For those of you who say the new burst rifles are "better"

(Ritobasu) #1

PLEASE explain to us how they are better after the recent patch. Thank you to the random anonymous person who took time to do the math on the new (and old) DPS charts

Assuming PERFECT ideal conditions, the old BR-16 did around 137 body DPS, not this outrageous 165 DPS that the Dirty Bomb wiki says and so many people cite (I’m genuinely curious as how they arrived at this number). And as the picture explains, the nature of burst rifles makes them more difficult to control to maximize their DPS edge against the M4, meaning that missing a burst could be potentially fatal against people who could maintain a steady stream of fire back with minimal inaccuracy. With the new patch, they not only increased delay between bursts a ton, but also lowered the ROF of the 3-round burst of the BR-16. Now there is practically no room for error in a CQC fight.

The only positive thing one can find about this is that thanks to the damage boosts, headshots have a higher initial DPS and are definitely more effective per burst. But realistically, how often are you going to land all 3 shots at the same time on the dome of a wall-hopping Sparks or Phoenix who’s also shooting back?

The burst rifles may be “better” at being defined for mid/long range combat, but they’re even worse at that now. At longer range, it gets more difficult to land multiple headshots in succession, and your body DPS is still worse than the M4. And don’t forget the person on the other end is shooting back at you.

Ironic that hard numbers have to be brought up to show how bad the current state of burst rifles are, when it was just hard numbers (theoretical paper DPS) that made a very small and vocal minority cry foul about them. That’s why all the competitive Skyhammers and Fraggers ran BR-16 loadouts, right? :neutral:

(Eox) #2

“You have set the burst weapons […] as the worst weapons in the game”.

Just one word : shotguns. Seriously, I’d trade a shotgun for a burst fire anytime if I was allowed to. Shotguns just loose too much of their killing potential at long ranges, reason why they are hardly played in competition where most of battles happen at mid-long range (if I follow what was said by “pro players”). BR-16 on Fletcher, make it happen !

Burst fire weapons are dealing pretty strong burst damage, 51 for BR-16, 54 for Stark AR. Putting a full burst in the head deals an insane amount of damage, allowing you to one shot 100 hp mercs and lower. It’s pretty scary said like this, so I don’t think that reducing the time between burst is such a good idea. However, we can make the bursts are more reliable from afar by increasing the RPM of a single burst I guess : instead of a 800 RPM on BR-16, you get 900 or something, so the gap between bullets is even tighter.

Looking at the burst fires stats : burst fires are better to kill anywthing with 100 hp and below than M4 (assuming you are getting heads everytime). Fragger, 110 and 120 hp mercs will indeed be killed faster with M4, though in the case of Fragger the delay is seriously negligible. Then Burst fire takes back the lead when it’s about killing Thunder (not here yet) and Rhino. Considering the number of 120 and 110 hp mercs, and what’s over and below, I think it’s fairly balanced on this one. We have however to agree that an assault rifle is easier to handle.

I’d wait a bit before deciding myself. With the new damage values decreasing the time between bursts could be tricky. I’d say, put BR-16’s delay to 180 instead of 217 and Stark’s delay to 220 instead of 260 : seems fair. But I’d really wait a bit before deciding. I need further playtesting personally.

(Juja) #3

I had played with Arty like an 80% of my time in DB (300h) and the weapon i chose for him was the Stark Ar, i started to control the time between the bursts so good that people in the chat told me i was hacking or something. When the Containment War update arrived i jumped into a match with Stoker and the Satrk ar, you can’t imagine how i felt when i saw the Stark shooting that slow.

The bursts fire sepons are the type of guns its really hard to know how to play good with them in all types of situations. Why did you punished all the skilled players that have spent hours like me trying to control that weapons changing the way them shoot? I understand the game is in Beta and you have to improve things you think are bad, but the little number of people that play this weapons are so daaam fucked up sith this new changes. Hope you fix this soon. @MissMurder

(Dawnlazy) #4

They really are so bad right now that the Dreiss feels much more comfortable to use, even though it has never recovered from that dark day when the fire rate was inexplicably nerfed.

(KattiValk) #5

How long is it going to take them to “fix” the Arty/Kira weapons? My two favorite Orientals are crying in a shallow grave right now as the kill feed is nothing but M4, M4, and hey Kek 10.

(Grave_Knight) #6

Imagine that, the burst rifles deal more burst damage and less sustained damage, it’s as if they’re burst weapons.

…oriental? Are you aware the negative connotation that word has among Asian Americans (particularly East Asians), especially those who lived through Post-War America? So how about we just call them East Asian instead, okay?

(Besides oriental is the vaguest description you can give a person or thing, it just means east.)

