d have a means of retaliating against a really well coordinated ability push with your own well coordinated counter defense. Even then, I still think it would be the most immediate means of integrating synergies and counters, which could then be easily evolved into very unique interactions per merc.

[Mustang]

Haven’t bothered with all the TLDR’s, but I’d still like to see something along the lines of the suggestions.

[PixelTwitch]

I totally get that this would technically be the easiest to implement and I also get you could tweak the current abilities to work better in this situation. Like I said in a previous post I think the FO + Recon situation is the hardest to really judge as it is the most logical of the suggestions. However, I still do not like the idea of certain things being buffed based on nothing but proximity. In this situation you are really encouraging 5vs5 pushes rather than tactical splits and your making the communication of the buffs a much harder thing to telegraph.

A Rhino standing in the open or even behind cover having health packs thrown at him will never die realistically due to vampire health on top of his normal heal, People stood inside a healing Aura will constantly be getting vampire heal and a 5 man push including a phonix is just going to be pure dirty due to popping the healing wave and having vampire for 3 seconds. Then having a FO Air Strike buffed by a engineer and then again by a Recon is beyond OP. The you have the Assault and his meat shield that will be basically worthless. Don’t forget the weapon “abilities” like Nader, Rhino, Phantom and Sparks. How does your FO faster ability effect these Mercs? Does nader get 15% faster regen on nades until she fires he weapons?

I still feel that bundling synergies into “Classes” does not work as the classes are hosting a wide range of different styled Mercs.
Also, I feel that even though its the “cheapest” way to implement, the game would be worse for its inclusion.
Yea, more complex ideas take more time and money but it can be so much better.

In a strange way I feel like these ideas are just buffing current synergies…
FO already slightly reduce Ability cool down on direct hits.
Medics also heal quicker throwing a pack on a direct hit.
Medics revive you with respawn protection.
Recons already make calling in Air Strikes more accurate.
Assaults (Fragger, Thunder and Rhino) are already meat shields that offer much more then 8hp more to Aura.

Now, I get these are the easiest to implement but I just hope for much smaller yet more impactful changes.