ET: Mapping contest 2004

(GF.AceAlive) #21

I think that this COntest for new ET maps is a great thing.

The situation is as follows : Only 3 or 4 of the normal ET maps are suitable for Clanwars at the Moment.
(Radar, Oasis, Railgun, and maybe also Goldrush)
Most maps are too long in their time for a War or their balancing is towards the defenders like it is on fueldump. (a nice map on a public server but unplayable in a war as every low-class team can defend it for the whole 30 minutes if they are not completely stupid)
This is way too few maps for the competitive scene.

Clearly this mapping contest is not for Mappers that want to create Maps for Public Servers with many players but only for the Clan-Scene.

Quite a number of Custom ET maps have been released so far but to be honest most of them are completely uselss for Clanwars.
Only “nachteinbruch” is good and “caen_beta” has some good points.
Alle the rest may be nice for Campaigns or huge Public-Server with noobs but that`s it.

It tooks very long in RTCW until some maps were released that were competitive and they also were released as “te” versions then (ufo, frostbite, tundra…). But it was kind of too late to have an impact on the competitive scene in RTCW.

Now with ET it`s different as the Scene is young and Organisations, Leagues and Clans are desperately searching for maps for the Clan-Scene.

I have tested most RTCW Custom Maps and maybe all Custom ET maps so far but it seems that only a very small number of Mappers have ever understood that The difference between a Clan-War and a Public-Match is not only big it´s like playing a completely different game. Many Clanplayers I know NEVER enter a public server, since this is just not the kind of playing they like. Its a different world, believe me especially when you are at least middle-skilled and play in a good clan. This is no insult to Public-Gamers i just want to show the difference here. Also when I say "noob" I don´t wanna insult anybody, I use this word generally for all "non-clan-players". Its fine to just play public on every friday evening or whatever, just it has abolutley nothing in common with playing a Game in a good Clan and attending tournaments and Leagues and such.

I would be very very pleased if some Mappers could use this contest to create maps for clanwars, cause this is what the ET Scene needs desperately.
Maybe also some Clanplayers start mapping, who knows.

Btw : League-Organisations like www.et-cup.de or www.clanbase.com will surely be very happy to give feedback to any mapper that wants to release a beta of a clanwar-map, be it in this contest or not in this contest.
tawnos from clanbase and wanderer from the t-cup are very open minded when it comes to such things.
Also Clans will surely be pleased to test a beta map and give feedback if it´s suitable for competitive play. I know that our clan (www.game-foundation.com) would surely do an claninternal test with beta maps (if they are promising) and give feedback and I don´t think we´re alone in this. (If any mapper wants us to do so, just write a mail to me, or query me in quakenet #game-foundation or whatever . but only for maps that are seriously inteded for clanwars)

Summary :
Public ET Games (propably even campaign mode) and Clanwars are like 2 completely different Games and this contest is for the Clanwar-Scene.
Help the competive ET Scene to stay alive and prosper and create great maps !
We`d love to see that happen, believe me :slight_smile:

(system) #22

Ok, but consider that most mappers are busy with mapping and not in a clan.

Maybe it would be a good thing if you clan-guys tell us what exactly have to be in a clan-map.
I will start with some sugesstions. :wink:

  • Each side should have the same distance to choke-points.
  • a chokepoint should not have only one route in and out. and if you have cover there should be another way for the other team to get behind the cover.
  • at least three routes to the main objective (maybe two main, one small?)
  • some vertical action (maybe walls where you can walk on and shot to the lower level
  • the need for special classes or advantages for the team witch uses clases for tactics. (teamdoors).
  • not a huge epic map where you need at least 8min to go into the first action. :wink:
  • make sure to clip your level. (like pipes on the ground or walls).
    Stafejumping people hate to get stuck at walls. especially if they loose their round because of that. :smiley:
  • consider your layout to optimice it for fps and vis-blocking right before you start mapping. it can be very frustrating if you need to delete parts of your level.
    Maybe it helps a bit. But i’m in no clan. in my opinion the urban terror mod for q3 have some good map-layouts to look at.
(GF.AceAlive) #23

those are good ideas :slight_smile:

  • what is also important is that a map must favor the attackers, so that a time is set even if the attackers are maybe not as good as the defenders.
    THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT ! a map that is mostly held full time is a waste as a match is played but no score is set. there`s no sense in playing 2 hours and the score is 0:0 or something. Make ET playable at LAN ! make the maps short, nobody has time on a LAN to play 2 hour matches.

