Everybody read this.

(Fap Fap Master) #1

http://steamcommunity.com/app/333930/discussions/0/541906989394070879/#p1
Perfectly expressed. It’s so sad to see a game get destroyed by noobs. You have to seriously think about your targeted audience… Noobs or Pros? This game is competitive right?..

(Ghosthree3) #2

Yep pretty much. I don’t really think the majority of complaining about balance should be taken seriously by the developers. They should look to key members of the community, specifically those in the best teams, for feedback. Not to say suggestions by nobodies shouldn’t be read, just that they should be taken with a grain of salt unless it’s absolutely 100% obvious or is backed by several top tier players.

Because let’s be honest, 99% of people literally don’t understand what they’re talking about and how deep the changes they request go.

(titaniumCrouton) #3

Agreed. I’ve said it here I believe and for sure in game, the devs are idiots if they’re listening to anyone outside of the “Pro scene” or whoever would be considered top tier at the moment, for balance advice and even then it should be taken with a grain of salt.

Players, despite there all knowing dillussions are provable idiots when it comes to balance (me included, no exceptions.) I really, really hope they take a lesson from this and don’t use the “reddit balance” method anymore. Now, I’m not saying they shouldn’t listen to suggestions. I.e if everyone is crying for nerfs, take a long hard look at something to see why it might be that way or if there being idiots.

Because it’s a 50/50 toss up. They might actually have to nerf something or the players might just be stupid at the moment…it happens. I just don’t want there developing style be relient on these knee jerk reactions because it WILL ruin a game like dirty bomb and considering how new the game is and how (comparably) small the audience is…it only takes one or two terrible patchs to destroy the player base to which rebuilding would take a lot of effort.

And yes, I know I sound like a jerk/asshole a lot of the times but it’s only because I care for and adore this game and the last thing I want to see is it to be ruined because of crying. Besides, surgar coating doesn’t work on the internet o_o

(Fap Fap Master) #4

They didn’t even patch the fletcher issues. I am having stickies disappearing from people, this is bad to the core of the game.

(GhostEntity) #5

While I agree that this can (and does happen), DB is still quite new and has some very powerful built in data capturing tools. We might be spared… time will tell.

(glamorousSapling) #6

Agreed. This is a fun game, I’d hate to see it run a super short lifespan 'cause of bad balance changes. Personally I’m happy that Phantom got nerfed into the ground, but not because I thought he was imba or anything. I just didn’t like the character. Still though, I never would’ve asked for a nerf.

The simple fact of the matter is that a lot of people that cry about balance one way or another don’t really have any idea what they’re talking about - because they’re not thinking of the big picture. I really think titaniumcrouton nailed it.

That being said, the game IS still in beta. That’s a pretty flimsy defense, sure, but it does mean that the devs have some time to iron out the issues. Hopefully they don’t listen to random scrub #12532346 that just signed up last week (IE Me, or someone like me) when it comes to changes.

(OmaGretel) #7

I think they have done a pretty good job so far. Comparing them to DICE, just because they nerfed Phantom is kind of exaggerated, imo.

(Ghosthree3) #8

The post was about the slippery slope.

(Halosheep) #9

This was a good read but I am happy that they addressed Phantom. Perhaps he is too weak now, or perhaps people just don’t know how to play him yet without being invincible to everything… or maybe a combo of the two. I had gotten to the point that I knew how to deal with phantoms but was still heavily annoyed by his presence, it made casual games a snoozefest because you’d just get oneshot to an unkillable merc, ruining the fun and flow of the game.
I doubt I’m the best choice for balancing, I’m only a Gold 3, but I do know what I find fun, and what I definitely don’t. Phantom wasn’t fun, Phantom was annoying. He can still be effectively used if you choose to learn how to use him, and will be more-so if they decide to make him invisible again.
Before anyone tries to imply otherwise, I did play before Phantom was rereleased, so I could easily compare my experiences before and after.

(glamorousSapling) #10

the issue wasn’t that they brought phantom down, it’s that they listened to a pub community versus their high level competitive players.

