Everybody read this.

(Fap Fap Master) #21

You have to understand that this is going to be a competitive game, how do you make a competitive game around noobs?

(Sussepus) #22

anyone considering themselves a pro shouldnt whine about changes devs do. if you are a pro you certainly can adapt to the new situation and still do good. this is also something i see most good players do. they dont post here on forum, they adapt, overcome and still top the score boards.

now, i dont agree with the changes they made to phantom but its kind of hypocrite to talk about newbies whining when all you do yourself is whine.

A game needs players to survive. Players means more than just the self proclaimed elitists calling themselves pros. it means reaching out to the masses. without the masses the devs have less income, without income the so called pros have no game.

(Eox) #23

All I read in that thread is yet another user war. Pro-Phantom users insulting Anti-Phantom users and vice versa. This disgusts me. it has no feedback value. It’s just provocations. Insulting a player group won’t change anything.

There just no or few constructiveness involved. The goal is to slander the opposite group as much as possible, dev bashing optionnally. Intolerance is the master word. People just assume that persons that disagree with them are noobs. How can you make a good feedback around that ?

The problem is not that “Splash Damage listened to bad players”. The problem is intolerant players, that calls you a scrub because you do not share their opinion. People are free to have their own opinions and shouldn’t be insulted for it.

All I see in the thread you shared is yet another bad mouthed player trashtalking a group of players. It’s saddening that so much of you are agreeing with him. I am against the most recent Phantom changes too, but I do not support that kind of thread. This is just downright being toxic.

(Fap Fap Master) #24

[quote=“Eox;53032”]All I read in that thread is yet another user war. Pro-Phantom users insulting Anti-Phantom users and vice versa. This disgusts me. it has no feedback value. It’s just provocations. Insulting a player group won’t change anything.

There just no or few constructiveness involved. The goal is to slander the opposite group as much as possible, dev bashing optionnally. Intolerance is the master word. People just assume that persons that disagree with them are noobs. How can you make a good feedback around that ?

The problem is not that “Splash Damage listened to bad players”. The problem is intolerant players, that calls you a scrub because you do not share their opinion. People are free to have their own opinions and shouldn’t be insulted for it.

All I see in the thread you shared is yet another bad mouthed player trashtalking a group of players. It’s saddening that so much of you are agreeing with him. I am against the most recent Phantom changes too, but I do not support that kind of thread. This is just downright being toxic.[/quote]

I never meant to insult the other player base, if questioning their skills is insulting, then i don’t know what to say no more.

All I’m saying is that the devs need to look at their targeted audience.
Rescope who they look at.

(Frogteam) #25

I honestly trust Splash Damage and Co to rely on in-game data more than forum response where it matters. I’m sure they listen to what’s said on the forum and all that, but back when lots of people were complaining about the Dreiss being weak and too hard to use, they still continued to bring down its stats slightly for a couple patches. Since then I don’t believe it has received any buffs, but most people have come to agree that it’s a pretty good gun.

Point is, they have reasons for what they do beyond what the forums shout about, hopefully they’ll continue to use their system for balance, and use us for quality of life changes and bug fixing.

Of course if I’ve missed some crucial detail in the Dreiss story, someone please correct me :blush:

(Eox) #26

[quote=“Fap Fap Master;53038”][quote=“Eox;53032”]All I read in that thread is yet another user war. Pro-Phantom users insulting Anti-Phantom users and vice versa. This disgusts me. it has no feedback value. It’s just provocations. Insulting a player group won’t change anything.

There just no or few constructiveness involved. The goal is to slander the opposite group as much as possible, dev bashing optionnally. Intolerance is the master word. People just assume that persons that disagree with them are noobs. How can you make a good feedback around that ?

The problem is not that “Splash Damage listened to bad players”. The problem is intolerant players, that calls you a scrub because you do not share their opinion. People are free to have their own opinions and shouldn’t be insulted for it.

