(Feature request) Autobalancing

(Drcipres) #1

One of the main problems that I see that cause unbalanced matches is this

Ways to not let this happen ( in my opinion ) Leave sometime to someone to come and join to the team with less players, if this doesnt happen, bring one player from the team with more players to the one with less players.
Also to prevent stacking in the lobby maybe make things like this:

 Player´s levels: 4 + 5 + 9 + 10 + 6 + 7 + 4 +20 + 43 + 64 + 16 + 12
 Something that can happen: 10 + 43 + 64 + 7+ 9 + 12  VS  4 + 5 + 6 + 4 + 16 + 20
 The example that I type above is a clear example of unbalanced matches, because it will be 145 lvls in one team vs 55 lvls so instead of doing random teams like this example, make that the lvls in one team are equal or atleast near to the lvls in the other team.

Around 95 lvls in 1 team vs 95 lvls in the other team. (I just used the calculator, I might did something wrong, but hopefull you catch what I´m trying to say)
This is just my opinion, maybe is a terrible idea or a good idea, I´m hear to hear what you think

(Amerika) #2

So, if you’re a level 55 but not very good at the game you will constantly lose because of your level and not because a skill based system was using to try and average out skill between the teams regardless of a meaningless number. Do you consider that to be a good system? You play a lot, aren’t that great and lose constantly simply because you play a lot?

I wish the game would show, at least to individual players, your hidden pub rating. So that people are aware that the game is balancing based on this as opposed to something as generic as level.

I’ve been playing basketball longer than an NBA rookie. I should be better than them right?

(Drcipres) #3

[quote=“Amerika;113345”]So, if you’re a level 55 but not very good at the game. You will constantly lose because of your level and not because a skill based system was using to try and average out skill between the teams regardless of a meaningless number. Do you consider that to be a good system? You play a lot, aren’t that great and lose constantly simply because you play a lot?

I wish the game would show, at least to individual players, your hidden pub rating. So that people are aware that the game is balancing based on this as opposed to something as generic as level.

I’ve been playing basketball longer than an NBA rookie. I should be better than them right?[/quote]

This can happen, but most of the time a high level will mean high skill, Im terrible at FPS but I do decent in this one because I put a bunch of hours on it.
I got only around 140 h on bf4, and because of that Im terrible at it

(Amerika) #4

[quote=“Drcipres;113347”][quote=“Amerika;113345”]So, if you’re a level 55 but not very good at the game. You will constantly lose because of your level and not because a skill based system was using to try and average out skill between the teams regardless of a meaningless number. Do you consider that to be a good system? You play a lot, aren’t that great and lose constantly simply because you play a lot?

I wish the game would show, at least to individual players, your hidden pub rating. So that people are aware that the game is balancing based on this as opposed to something as generic as level.

I’ve been playing basketball longer than an NBA rookie. I should be better than them right?[/quote]

This can happen, but most of the time a high level will mean high skill, Im terrible at FPS but I do decent in this one because I put a bunch of hours on it.
I got only around 140 h on bf4, and because of that Im terrible at it[/quote]

I know and play with tons of people who are high level. Most of them are pretty average at best. As soon as you start balancing off of level instead of the hidden rating that each player has you will start seeing even more imbalanced matches. Right now the system goes off of what it believes you are capable of as opposed to something generic like a level that doesn’t factor in any kind of skill. So long time players will start getting penalized because they are a long time player and proceed to get stomped over and over because that type of system completely ignores any type of skill rating.

The current system is not perfect but it’s a lot better than trying to balance by level only that doesn’t even care about actual skill estimate. This is yet another reason why levels need to be hidden, or at least have the option of being hidden, from public view. If you lose or even if you win by a lot people look at the scoreboard and immediately try to assign blame to the levels of the players rather than look at the scores or how they played their mercs.

