First impression feedback


(viruzz.) #1

Hi,

So far, the game feels quite good for an Alpha, that’s definately something that needs to be said. It already amuses me more then games that are currently on the market as a full product.

Now, I played some games yesterday and this is basicly so far the only concerns im having:

- Hitmarkers / Feedback
This is something that needs to be improved. For example, compare it to the old ET hitmarkers, you had this awesome sound that would give you feedback wether you hit your target or not. Even had this nice ‘ping’ sound when making a headshot. Something that in my opinions needs to get looked into.

As i’m currently having no clue wether i’m hitting a target or not. The current hit feedback is in my opinion, far below par.

- Leaning
In my opinion this would add a whole new dimension to this game, as there are lots of corners which would be great to be leaning behind. Just like in ET would be more then fine. It’s something that i’m missing in this game and would be of great use.

- Gunfights overall / Hit registration
Overall, the gunfights are still a point that needs to get looked into, it somehow feels a bit like ET (with the longer fights then in most other shooters), though sometimes I have the feeling it’s not really tagging the person on the position im aiming at. But for example a tiny bit lower or higher (missing the target). Though, this counts as in moving gunfights, so not when im standing still and shooting on a target but when im on the move. It feels like the accuracy compared to ET isn’t as it should be.

- Strafejumping
Something very popular from ET. And it’s something i’m missing aswell. The movement in that game was awesome. Even though the movements in the current Alpha, feel more then fine. I still think that was something that made it a really strong game.

- Aim down sight
In my opinion something that shouldn’t even be in the game. That’s one more point what made ET so popular and feel so good. No aiming down sight, just plain weapon accuracy and fight till the first 3 headshots have fallen.

Please bare in mind that these are all just my opinion. Even though I might compare this game a bit too much with Wolfenstein: Enemy Territory, I feel these would be quite nice changes to the game. Feel free to discuss

Answers from dev’s so far:

[QUOTE=Anti;457183]I’ll try to give you a quick update.

From what we’ve seen there aren’t really any reg bugs, there are some things that need looking at though:

[ul]
[li]Order and delay of network data for shots[/li][li]Perception of hits[/li][li]General performance[/li][/ul]

In the first case the way our ‘netcode’ is setup means that people with over 90ms ping will often experience short delays in getting feedback from the server about shots, this makes the shooting feel a bit…odd. Technically you’re still hitting what you’re aiming at, but the feedback is somewhat delayed.

At some point in the near future we’re going to tweak those values to make it feel better. We do have other options we could try if we can’t make this system feel good, although they involve a scary amount of work :rolleyes:

The second issue is a lot of you folks often think you’re hitting when you’re not, you’re actually missing but in the chaos of the firefight that’s not clear enough. There are a bunch of reasons for this:

[ul]
[li]Our hit boxes are a lot tighter to the model than in many FPS, we’re less forgiving than what you’re used to in that regard[/li][li]We have a lot less spread than most other current FPS games, again affecting your feelings of what should hit and miss[/li][li]Our hit sounds aren’t great[/li][li]We lack other hit feedback indicators (i.e. X-hair info, bigger blood, gibbs etc)[/li][li]A lot of guns still play more shot sounds than they actually fire shots, so sometimes you think you fired when you didn’t[/li][/ul]

Many of these things we’re going to change for the better or fix, maybe not next patch but over the next month or two.

As for performance, as most of you know unless you have a beast of a machine right now the game can be slow and this does make aiming and judging hits really tough. We’ll be continually improving performance between now and release of the game, so you’ll gradually see this get better.

So in summary we still have a lot of targets related to the guns and shooting to fix and tweak, all of which should improve the feel of the game. We’re certainly not done here :slight_smile:

In terms of time to kill, we’re still reasonably comfortable with how the game is going in that regard. We do come back to it regularly, to see how we feel as the game has been changing and as we work on new maps, so we may well tweak stuff in future (we have read the body shots versus head shots discussions etc), but in the short term it’ll stay as is until we’ve addressed some other issues (like those mentioned above).