(Amerika) #7

I honestly love the changes. The guns used to feel like rather terrible versions of better automatic weapons. Now they feel like they are legit burst weapons that you can use to your advantage (think doorway strafing like an Aura with a shotgun). Also, there is no recoil or sway you have to control or predict. You basically put your crosshair on the guy and click and they melt at almost any distance. I get so many kills where I simply go, “wtf he died??”.

The guns might have gotten a potential damage nerf but the mechanics as they are now definitely fit how I play much better which is more important to me.

(Subzstance) #8

Current BR is fine don’t change it.

(Kyskythyn) #9

[left]First of all, a math note. Correct me if I’m wrong, but the DPS for both burst rifles would actually be a bit lower than what you have as you’re not taking into account the wait after the last burst.
You did:
(17dmg3bullets10bursts)/(.217s10bursts + .225s9waits) = 121.57dps
With the extra wait:
(17dmg3bullets10bursts)/(.217s10bursts + .225s10waits) = 115.38dps

I was curious about how the BR and M4 stacked up against each other so I ran some numbers. Here’s the results:
[/left]

[left]So yes, the M4 has higher DPS if you stand there and shoot people for an extended period of time. The burst rifles though have their dps frontloaded. As in, within the first burst, your dps is higher for the duration of the burst then falls to its minimum of 115 at the end of the pause. I believe that’s where SD is getting their “only just higher” dps. Personally, I prefer the BR as for the duration of the pause, you don’t have to be staring at your enemy, you can be ducking into cover or moving. The first two bursts where the BR is on par or better than the M4 can be all you need to finish someone. That said, the M4 has much less recoil and is overall easier to use, so I think it definitely has the advantage over the BR. So in summary, the M4 is generally better imo, but I think the BR has its place and is not as “unusable” as some people would have it.

TLDR: Burst rifles can burst[/left]

(KattiValk) #10

[quote=“Grave Knight;105574”]
…oriental? Are you aware the negative connotation that word has among Asian Americans (particularly East Asians), especially those who lived through Post-War America? So how about we just call them East Asian instead, okay?

(Besides oriental is the vaguest description you can give a person or thing, it just means east.)[/quote]As a first generation Chinese immigrant I really can’t relate all that much? :confused:
Admittedly, I’m not longer a citizen but that’s because China doesn’t like dual citizenships.

I will say I’m very…not racist with what I consider offensive. Yes, terms like Jap or negro can be considered derogatory, but getting really fussy over stuff like that is like banning Imperial or Confederate flags: anti-racist/intolerant. Oriental really isn’t even that far down the line of potentially rude things to say. Though I haven’t actually been cursed out of a friend’s house for being a “worthless ****” that steals all the white guys and jobs by their sagely wise grandmother recently so I guess I can’t say I’m very in touch as of late.

(Jams by Betty) #11

It’s irrelevant how the guns “feel” now, what matters is the change was unwarranted in the first place - it’s a hard nerf in the guise of making the game feel more varied. The changes could have been implemented in a more creative way than simple statistic adjustment, and SD should have held off on changing them for variety’s sake until something other than an outright reduction in effectiveness could be developed.

(Samniss_Arandeen) #12

The increase in damage was unneeded, and the pauses a bit too long. I’d up the ROF on the bursts, shorten the pauses, and decrease the individual bullet damage.

[quote=“Incoming;105667”][quote=“Grave Knight;105574”]
…oriental? Are you aware the negative connotation that word has among Asian Americans (particularly East Asians), especially those who lived through Post-War America? So how about we just call them East Asian instead, okay?

(Besides oriental is the vaguest description you can give a person or thing, it just means east.)[/quote]As a first generation Chinese immigrant I really can’t relate all that much? :confused:
Admittedly, I’m not longer a citizen but that’s because China doesn’t like dual citizenships.

I will say I’m very…not racist with what I consider offensive. Yes, terms like Jap or negro can be considered derogatory, but getting really fussy over stuff like that is like banning Imperial or Confederate flags: anti-racist/intolerant. Oriental really isn’t even that far down the line of potentially rude things to say. Though I haven’t actually been cursed out of a friend’s house for being a “worthless ****” that steals all the white guys and jobs by their sagely wise grandmother recently so I guess I can’t say I’m very in touch as of late.[/quote]
He’s a social justice warrior, if you’re not offended then he’ll get offended for you.

(Amerika) #13

[quote=“Kyskythyn;105640”][left]That said, the M4 has much less recoil and is overall easier to use, so I think it definitely has the advantage over the BR. So in summary, the M4 is generally better imo, but I think the BR has its place and is not as “unusable” as some people would have it.