(Drcipres) #5

[quote=“Amerika;113349”][quote=“Drcipres;113347”][quote=“Amerika;113345”]So, if you’re a level 55 but not very good at the game. You will constantly lose because of your level and not because a skill based system was using to try and average out skill between the teams regardless of a meaningless number. Do you consider that to be a good system? You play a lot, aren’t that great and lose constantly simply because you play a lot?

I wish the game would show, at least to individual players, your hidden pub rating. So that people are aware that the game is balancing based on this as opposed to something as generic as level.

I’ve been playing basketball longer than an NBA rookie. I should be better than them right?[/quote]

This can happen, but most of the time a high level will mean high skill, Im terrible at FPS but I do decent in this one because I put a bunch of hours on it.
I got only around 140 h on bf4, and because of that Im terrible at it[/quote]

I know and play with tons of people who are high level. Most of them are pretty average at best. As soon as you start balancing off of level instead of the hidden rating that each player has you will start seeing even more imbalanced matches. Right now the system goes off of what it believes you are capable of as opposed to something generic like a level that doesn’t factor in any kind of skill. So long time players will start getting penalized because they are a long time player and proceed to get stomped over and over because that type of system completely ignores any type of skill rating.

The current system is not perfect but it’s a lot better than trying to balance by level only that doesn’t even care about actual skill estimate. This is yet another reason why levels need to be hidden, or at least have the option of being hidden, from public view. If you lose or even if you win by a lot people look at the scoreboard and immediately try to assign blame to the levels of the players rather than look at the scores or how they played their mercs.[/quote]

In that case, what about balancing by maybe a stat like accuracy or something like that ? Something that proves skill

(Amerika) #6

[quote=“Drcipres;113352”][quote=“Amerika;113349”][quote=“Drcipres;113347”][quote=“Amerika;113345”]So, if you’re a level 55 but not very good at the game. You will constantly lose because of your level and not because a skill based system was using to try and average out skill between the teams regardless of a meaningless number. Do you consider that to be a good system? You play a lot, aren’t that great and lose constantly simply because you play a lot?

I wish the game would show, at least to individual players, your hidden pub rating. So that people are aware that the game is balancing based on this as opposed to something as generic as level.

I’ve been playing basketball longer than an NBA rookie. I should be better than them right?[/quote]

This can happen, but most of the time a high level will mean high skill, Im terrible at FPS but I do decent in this one because I put a bunch of hours on it.
I got only around 140 h on bf4, and because of that Im terrible at it[/quote]

I know and play with tons of people who are high level. Most of them are pretty average at best. As soon as you start balancing off of level instead of the hidden rating that each player has you will start seeing even more imbalanced matches. Right now the system goes off of what it believes you are capable of as opposed to something generic like a level that doesn’t factor in any kind of skill. So long time players will start getting penalized because they are a long time player and proceed to get stomped over and over because that type of system completely ignores any type of skill rating.

The current system is not perfect but it’s a lot better than trying to balance by level only that doesn’t even care about actual skill estimate. This is yet another reason why levels need to be hidden, or at least have the option of being hidden, from public view. If you lose or even if you win by a lot people look at the scoreboard and immediately try to assign blame to the levels of the players rather than look at the scores or how they played their mercs.[/quote]

In that case, what about balancing by maybe a stat like accuracy or something like that ? Something that proves skill[/quote]

That is already done. There is a hidden pub rating that everyone gets which is based on your personal performance in the last 10 games. The problem is that the rating is hidden as opposed to being shown (at least to the player) so everyone just assumes incorrectly that pubs are balanced (or not balanced) based on level. If pubs weren’t based on performance and instead on level you’d also see smurfs horribly unbalancing things too.

(Drcipres) #7

[quote=“Amerika;113357”][quote=“Drcipres;113352”][quote=“Amerika;113349”][quote=“Drcipres;113347”][quote=“Amerika;113345”]So, if you’re a level 55 but not very good at the game. You will constantly lose because of your level and not because a skill based system was using to try and average out skill between the teams regardless of a meaningless number. Do you consider that to be a good system? You play a lot, aren’t that great and lose constantly simply because you play a lot?