All I see in the thread you shared is yet another bad mouthed player trashtalking a group of players. It’s saddening that so much of you are agreeing with him. I am against the most recent Phantom changes too, but I do not support that kind of thread. This is just downright being toxic.[/quote]

I never meant to insult the other player base, if questioning their skills is insulting, then i don’t know what to say no more.

All I’m saying is that the devs need to look at their targeted audience.
Rescope who they look at.[/quote]

You are more or less okay, don’t worry. The guy who made the thread you shared however is far from being clean in my opinion.

I am a community moderator in the official Warframe forums (ever heard of D20 ?). I oftenly have to monitor the feedback section of the Warframe forums. If there’s anything I know well, it’s that personnal attacks does not make a good feedback, and just spread a bad ambiance. You are free to question yourself on someone’s abilities in game of course. No one can prevent you to do it. Yet, you should never mention it as an argument. This is like a personnal attack : this is just not constructive, and be sure it’ll derail the thread if the other user answer back.

What I am trying to explain, is that any opinion should be respected and defended without using another player or group as a scrapegoat. Being tolerant, this is the masterword.

(Ghosthree3) #27

Which is kind of funny because that post was never actually about Phantom.

(Eox) #28

Which is kind of funny because that post was never actually about Phantom.[/quote]

Quoting the shared thread :

“Phantom is released, player flock to him, bad players discard or diregard him and go back to Skyhammer/Aura while pro players get the swing of him, scrubs get rekt as usual, complain on forums, ultra super mega nerf that makes him useless. I’m not saying he didn’t need a tweek (I though his armor could have been louder and the katana range fixed), but this is a little too far. Not to mention the melee nerf really takes away the quick finishing aspect of things and messes up the flow of the game, not that a scrub would care as he would just waste primary ammo finishing enemies instead of using the knife for a quick finish.”

6th paragraph. I positive it was mainly made due to the most recent Phantom nerfs.

(Ghosthree3) #29

Phantom is the example used as the start of the slippery slope OP is talking about. It could have been anything, but this is what OP considers the beginning.

The post isn’t complaining that Phantom was nerfed into the ground, it’s complaining about why and trying to warn the developers to stop while they’re ahead.

(B_Montiel) #30

Well, to me there’s an essential question at the center of the nerf. They maybe want to work on things more important than balancing things. Phantom was outright OP before its nerf. He did not require skill, his ability gives him good reliable of kill but was available way too often. I won’t discuss this part any further. Before the patch, I’ve seen too many people totally clueless of the games’s melee system pulling twice the score of the second player in their team, and this is enough evidence for me.

From a developer point of view, I think they preferred to give him a strong nerf hammer instead of leaving him as blatant overpowered thing in the game for possibly long period of time. If they have other plans than balancing mercs in the upcoming patches, that’s better for the overall quality of the game to have him in a below average state. Don’t forget that it is still work in progress and he will probably have its room back in the efficient assassin hall of fame one day.

They have not been alone doing this. If you ever played league of legends back when they were releasing 2 champions per months, it often happened. Xin Zhao, Jarvan, Lux, Lee Sin were some OP champ at their release who received strong nerf hammer on their head before shining again.

(stealthyCaper) #31

I seriously don not understand people claiming to have ‘pro’ insights but seem not to understand the word ‘beta’. Issues in beta need to be addressed and changed, and if they are not changed correctly, changed again.

What SD base their decisions for changes on, is pure forum conjecture. Considering they gather statistics about the game, there probably is more basis than just ‘listening to the whiners’.

People thinking classes that have just been released into beta are perfect from the get-go, and shouldn’t be changed because ‘they can handle it’ or any other form of anecdotal evidence are deluding themselves.

Where gathering statistics, heatmaps and replays is more scientific than anecdotes, how to fix issues is a lot hazier. Interplay between systems and players is very complex, and sometimes it IS a matter of trying to see what sticks because there is no way all outcomes can be predicted. If it could, there would be no need for beta.