  • favor the attackers also with supply stations. a supply with ammo and health directly at an objective that must be defended is a joke, it`s too easy for the defense.

  • the spawnpoints should have several exits to give the team a chance to not get fragged directly by a PF :stuck_out_tongue:
    I have recently checked a map called greece_beta and its complete rubbish due to the fact that you can as a defender aim from above (!!!) directly into the attackers spawn, what a nightmare. make sure the spawns are protected. Clans have no moral issues with spawnraping it´s a normal tactic, so make sure it´s not so damned easy !

  • please not so much floor for mines. oasis with all the sand and tons of mines is really frustrating sometimes :slight_smile:

  • take very good care of the respawntimes ! if the defenders spawn is close to the last objectives and the attackers spawn is further away from it (as it usually is) a larger spawn-intervall for the defenders is a good idea.
    Short Spawntimes are a good way to make map quicker. I played nachteinbrch with its 10 seconds spawntime for the attackers and it`s good. longer for defenders as is said before.

  • in ET its very easy to kill at distance because the weapons are very accurate. dont inlcude too much open field without cover in the map or the attackers are easily shot, much more easily then in rtcw for example.
    if you include sniper-points (no need to do so, nobody misses snipers much) make sure theres only few or one point so that snipers are discoverd fast and not after 20 minutes or such.

  • maps schould have 2 possibilities to reach or complete the objectives. like in radar : you can destroy the side entrance and the maingate but you can also get through with only destroying one of them.

  • creating forward spawns for attackers is always a good thing, like a flag that must be taken or a command post that is built up and becomes a spawnpoint.

  • avoid places where a defense can camp themselves in completely with the whole team. in ET its easy to gib a player so that he won´t be revived like it was possible in rtcw. This means that a attackers rush is stopped more easily than in rtcw. consider this in you map ! make sure the defenders must also show their asses and not being able to cover themselves completely and hide. For example : an attacker is shot and now he`s laying in open field so that he can be gibbed ! A defender is shot and laying behind his cover so that he can be easily revived as he cannot even be seen by attackers. Not so good all the time ! You get the idea ?

  • tanks are a great thing but make sure they don`t have to drive for hours until they finally get somewhere ! make them drive a lil faster than normal or make only a shorter way for a tank.

  • a normal defense tactic in ET is to use the /kill option so that for example you can throw many grenades and /kill and be back with full grenades and so on. The less spammy a map can be the better it is. Favor skill and teamplay to spam with airstrikes, panzers, mines and grenades and clans will love you.

  • covert ops are seldom used in wars, so make sure you consider this in your map, both for attackers and defenders.

  • FPS over eye-candy !
    Maps that have below 60 or 70 FPS at any point are buggy in my opinion. Believe me a normal player may not feel a diffrence with 25 or 30 FPS but for somebody with skill it´s horrible to have below 70 FPS !
    Forget eye candy, players will tune their graphics anyway. Check your map with r_fastsky 1 and r_picmip 3 and r_mapoverbrightbits 2 or 3 and if it looks good in this Graphic settings then its good. Nobody uses full detail graphics but we all love to have nice optics even with such settings. Theres no discussion here in this point. Just swallow your optical-mapper-pride. I love good graphics but i will never use full details in any match, winning is more important then having nice graphics.