I wish the game would show, at least to individual players, your hidden pub rating. So that people are aware that the game is balancing based on this as opposed to something as generic as level.

I’ve been playing basketball longer than an NBA rookie. I should be better than them right?[/quote]

This can happen, but most of the time a high level will mean high skill, Im terrible at FPS but I do decent in this one because I put a bunch of hours on it.
I got only around 140 h on bf4, and because of that Im terrible at it[/quote]

I know and play with tons of people who are high level. Most of them are pretty average at best. As soon as you start balancing off of level instead of the hidden rating that each player has you will start seeing even more imbalanced matches. Right now the system goes off of what it believes you are capable of as opposed to something generic like a level that doesn’t factor in any kind of skill. So long time players will start getting penalized because they are a long time player and proceed to get stomped over and over because that type of system completely ignores any type of skill rating.

The current system is not perfect but it’s a lot better than trying to balance by level only that doesn’t even care about actual skill estimate. This is yet another reason why levels need to be hidden, or at least have the option of being hidden, from public view. If you lose or even if you win by a lot people look at the scoreboard and immediately try to assign blame to the levels of the players rather than look at the scores or how they played their mercs.[/quote]

In that case, what about balancing by maybe a stat like accuracy or something like that ? Something that proves skill[/quote]

That is already done. There is a hidden pub rating that everyone gets which is based on your personal performance in the last 10 games. The problem is that the rating is hidden as opposed to being shown (at least to the player) so everyone just assumes incorrectly that pubs are balanced (or not balanced) based on level. If pubs weren’t based on performance and instead on level you’d also see smurfs horribly unbalancing things too.[/quote]

Are you saying that a match might seem unbalanced or balanced, but it isnt what it seems ?

(Amerika) #8

[quote=“Drcipres;113361”][quote=“Amerika;113357”][quote=“Drcipres;113352”][quote=“Amerika;113349”][quote=“Drcipres;113347”][quote=“Amerika;113345”]So, if you’re a level 55 but not very good at the game. You will constantly lose because of your level and not because a skill based system was using to try and average out skill between the teams regardless of a meaningless number. Do you consider that to be a good system? You play a lot, aren’t that great and lose constantly simply because you play a lot?

I wish the game would show, at least to individual players, your hidden pub rating. So that people are aware that the game is balancing based on this as opposed to something as generic as level.

I’ve been playing basketball longer than an NBA rookie. I should be better than them right?[/quote]

This can happen, but most of the time a high level will mean high skill, Im terrible at FPS but I do decent in this one because I put a bunch of hours on it.
I got only around 140 h on bf4, and because of that Im terrible at it[/quote]

I know and play with tons of people who are high level. Most of them are pretty average at best. As soon as you start balancing off of level instead of the hidden rating that each player has you will start seeing even more imbalanced matches. Right now the system goes off of what it believes you are capable of as opposed to something generic like a level that doesn’t factor in any kind of skill. So long time players will start getting penalized because they are a long time player and proceed to get stomped over and over because that type of system completely ignores any type of skill rating.

The current system is not perfect but it’s a lot better than trying to balance by level only that doesn’t even care about actual skill estimate. This is yet another reason why levels need to be hidden, or at least have the option of being hidden, from public view. If you lose or even if you win by a lot people look at the scoreboard and immediately try to assign blame to the levels of the players rather than look at the scores or how they played their mercs.[/quote]

In that case, what about balancing by maybe a stat like accuracy or something like that ? Something that proves skill[/quote]

That is already done. There is a hidden pub rating that everyone gets which is based on your personal performance in the last 10 games. The problem is that the rating is hidden as opposed to being shown (at least to the player) so everyone just assumes incorrectly that pubs are balanced (or not balanced) based on level. If pubs weren’t based on performance and instead on level you’d also see smurfs horribly unbalancing things too.[/quote]

Are you saying that a match might seem unbalanced or balanced, but it isnt what it seems ?[/quote]

You can only balance a pub so well. For example, there might be 11 people on the server that are about even skilled. But then you get that one guy who is an accomplished competitive veteran, regardless of their level, that will make a match instantly unbalanced. Or you get a guy who is trying to play with a 360 controller. Also, the skill average system can’t take into account how many engineers will play on your team or how many medics. So you might have a team that has a hell of a lot more synergy that will beat down another team despite them having roughly equivalent skill ratings during sorting.