TLDR: Burst rifles can burst[/left][/quote]

The BR16 and Stark currently have almost no recoil. I pull down on every gun in this game when I fire and I don’t pull down even the slightest when using the BR or Stark. So I am not sure how the M4, which definitely has recoil/sway that you have to control, has less than guns that have essentially zero :slight_smile: There is a tiny amount of bullet rise during the burst but it’s very little and only requires attention when firing at very long distances.

(Sussepus) #14

I play kira and recently arty a lot and honestly i dont see the big difference.
is this the usual hyperboles coming from players who are unable to adapt to a new situation?
Coming from a game where doomsday prophecies flooded forums after every little change this sounds very familiar.

(Amerika) #15

[quote=“Sussepus;105892”]I play kira and recently arty a lot and honestly i dont see the big difference.
is this the usual hyperboles coming from players who are unable to adapt to a new situation?
Coming from a game where doomsday prophecies flooded forums after every little change this sounds very familiar. [/quote]

Nah, I watched a few videos with the older BR16 and Stark and you could fire them super quick compared to the way they work now. I personally have no issues with the change because I didn’t like how the older style handled as they just felt like automatic rifles but with few of the benefits. But anybody who did like that style and the timing of how they fired would be upset and they have every right to be. I like that the guns actually work for burst DPS now and chunk down people without exposing yourself too much but people who used them like an M4 and loved that style would most likely not like that.

So I wouldn’t say it’s hyperbole. It’s a big change. I just don’t agree with the assessment that the guns are worthless or even weak.

(VincentRJaeger) #16

My main gripe with the burstfire rifles is that, atleast to me, they feel unreliable. Maybe not the BR-16 but the Stark definetly. It’s really powerful at times, but ridiculously weak at other times. Not worthless or weak, but… hard to find the right word, just unreliable really.

I would really want to decrease the delay between each burst with a little bit atleast because right now it feels like shooting a shotgun at long range, atleast on the Stark. Make it perhaps a bit more accurate, or lower the recoil on it… I honestly don’t know what I want with the burstfire rifles, I just feel that they are lackluster somehow.

Lot of feelings but little facts, I apologize about it.

(Amerika) #17

It is less reliable than it used to be for a player who is used to the old way they worked. With the past iterations of each gun you basically treated them like an M4 that you had to click a lot more often. It simply required tracking and and some timing and it was easier to use in a panic (but harder than an M4 still IMO). If you don’t have solid tracking quite yet, solid timing quite yet and are still prone to panic in a few situations it’s going to be pretty unreliable with the new way the guns fire. I honestly think more time and experience will fix those issues for a lot of players. But that’s just a guess on my part but it’s not an uneducated one since I have put in a lot of time with each gun recently and put up some proof of concept videos.

Time will tell :slight_smile:

(Grave_Knight) #18

[quote=“Incoming;105667”][quote=“Grave Knight;105574”]
…oriental? Are you aware the negative connotation that word has among Asian Americans (particularly East Asians), especially those who lived through Post-War America? So how about we just call them East Asian instead, okay?

(Besides oriental is the vaguest description you can give a person or thing, it just means east.)[/quote]As a first generation Chinese immigrant I really can’t relate all that much? :confused:
Admittedly, I’m not longer a citizen but that’s because China doesn’t like dual citizenships.[/quote]I had a feeling it was something like that. It’s not big deal really.

[quote=“Samniss_Arandeen;105704”]He’s a social justice warrior, if you’re not offended then he’ll get offended for you.[/quote]Have you considered, maybe, just maybe, I could be of East Asian descent and have, just a little, resentment towards Post-War America resentment to East Asians? I mean, would it even be so far to imagine that, just maybe, I might be of Japanese descent with family that had to live through that bullshit? …

(VincentRJaeger) #19

^^^Maybe we could tone that down to a minimum and not derail the thread please?^^^

@Amerika There’s also the matter of the scope too. That thing is just annoying to use if you aim to have a Burstfire to countersnipe or go for longrange engagements that require ADS, something I have seen is necessary on Kira and Arty atleast.

Maybe I’m just bad at it though. I’ve never been a shining star on burstfire rifles in any game.

(Ritobasu) #20

I’m seeing a lot of anecdotal experience and not hard evidence that burst rifles are better or unchanged. Even in the face of researched data, people are still trying to rationalize that the burst rifles are fine “because it works for me”. That’s great for you, but it’s not a valid argument for why burst rifles should remain the way they are.

The very ironic thing is that some Splash Damage moderator/community manager/developer on Reddit said the changes were intended to making burst rifles LESS tracking reliant. Why would you do that while lowering the burst RPM on the BR-16 at the same time as increasing the burst delay a significant amount? You have to track even more now, it’s hilariously counterproductive to what they were trying to accomplish