Hope that makes sense and gives you some idea where we’re at.[/QUOTE]


(Kendle) #2

Just quickly …

hit-sounds - they’re not final, just placeholders at the moment, better ones will be added at some point (it’s an Alpha)

leaning - pretty sure it’s been discussed, pretty sure the answer is No.

strafe-jumping - something we’d all like, but SD have stated they’re not going to develop it (remember, this is a different engine, they didn’t put strafe-jumping in ET, it was already there in the engine, DB uses UE3, which doesn’t have it).

aim down sight - no need to remove it, don’t like it? don’t use it, simples :slight_smile:


(fzl) #3

Hitmarkers / Feedback
This is something that needs to be improved. For example, compare it to the old ET hitmarkers, you had this awesome sound that would give you feedback wether you hit your target or not. Even had this nice ‘ping’ sound when making a headshot. Something that in my opinions needs to get looked into.

100% Agree!!

  • Strafejumping
    Something very popular from ET. And it’s something i’m missing aswell. The movement in that game was awesome. Even though the movements in the current Alpha, feel more then fine. I still think that was something that made it a really strong game.

This is not Quake Engine!!


(ImageOmega) #4

Good post, viruzz. Are you a NA gamer?

ADS is unnecessary for most guns anyways and, again, in most cases hip fire is superior.

Have we had a dev weigh in on the whole bullet registration thing? I’d like to hear what the consensus from SD is on how they feel about hit registration and time to kill.


(viruzz.) #5

[QUOTE=Kendle;457168]Just quickly …

hit-sounds - they’re not final, just placeholders at the moment, better ones will be added at some point (it’s an Alpha)

leaning - pretty sure it’s been discussed, pretty sure the answer is No.

strafe-jumping - something we’d all like, but SD have stated they’re not going to develop it (remember, this is a different engine, they didn’t put strafe-jumping in ET, it was already there in the engine, DB uses UE3, which doesn’t have it).

aim down sight - no need to remove it, don’t like it? don’t use it, simples :)[/QUOTE]

I know it’s an alpha, that’s the reason i’m giving them feedback, otherwise I couldn’t even been bothered. But since it’s still in early development stage I find it quite useful to give feedback at this point.

As you might have noticed im pretty new to the forums/game and didn’t crosscheck any of the above made statements with previous forum posts. To be honest, that would cost me a lot of time, so don’t pin me down on repeating stuff that appearantly already has been spoken about.

I wasn’t familiar with the kind of engine they were using, but as it seems the engine has obviously changed so I guess strafe would indeed be a bit overrated to try to reconstruct that.

[QUOTE=ImageOmega;457170]Good post, viruzz. Are you a NA gamer?

ADS is unnecessary for most guns anyways and, again, in most cases hip fire is superior.

Have we had a dev weigh in on the whole bullet registration thing? I’d like to hear what the consensus from SD is on how they feel about hit registration and time to kill.[/QUOTE]

I’m from the Netherlands. So sorry, no NA here. Haha!

I’m already thinking about unbinding my mouse2, as it is indeed in most cases not needed and for some reason I still keep pressing the button to do so as it gives you the idea you need to use it to get a better accuracy with the weapon, though that doesn’t completely seems to be the case as hipfire is indeed superiour to it.

As your last statement, that would if it isn’t there yet be quite helpful I suppose. It’s some information I would be dying to hear though as that for me is the biggest concern here.


(Anti) #6

[QUOTE=ImageOmega;457170]Good post, viruzz. Are you a NA gamer?

ADS is unnecessary for most guns anyways and, again, in most cases hip fire is superior.

Have we had a dev weigh in on the whole bullet registration thing? I’d like to hear what the consensus from SD is on how they feel about hit registration and time to kill.[/QUOTE]

I’ll try to give you a quick update.

From what we’ve seen there aren’t really any reg bugs, there are some things that need looking at though:

[ul]
[li]Order and delay of network data for shots
[/li][li]Perception of hits
[/li][li]General performance
[/li][/ul]

In the first case the way our ‘netcode’ is setup means that people with over 90ms ping will often experience short delays in getting feedback from the server about shots, this makes the shooting feel a bit…odd. Technically you’re still hitting what you’re aiming at, but the feedback is somewhat delayed.

At some point in the near future we’re going to tweak those values to make it feel better. We do have other options we could try if we can’t make this system feel good, although they involve a scary amount of work :rolleyes:

The second issue is a lot of you folks often think you’re hitting when you’re not, you’re actually missing but in the chaos of the firefight that’s not clear enough. There are a bunch of reasons for this:

[ul]
[li]Our hit boxes are a lot tighter to the model than in many FPS, we’re less forgiving than what you’re used to in that regard
[/li][li]We have a lot less spread than most other current FPS games, again affecting your feelings of what should hit and miss
[/li][li]Our hit sounds aren’t great
[/li][li]We lack other hit feedback indicators (i.e. X-hair info, bigger blood, gibbs etc)
[/li][li]A lot of guns still play more shot sounds than they actually fire shots, so sometimes you think you fired when you didn’t
[/li][/ul]

Many of these things we’re going to change for the better or fix, maybe not next patch but over the next month or two.