And this doesn’t even factor in that people leave/join mid-match that can unbalance things. In one of the recent patches I believe the skill system applies to the joiner and they no longer only join the attacking team if the attacking team has the same amount of players but instead has them join the weaker skill rated team. But then the next person to join with only one slot left might be absolutely amazing or absolutely terrible which throws off balance. So there is only so much you can do.

(RyePanda) #9

I would like a forced balance for a 5 v 7. +10 credits for switching from the larger team to smaller team. Or some other incentive. Or as I’ve seen suggested that only 5 players can be playing on the 7 side at a time.

(Enzo) #10

Another balancing post.

For now if you’re a high level and have a very high K/D this game will just make you carry. Every game is a carry and after you lose a few times finally you might get lucky and win one.

Now if you play every game like a carry you can win but be prepared to basically do it alone or if you’re lucky another guy. I’ve seen this game go out of it’s way and stack players against me in such a fashion I see the matchmaking and I know it’s gonna be a pubstomp.

To test this theory I’ve played 5 min of the game and the team cannot force a pubstomp. Now the moment I spectate GG all hell breaks lose and they camp the team. I come out of spectate bam they’re pushed back.

Funny thing is this can be replicated so easily. Nowadays I just let the matchmaking balance me and my friends on opposite sides (because they still don’t have party feature) then either he switches out or I do and we just stack and roll teams and watch them hate the game and us.

So either just stack or let your friend stack or ask him to give up his spot and stack. I’m pretty much hated on the Asian server for this but hey I can care less when you give me people who look up into the sky and walls then play the game.

I told Splash Damage two can play this game. So go ahead make my day. To those crying I’m sorry but I’m not playing every game with level 3, 5, 6, 12, 8 vs 23, 32, 18, 15, 5, 7

(Lumi) #11

@OP

The ELO system that is currently used is the most shitty system there is. Even a random shuffle system would be better. Furthermore, most matches start out with people that joined mid-game, or have switched teams making it so that the ELO system isn’t even respected. Levels are indeed a reflection of your skill even if there are 5% of high level players who suck. That’s true, but needs to be ignored.

Balancing games around levels shouldn’t be the focus, nor should be an ElO system. A player who performed well in the 10 previous games, giving him a high ELO score will not necessarily perform at the same level during that match, allowing for errors while shuffling with that system. A simple analysis of the current match’s score distribution can easily indicate a discrepancy and shuffling should base itself on that.

@Amerika

You’re always so biased when it comes to level discussions and imo if we could see everyone’s ELO score it would indicate a clear correlation with level, with the few odd cases here and there. Finally what would show also, is the fact that one or two players with very high ELO score end up in a team full of very low ELO scores against a full team of average ElO scored players. Making the game imbalanced because one or two good players can’t carry a team of bad players vs a full team of decent players. It’s impossible. And unless the ELO system starts compensating for that, the balancing based on ELO scores will still be imbalanced, unless all scores are close to each other.

(SaulWolfden) #12

Better matchmaking mixed with hiding levels would be good changes.

(blisteringOwlNest) #13

is the ELO counted on your personal score or just wins and losses? Do we even know what variables effect it?