If a map still looks good with reduced graphics thats cool we love you but we care about other things. for example : goldrush is wonderfull with low details still, while railgun is a nightmare. thats because the snow looks horrible with mapoverbrightbits 2 or 3 !
forget stuff like darkness and rain or snow, we will switch that stuff off anyway.
Check the allowed punkbuster settings from www.rtcw.no and run your ET with the “worst” details settings that are still allowed. Now you get an impression how 90% of the clanplayers play all the time !
get he point ?
These are my graphic settings and 90% have similar stuff :
pu those in a configfile and run it to get an impression how ET looks for clanplayers. Also notice what happens to stuff like the railroad in rail gun :wink:

seta r_subdivisions “999”
seta r_lodbias “1”
seta r_colorbits “0”
seta r_depthbits “0”
seta r_texturebits “0”
seta r_ext_compressed_textures “1”
seta r_dynamiclight “0”
seta r_fastSky “1”
seta r_inGameVideo “0”
seta r_texturemode GL_LINEAR_MIPMAP_NEAREST
seta r_detailtextures “0”
seta r_flares “0”
seta r_finish “0”
seta r_ignoreFastPath “0”
seta r_lodCurveError “0”
seta r_primitives “0”
seta r_swapInterval “0”
seta r_vertexLight “1”
seta r_overBrightBits “1”
seta r_gamma “1.7”
seta r_intensity “1.5”
seta r_mapoverbrightbits “2”
seta r_picmip “3”

seta r_fullbright “1”
seta r_displayRefresh 85
seta r_uifullscreen “0”
seta r_lodbias “2”
seta r_drawsun “0”
seta r_facePlaneCull “1”
seta r_lodcurveerror “100”
seta r_ext_texture_filter_anisotropic “0”
seta r_ext_compiled_vertex_array “1”
seta r_stencilbits “0”
seta r_ati_fsaa_samples “0”
seta r_ati_truform_tess “0”
//
seta ui_r_subdivisions “999”
seta ui_r_lodbias “1”
seta ui_r_colorbits “0”
seta ui_r_depthbits “0”
seta ui_r_picmip “0”
seta ui_r_mode “6”
seta ui_r_texturebits “0”
seta ui_r_ext_compressed_textures “1”
seta ui_r_dynamiclight “0”
seta ui_r_texturemode GL_LINEAR_MIPMAP_NEAREST
seta ui_r_detailtextures “0”
//
seta cg_atmosphericEffects “0”
seta cg_brassTime “0”
seta cg_hudAlpha “2.0”
seta cg_wolfparticles “1”
seta cg_gibs “1”
seta cg_shadows “0”
seta cg_marktime “100”
seta cg_coronafardist “0”
seta cg_coronas “0”
seta cg_showblood “1”
seta cg_bloodDamageBlend “0”
seta cg_bloodFlash “0”
seta cg_bloodTime “100”
seta cg_drawWeaponIconFlash “0”
seta cg_drawGun “0”
//

  • make sure that strafejumps and circlejumps are possible, it´s the best the Q3 engine offers, that you can use this movement.
    Like in goldrush when you strafe down the tank`s road.

  • make sure dynamite can only be pu where a single engeineer can defuse it, no player-pyramids or bullshit like that behind the oasis guns.

  • avoid places where a defense can camp themselves in completely with the whole team. In ET its easy to gib a player so that he won´t be revived like it was possible in rtcw. This means that a attackers rush is stopped more easily than in rtcw. Consider this in you map ! make sure the defnders must also show their asses and not being able to cover themselves completely and hide.

  • Attacking means that you have a wave of rushed towards the defending enemy usually. Make sure they way is not so long for the attackers. It`s wasted time to be running for 30 seconds to meet an enemy finally.

  • i will try to point out some BAD points in good maps to give some more hints :
    Goldrush : the room with the gold has only a little door. what you see in clanwars nowadays is 5 axis camping in the little room spamming grenades out the door and so on - it`s sometimes almost impossible to steal the gold. if you include such a room in you map with gold or documents please make sure it has at least 2 doors or such to get in.