As for performance, as most of you know unless you have a beast of a machine right now the game can be slow and this does make aiming and judging hits really tough. We’ll be continually improving performance between now and release of the game, so you’ll gradually see this get better.

So in summary we still have a lot of targets related to the guns and shooting to fix and tweak, all of which should improve the feel of the game. We’re certainly not done here :slight_smile:

In terms of time to kill, we’re still reasonably comfortable with how the game is going in that regard. We do come back to it regularly, to see how we feel as the game has been changing and as we work on new maps, so we may well tweak stuff in future (we have read the body shots versus head shots discussions etc), but in the short term it’ll stay as is until we’ve addressed some other issues (like those mentioned above).

Hope that makes sense and gives you some idea where we’re at.


(Samurai.) #7

Nice post anti, i’d just like to add that i feel the weapon tracers for many guns are pretty deceiving and off putting during firefights for me personally. I often see if i aim in one direction and move in the other it leaves a kind of wave of bullet trails of the history of shots, for me personally i don’t like this as they look on target but are not and i also find it distracting mid way through a fight. If there was a option to remove weapon tracers via player preference that would be excellent.

@Viruzz. - you bring up some good points, i have already tried to push strafe jumping in as many ways as i can, even suggesting compromised versions of it that are experienced in games like BF3, but SD still seem reluctant to implement which i think they will regret later on.


(.N.E.R.D.) #8

[QUOTE=Anti;457183
The second issue is a lot of you folks often think you’re hitting when you’re not, you’re actually missing but in the chaos of the firefight that’s not clear enough. There are a bunch of reasons for this:

THIS is a big part of the mistery in my opinion.
It is easier to blame it on something then to acknowledge it’s the own aim.

I guess we have to wait for the demo function to sort some things out.


(Ashog) #9

THIS worries me. I am obviously not in any position to tell, but isn’t it worth to do it completely right from the start, even if it takes a lot of work? Before it’s too late? I mean, netcode is along with gameplay and custom content/SDK the main component of success for a MP game for me (and I hope most people too). Bad netcode was one of the three things that almost killed ETQW prematurely.


(Hundopercent) #10

[QUOTE=Anti;457183]
The second issue is a lot of you folks often think you’re hitting when you’re not, you’re actually missing but in the chaos of the firefight that’s not clear enough. There are a bunch of reasons for this:[/quote]

[QUOTE=.N.E.R.D.;457196]
THIS is a big part of the mistery in my opinion.
It is easier to blame it on something then to acknowledge it’s the own aim.

I guess we have to wait for the demo function to sort some things out.[/QUOTE]

I can confirm this and Anti even scrubbed footage that I sent him. If you miss, you missed even if you’re just a few pixels off the body, it’s a miss. This is great for comp players but as I mentioned to him I’m not sure how it will go with the more casual (money) crowd. The hit boxes are a bit tight (mostly because the models are so skinny.) I feel FireFall has the best hit boxes I’ve seen. They are not as tight as DB but near as inflated as Q3, RtCW, or WET. This gives a more forgiving and probably less frustrating experience for users so they aren’t like, “WTF why am I not hitting.”

As for the OP I agree with some of what you said. I don’t believe the game needs leaning, proning, or strafe jumping with the way the sprint works and how tight the maps are. I wouldn’t mind some shortcut paths to get around the map that require well timed jumps but that would be about it for me. ADS isn’t a big deal just don’t right click. =P


(viruzz.) #11

Thank you everyone for posting so far. Specially Anti for clearing some things up here.

As i’m aware it’s an Alpha, I still think it’s good to give some sort of feedback/criticism to get some things ‘sorted’, instead of getting the answer: it’s an Alpha, give it time. This was a very polite way to keep us up-2-date on that front. This had to be said.