(Fap Fap Master) #11

[quote=“extraordinaryLoan;52959”]This was a good read but I am happy that they addressed Phantom. Perhaps he is too weak now, or perhaps people just don’t know how to play him yet without being invincible to everything… or maybe a combo of the two. I had gotten to the point that I knew how to deal with phantoms but was still heavily annoyed by his presence, it made casual games a snoozefest because you’d just get oneshot to an unkillable merc, ruining the fun and flow of the game.
I doubt I’m the best choice for balancing, I’m only a Gold 3, but I do know what I find fun, and what I definitely don’t. Phantom wasn’t fun, Phantom was annoying. He can still be effectively used if you choose to learn how to use him, and will be more-so if they decide to make him invisible again.
Before anyone tries to imply otherwise, I did play before Phantom was rereleased, so I could easily compare my experiences before and after.[/quote]

You have to understand that your skill lvl and their skill lvl is a factor, the phantom player could have been really good or u may have been really noob at the game. I had no trouble dealing with phantoms, its so easy to hear them and build distance before u can melee them, you can even see them if they run around. Now phantoms are nerfed to the ground, Phantoms are absolutely useless now, the only thing good about phantom is his ability to camp corners and wait for a kill.

(RuleofBooKz) #12

id add to the above that taking advice on how to develop the game from people on a forum where u can sign up multiple times and so get multiple “votes” has potential for abuse

(Halosheep) #13

[quote=“Fap Fap Master;52962”][quote=“extraordinaryLoan;52959”]This was a good read but I am happy that they addressed Phantom. Perhaps he is too weak now, or perhaps people just don’t know how to play him yet without being invincible to everything… or maybe a combo of the two. I had gotten to the point that I knew how to deal with phantoms but was still heavily annoyed by his presence, it made casual games a snoozefest because you’d just get oneshot to an unkillable merc, ruining the fun and flow of the game.
I doubt I’m the best choice for balancing, I’m only a Gold 3, but I do know what I find fun, and what I definitely don’t. Phantom wasn’t fun, Phantom was annoying. He can still be effectively used if you choose to learn how to use him, and will be more-so if they decide to make him invisible again.
Before anyone tries to imply otherwise, I did play before Phantom was rereleased, so I could easily compare my experiences before and after.[/quote]

You have to understand that your skill lvl and their skill lvl is a factor, the phantom player could have been really good or u may have been really noob at the game. I had no trouble dealing with phantoms, its so easy to hear them and build distance before u can melee them, you can even see them if they run around. Now phantoms are nerfed to the ground, Phantoms are absolutely useless now, the only thing good about phantom is his ability to camp corners and wait for a kill.[/quote]

I’m a pretty decent player, I usually top the scoreboard and can out-shoot most opponents. I just happen to like playing the squishy characters (Kira, Sparks/Aura, Proxy is my usual lineup). Even against awful players there were times I could be absolutely ready, know that they were there and STILL die because, despite the 12 bullets I just put into his face, his one slice killed me and his armor had only just broken. Good Phantoms were just absolutely brutal.
I just don’t think Phantom was ever intended to be a bullet sponge of death, he was likely meant to be played like a stealth character. Sneaking behind enemy lines to end some players camping in good spots, or for some quick strikes and getaways. He wasn’t that, he was basically just a berserker that was hard to see.
I had a guy use him as he’s supposed to be in a game today, and it worked really well. We had put up a nice aura/kira camp and were staking out a hallway, then Phantom snuck up behind us and ended it real quick. We were not prepared whatsoever.
I do agree though, he’s been nerfed too far and is rather useless. Perhaps if they put his visibility back to what it was so he can actually sneak around, he may find a good place in the game.

(Badger_Commander) #14

They listened to players, dividing a community and outright stating that some are worth listening to and others ignoring is rather unpleasant.

(Ghosthree3) #15

I hope people like you are never in charge of anything important. That’s a big problem with the modern world, pretending everyone is equal when they’re not. The fact is that some people are worth listening to far more than others. If we treat everyone’s opinion as equal everything we touch is going to burn eventually.

The problem is if we keep pandering to casuals and making changes that suit them they’ll never ever learn. They’ll just have this game killed then move to their next victim game and do the same thing. If we put our foot down and say no, you’re wrong and you’re bad you have to get better they might actually do so, saving this game and many other games in the future.

#stopthecycle

(Fap Fap Master) #16

You have to accept the fact that everyone is different. In a workplace it is smarter to take advice from someone who has worked there for ages then someone who has just recently started.

(Badger_Commander) #17

Perhaps but it’s still worth asking someone that recently started. It’s always worth getting a variety of opinions and perspectives on a subject, just because someone has more experience it doesn’t mean that they’re necessarily going to have the right answer.

(OmaGretel) #18

I still don’t get the point of this discussion. You are saying that the forums are a bad place to look for advice as a developer, but at the same time you are discussing how the game designers should do their job.
I don’t think player feedback plays as much of an important role in game balancing as most forum users hope/believe. It does play a role, but there are many other important aspects to consider and every half decent game designer knows that.

(Badger_Commander) #19

I hope people like you are never in charge of anything important.[/quote]

Ditto :slight_smile:

(Ghosthree3) #20

Glad we agree then.