Oasis : teams can easily make a Spammy defense with many mines due to sand being everywhere in all entrys. not so good in my opinion :slight_smile: make some ways where mines can not be put :slight_smile:

Fueldump : the axis are close to their objective allies very far away at spawn. but there are only little entries with snow (mines again) and when allies enter they must first destroy thos things around the fueldump which can take very long withou a surviving cover ops…bad idea…fueldump would be much better with a close allies spawn and without the fences around the fueldump :slight_smile:

If i have further ideas i will post them :wink:

P.S.: wtach the following Replays to get an impression how a clanmatch is played !
it´s one top-match of extremely skilled clans for every map.
to understand the good and the bad points of the available standard maps, watch those replays ! it´s only one map per replay it won`t take too long to watch the stuff :

Goldrush : mTw vs. SS Roistot
http://ingame.ingame.de/demobase/index.php?action=file&cid=73&fid=575

Siwa Oasis : Team-Helix vs. mTw
http://ingame.ingame.de/demobase/index.php?action=file&cid=69&fid=551

Würzburg Radar : GF.Base vs. gods.inc
http://ingame.ingame.de/demobase/index.php?action=file&cid=67&fid=533

Railgun : c4 vs. pod (fov)
http://ingame.ingame.de/demobase/index.php?action=file&cid=52&fid=379

Fueldump & Sewall Battery : the maps are so bad for clanwars I didn´t find good replays at all :stuck_out_tongue:

P.S.: Hopefully this was a helpful posting and not too offensive to the Mapping-Scene :slight_smile:

(heeen) #24

lol
on what, a gf1? gf2mx?

i guess such amazing 1337 player-gods are using radeon 9800pros anyways, so why mind the fps…

(GF.AceAlive) #25

lol
on what, a gf1? gf2mx?

i guess such amazing 1337 player-gods are using radeon 9800pros anyways, so why mind the fps…[/quote]

actually that`s not the case that is why FPS tuning is so important. I use a GeForce 3 for example. Being a clanplayer doesn´t mean to be rich and have money for radeon9800 or something.

(pack) #26

I agree with most what AceAlive/Fiesling are saying :slight_smile:

Your map has not to be butt-ugly btw :slight_smile: It’s eyecandy is not that important but I mean don’t do everything in grey bricks or so :). You really can still have a nice map without too much fpseating stuff (cfr goldrush).

Most difficult thing will be general design of your map. Since so few examples exist you really will need to be creative. ET has lots of weapons etc. , so this generates more problems than a map for RTCW.

Furthermore - really read AceAlives/Fieslingspost but don’t get scared by all what they are saying :slight_smile: Consider it as guidelines, just like the rules of the contest :slight_smile:

(pack) #27

lol
on what, a gf1? gf2mx?

i guess such amazing 1337 player-gods are using radeon 9800pros anyways, so why mind the fps…[/quote]

I’m just regular player, i’m certainly not a 1337 playergod and I really don’t have everywhere fps 70. (geforce 2 Mx / P4 1.5 ghz/ 512Mb ram). But I do play a war now and then, and for me most maps (except for the grass in radar) are playable.

However, mind that there are a lot of potential (even very good) players with even slower systems (you cannot imagine on what machines they are playing RTCW (P3 600 Mhz Voodoo etc.)).

Anyway, the more people that have a playable fps on your map the better. Don’t assume everyone has the-latest-of-the-latest on his desktop.

(Spark) #28

I think the most important points are flow and no-cheese. :slight_smile: Goldrush has a very good flow for example (you could argue that the tank drives a bit too slowly but I’d disagree, because the tank takes just about a minute to get from the first to the second barrier). Flow includes things like not getting stuck at walls or doorframes and not walking on straight paths for too long. :slight_smile: Also height differences and fluid jumps.
The bank defense from the inside could be considerd “cheese”, if it would be unbreakable or always the best tactic. I’m not convinced yet though, that this is really the case because this defense also gives the attackers a very good chance to kill you inside with explosives. I can only remember two high profile games, where this kind of defense was successfull and most clans seem to prefer defending on the outside (yet).
It also means that there should be no part of the map that doesn’t have a certain purpose. And you should know each and every possibility of the game (because you can be sure that competitive gamers do :)) and always assume the worst case scenario. For example “what happens, if they place all ten mines here?” or “what if they all camp at this place and spam this entry with a panzerfaust and artillery?” only this kind of thinking will allow you to make cheese-free maps. Never think “just play fair”. :slight_smile: Assume that players will try to abuse your map in every possible way and it will only stand a chance, if it withstands every kind of it.