To be honest I know when i’m missing, i’m also aware of the fact that they hitboxes are tight, I played W:ET, and the past few cod’s, Arctic Combat etc. on a high leven and I am aware of how aiming in an fps game works. And it’s probably not the fact that we’re ‘missing’ what’s bugging me the most, but probably just the simple fact that as Anti himself mentioned earlier, there is no decent hit feedback in the game yet. Which makes it somehow in my opinion more of a gamble in straight 1v1 fights. When one person has a decent hit feedback he adjusts his aim untill he sees the hitmark (or hears the sound), though currently you don’t get that feedback so it’s more of a spray and pray sort of 1v1 fights which includes desperately trying to follow your target with your crosshair without noticing wether it hits or not. I think that’s basicly what we’re really missing the most here.

As mentioned earlier, for an Alpha, it’s a damn good game and looks pretty promising. Keep up the good work!

What I forgot to ask though is how about weapon pickups? I haven’t seen a dead person drop his gun yet… is this something that will be added in the game? Has there been spoken about? It would make a nice addition to implement it.


(Nail) #12

hit boxes in W:ET were about 4 times as big, these hug the outline


(Hundopercent) #13

[QUOTE=viruzz.;457272]Thank you everyone for posting so far. Specially Anti for clearing some things up here.

As i’m aware it’s an Alpha, I still think it’s good to give some sort of feedback/criticism to get some things ‘sorted’, instead of getting the answer: it’s an Alpha, give it time. This was a very polite way to keep us up-2-date on that front. This had to be said.

To be honest I know when i’m missing, i’m also aware of the fact that they hitboxes are tight, I played W:ET, and the past few cod’s, Arctic Combat etc. on a high leven and I am aware of how aiming in an fps game works. And it’s probably not the fact that we’re ‘missing’ what’s bugging me the most, but probably just the simple fact that as Anti himself mentioned earlier, there is no decent hit feedback in the game yet. Which makes it somehow in my opinion more of a gamble in straight 1v1 fights. When one person has a decent hit feedback he adjusts his aim untill he sees the hitmark (or hears the sound), though currently you don’t get that feedback so it’s more of a spray and pray sort of 1v1 fights which includes desperately trying to follow your target with your crosshair without noticing wether it hits or not. I think that’s basicly what we’re really missing the most here.

As mentioned earlier, for an Alpha, it’s a damn good game and looks pretty promising. Keep up the good work!

What I forgot to ask though is how about weapon pickups? I haven’t seen a dead person drop his gun yet… is this something that will be added in the game? Has there been spoken about? It would make a nice addition to implement it.[/QUOTE]

It was in and removed. Guns dropping and giving ammo pretty much removed the Lt as a worthwhile playable class and made the old medic too strong.

As for the hit feedback I agree entirely and as Anti said it will be worked on and hopefully implemented in the next few months. I think the sounds being off are the real killer for me because I time my aim with the firing of the gun.


(Anti) #14

@samurai: I totally agree about the tracers and we’ve already mentioned it in the office. It’s a result of our fast strafe speed that they look so off but we might be able to do some things to make them better.

@ashog: it’s not really a case of it being wrong, it’s a case of where we’ll accept it being bad. No matter how you approach your net code there is always going to be some circumstance where that system falls down a bit.

For example our original client-side code allowed high latency players at around 300ms to kill a target before they got any indication they were hit. This was obviously bad but did mean low latency guys own shots were responsive. The changes we made prevented laggers having this advantage but caused unacceptable delay for some folks starting around 90ms, we fixed one problem but moved it to another place. We just need to juggle these values and approaches until we get the best overall result

Now I’ll try to stop describing networking in designer’s terms :smiley:


(Mustang) #15

Holy cow, Anti is on fire, just as one epic post starts to sink in he lands a second.

I LOVE the dirty nerd talk!


(INF3RN0) #16

Someone link Pulley this thread asap :tongue:


(BomBaKlaK) #17

nice news !
Hope some real weapon sound I mean 1 bullet = 1 fire sound.


(rand0m) #18

Strych you play firefall? ;D. Game I’m mostly into right now…add me to friends name is r4nd0m if you are playing :].


(Protekt1) #19

<- Ichigo in FF

I don’t think strych plays tho I never see him on


(Hundopercent) #20

Nah I retired it a long time ago when it was just a which team will step out and shoot first TDM. It was terrible. I’m sure it’s better now but meh. I’ve seen the hitboxes for that game and they’re solid. Not too big not too small. I think we even had an SS on the forums some where about them.

In reality, having tight hit boxes may not be the exact problem but when you got tiny models and tight hotboxes it is. This game is by far the most difficult I’ve played because of that combination. I always hate seeing the female medic, it’s like trying to shoot a coat rack with scoliosis on speed.