As for balancing a game toward the smallest subset of players or the biggest common denominator: if a company needs to make money from a product, the answer is self-explanatory.

(Ghosthree3) #32

Release Xin Zhao was the most OP thing to ever exist in that game.

There’s no problem with big changes happening in a beta. That’s not what the post was about. The post was about letting the wrong people make those decisions.

(elegantRoyalty) #33

[quote=“Ghosthree3;52919”]Yep pretty much. I don’t really think the majority of complaining about balance should be taken seriously by the developers. They should look to key members of the community, specifically those in the best teams, for feedback. Not to say suggestions by nobodies shouldn’t be read, just that they should be taken with a grain of salt unless it’s absolutely 100% obvious or is backed by several top tier players.

Because let’s be honest, 99% of people literally don’t understand what they’re talking about and how deep the changes they request go.[/quote]

Games need to be balanced across all skill levels though the top tier pro’s are probably the smallest and so possibly the most irrelevant demographic, sure they have a deeper some would say better understanding but why people insist on a genetic gift of reflexes and hand eye co-ordination also gives mental capacity is beyond me.

no serious games devs look at just what the pros say and dont just listen to the noobs , you have to take a balanced look across the spectrum .

of course you have to discount where the noobs are just plain wrong because they dont understand how something works. but likewise you cant balance a game against something only the top 10 people can do either.

Take a look at SC2 , undeniably the best RTS about, over a decade of competitive pedigree and experience aimed a bit too high at the pro level and its been shrinking because its dieng from the grass roots up its simply too hard on noobs its not getting new blood in. there desperately trying to back peddle and make it more noob friendly with the new archon mode.

this games target audience has to be people that enjoy FPS you cant aim for the competitive market it doesnt work. you can of course do your best to make it comp friendly but you have to make it good for the noobs to or your DOA.

(B_Montiel) #34

[quote=“elegantRoyalty;53070”][quote=“Ghosthree3;52919”]Yep pretty much. I don’t really think the majority of complaining about balance should be taken seriously by the developers. They should look to key members of the community, specifically those in the best teams, for feedback. Not to say suggestions by nobodies shouldn’t be read, just that they should be taken with a grain of salt unless it’s absolutely 100% obvious or is backed by several top tier players.

Because let’s be honest, 99% of people literally don’t understand what they’re talking about and how deep the changes they request go.[/quote]

Games need to be balanced across all skill levels though the top tier pro’s are probably the smallest and so possibly the most irrelevant demographic, sure they have a deeper some would say better understanding but why people insist on a genetic gift of reflexes and hand eye co-ordination also gives mental capacity is beyond me.

no serious games devs look at just what the pros say and dont just listen to the noobs , you have to take a balanced look across the spectrum .

of course you have to discount where the noobs are just plain wrong because they dont understand how something works. but likewise you cant balance a game against something only the top 10 people can do either.

Take a look at SC2 , undeniably the best RTS about, over a decade of competitive pedigree and experience aimed a bit too high at the pro level and its been shrinking because its dieng from the grass roots up its simply too hard on noobs its not getting new blood in. there desperately trying to back peddle and make it more noob friendly with the new archon mode.

this games target audience has to be people that enjoy FPS you cant aim for the competitive market it doesnt work. you can of course do your best to make it comp friendly but you have to make it good for the noobs to or your DOA.
[/quote]

This. And you are not mentioning ET:QW… Which was criticised for more or less the same reason.

(RuleofBooKz) #35

so many people have good points. To be fair its even possible to admire someones good point, how they made it and the logic they used to arrive at it, even when disagreeing with them.

Can we not see what an intelligent beast is this DB? uneducated outsiders to FPS might call the FPS genre just about dumb games for angry males. Look at the discussions we are having. Im seeing something different. The subtleties and the vast constellation of nuance opinion embedded in many threads just on this forum.