(Glot) #14

ELO in DirtyBomb is using only w/l ratio. and it is used in competitive ranked matches only.
But there is also a so called ‘public rank’ and i do not have info on whether it is solely based on wins and losses.
and since i do not see my public rank i do not know - is it correct, or not (like competitive ELO, which is very incorrect at the moment)

(watsyurdeal) #15

Personally I don’t think pubs need any sort of level or rank, it’s a fucking pub guys, you don’t go to bar and expect everyone to be a specific type of person or of some sort of score for how hot they are, it’s a casual environment. Let people play, and more so let people play with their buddies or a solo only server.

As for comp, I think a system that constantly keeps ranking and deranking people will help keep matches as fair as possible, but as long as wins and losses aren’t the only thing factored in here. Average K/D, combat xp per min, support xp per min, objective xp per min, all these things should be factored in also.

(Lumi) #16

[quote=“Watsyurdeal;113831”]Personally I don’t think pubs need any sort of level or rank, it’s a fucking pub guys, you don’t go to bar and expect everyone to be a specific type of person or of some sort of score for how hot they are, it’s a casual environment. Let people play, and more so let people play with their buddies or a solo only server.
[/quote]

In your bar metaphor, your success at getting laid at the end of the night doesn’t usually depend on the success of the other random people. You’re responsible for your own success and if you get crushed all night it’s your own fault, but in DB if you get stomped, that can be imbued to your random allies being performing on a sub par level to the opponent team. Going back to your metaphor, you would have to be a group of people convincing another group of people. At this point it starts mattering how your peers are performing, because it reflects on your reward and on how the night will go for you…

(Amerika) #17

@Lumi

Sadly, despite many years of basketball experience, I am still not in the NBA or better than NBA rookies. I wish I lived in your world where this could be true.

That’s the point of the ELO system. When you get people on a server who are rather close in range in regards to skill it works swimmingly in sorting things out to make things even. It ignores things like account level and uses an actual skill rating (no clue how good it is though since I don’t have those details). However, since this is a public server and skill ranges can be pretty vastly different, things can sometimes not work out in a player’s favor. I’ve written about this multiple times so I’m not sure what your point is and why you keep bringing up account levels. Some servers simply can’t be balanced to have a fair challenge on both sides. It’s just not possible sometimes.

Judging skill based on account level might be pretty accurate during the first few days or weeks of play. But it’s not accurate in the long term. People will start getting penalized simply because they have a high level but not a high skill rating. Or do you disagree with this?

Also, you might want to look up what biased actually means before using it. I’ve been extremely detailed as to how I have come to my viewpoint and provided what I believe to be potential solutions. What exactly is your solution that somehow fixes skill imbalances on public servers?

(3N1GM4) #18

Why is this discussion even happening?

Smooth said himself that the current ELO system and pub rank system is getting reworked.

They are aware of the unevenness of matches in both settings, and are working to address it.

I personally despise the w/l only ELO as it makes absolutely no sense in a random team setting. In a set 5v5 team league where the teams are static it would be fine. But even if you 5 stack with friends only, your team changes, the team dynamic changes and some/most times not everyone is the same skill every time.

That would be equivalent in evaluating all athletes based on their teams performance and ranking them accordingly. What happens to the all star on a crap team? He’d be ranked like a crap player, but he’s not. We don’t do that, we have established pertinent statistics that correlate to an individuals performance IN a team setting. Just like DB has, game mode xp, combat xp, support xp, accuracy, weapons used, K/D, revives, etc. Whats the point of tracking all of these PERFORMANCE metrics if they are not being used to determine ones potential… performance (rank)

(MarsRover) #19

The only sensible thing to do outside of a full-blown MM system is delaying team assignment to the last possible moment (just before the mission briefing) and making some sort of auto-balancing system when one team is short by 2 or more that is as non-invasive as possible. This of course won’t make every game even but that’s the way SD chosen for servers and we’re stuck with it, at least for now.

People asking for balancing done by level only are so out of touch with logic and reality that I just cannot comprehend them. Stating anything like that disqualifies you from any productive discussion about balance.

(Amerika) #20

@lumi I was waiting for that passive-aggressive dislike. Not a disagree of course but a dislike.