Regardless of the factions, or side of what ever discussion you fall on, we should all be pleased to be a part of an undertaking to create, once more, a FPS you can be proud of playing

To get down to it: this should be a game that requires real skill to excel at. Aspirational. It should be a place however that is open to new players so that they have the opportunity to become the next skilled player of the game.

Whats most important in that is the idea of balance. Balance is the one thing running thru all of these recent posts and threads.

How do we balance things? To whom and what do we set the scale to find center. What is skill exactly here? What should skill be seen as, judged as? etc etc

Thats all the hopeful. here is the cynicism: People can and will say what ever they can to get what they want. Noobs will do it. Scrubs will do it. Newbies and yes even the “pro’s”. You can put, whatever, into a forum post.

Due to that It takes time to get a real idea of people and their motives. flowery words. cool words. “im a badarse” words etc etc. just words - the game is the game and its how u play the game, not the words, that matter.

keep central that the game needs to be balanced and about skill and we wont steer too far off course as we go

(PurpleNurple) #36

The thing about the beta argument is these days most people think Alpha=Beta and Beta=Live. They should just get rid of beta and put DEVELOPMENT IN PROGRESS! BALANCING AND TWEAKS WILL BE MADE REGULARLY. SPEND CURRENCY AT OWN RISK like steam does for early access games. They flat out warn us that any money we spend on an unpolished game(early access) comes with a risk. I mean a perfect example is Stomping Lands. That shit pulled a houdini on us.

Everyone is flipping out over patch notes. We are testers. They put content in for us and we give them feedback that’s the real reason it’s still called a beta whether it’s something for them to hide behind or not we fully acknowledged that we are playing a game they think deserves a beta title. I played a game with a corrupt company for 5 years (APB) and they have no communication with their players at all so I feel spoiled when staff members on here address our concerns instead of letting us argue with eachother constantly until we get bored of it while the other company kicks back waiting to pull their next scam. SD made a mistake with the melee changes and they acknowledged it. Chill out dudes. Tweaks are coming.

(Ghosthree3) #37

This level of play is what games should be balanced around because it’s what the players should aspire to be. It’s not even close to impossible for people to become good enough that they can play the game the same way pros do, pros just do it better.

(Conqelson) #38

Scrubs, casuals, bad players… also known as the people that pay for these games, lol. The “hardcore” is the minority, I’m sorry to say it but that’s true.

(RuleofBooKz) #39

as long as “its just beta” doesnt become just the useful stop gap excuse as to why everything is bad, and nothing is getting fixed. im with you

this games target audience has to be people that enjoy FPS you cant aim for the competitive market it doesnt work. you can of course do your best to make it comp friendly but you have to make it good for the noobs to or your DOA.

comp people play to enjoy and have fun with the game too

noob is no skill idiots who cant learn cause they are not aware they need to learn and so. after some time. become scrubs who do shit things and play like shit taking usually attempting to get their kills by advantage of game mechanics (like say using op mercs) rather than acquiring real skill at say developing good footwork, map knowledge, and SHOOTING AND AIMING IN A FPS

i think u were wanting newbies - new to the game players who are just learning, want to learn, and thus might one day become pro’s

and it is way way too late to be having the “we need to make the game for newbies too”. Those discussions have left the building like well over a year ago.

u dont make pub games 6v6 (or even 8v8) and expect it to be ok for newbies. you make pub servers 20v20. Why? cause on a 20v20 u can have those few newbies off just looking at the map or messing around learning about what a gun does if u fire it at a wall - for the whole game. You ca nhave em and still keep the game balanced. In a 6v6 if u have players doing that we know what happens - many many angry threads on forums about “how to fix quote unquote spawn camping”

game is set up for comp - time to accept it

(Ghosthree3) #40

That doesn’t make them wrong. There are so many games out there pandering to the majority. Go fuck off to one of those.