(blushing_bride) #29

In all honesty it sounds like you guys would prefer to play in box rooms connected by box corridors if you got better FPS. If that’s what you would enjoy most im certain you could all knock together maps of your own in a matter of hours. I suspect most mappers enjoy making maps that look as good as they can make them while still running at a respectable rate (30-40fps) but asking for a minimum 60-70 fps on low end machines is asking too much. If this is the case then all the official maps are very buggy. The main point i gather from your post however is that you don’t seem to really like playing ET. It sounds like you want ET to be something different than what it is. Maybe i missunderstood.

(pack) #30

You make it sound like the only thing that is difficult about mapping is fancy your map up. It is not imo. Imo having a good (and original?)scenario, and a balanced map is at least as hard as fancy your map up. But that part is not visible on screenshots or first time reviews of a map.

So FPS isn’t everything Off course you can fancy your map (and I would encourage it), but never do it at the cost of too much fps. It’s a small but simple advice. I might emphasize it too much but that’s because I have experience with custom maps :slight_smile:

I more or less give advice, because in the end community will decide what maps will go through, not me :slight_smile:

(GF.AceAlive) #31

[quote=“blushing_bride”]

In all honesty it sounds like you guys would prefer to play in box rooms connected by box corridors if you got better FPS. If that’s what you would enjoy most im certain you could all knock together maps of your own in a matter of hours. I suspect most mappers enjoy making maps that look as good as they can make them while still running at a respectable rate (30-40fps) but asking for a minimum 60-70 fps on low end machines is asking too much. If this is the case then all the official maps are very buggy. The main point i gather from your post however is that you don’t seem to really like playing ET. It sounds like you want ET to be something different than what it is. Maybe i missunderstood.[/quote]

well we need to define what a low end PC is here. I have an Geforce 3 and an athlon TB 1400 and thats pretty low end nowadays. However I do have 60-70 FPS one many ET maps, except from oasis and radar. Remember that clanplayers play the maps with lowest alowed details and graphics. with normal settings i have at least 20 FPS less on the maps but who uses full details and high resolution, certainly not competitive players :) I know that mappers want to have beautiful maps this is exactly why this contest is made. In ET graphic-tuning is quite strict. If you saw how people play Q3 and used to play RTCW you almost cannot see this is RTCW anymore (lately the restrictions are more strict kind of though.) Really plan you graphic for people that play low details with 800x600 or less. It´s just fair to tell you in advance that this is the way it will be even if you dont like it. If you cannot live with that, then meaybe the mapping contest isn`t really your cup of tea.
Even though maps can be beautiful also with such graphics, at least some are more beautiful then others :stuck_out_tongue:

on the other hand a map that is played in comepetion gets terriffic attention and is played a hell of a lot, people train it, plan tactics for it, play wars and league matches and even watch countelss replay with clans plaing YOUR map…so if you wanna get attention for your map it`s your chance. If you want a beautiful map for public servers, this is not the right Map-Contest for you :slight_smile:

but dont get stuck with this Graphics stuff too much, gameplay and flow matters far more. As it was said before goldrush has a great flow. In RTCW, no map had a flow like base, it´s such an amazing and uplifting feeling to strafe those two maps, ah thats why we love to play :slight_smile:
we dont look at the walltextures too much were busy shooting and so on :slight_smile:

(pack) #32

if (if!) it would get in competition it would get in a lot of movies too. So it may not be ugly damnit ! :moo: (i’m not as radical as AceAlive I guess :slight_smile: )

Just have fps in mind when designing your map like you would design any map. It’s just in the rules to make clear that we will not judge a map because of it’s beauty, but mainly on gameplay. In RTCW Mp_beach and mp_base are rather poor maps compared to a lot of custom maps but they do offer very good gameplay.

Basically you will just have to listen to comments after a first beta is released.

(Spark) #33

Yeah after all competitive gaming isn’t JUST about winning, it’s also about style, so make damn sure that your map looks stylish on tape. :wink: The interesting thing however is, that poor performance usually isn’t caused by outstanding texturing or attention to detail, but by choosing a poor layout for the map or poor hinting.
Goldrush shows how much detail you can pack into a map, if you just keep the vis somewhat limited (which is a good idea for competitive maps anyway). Good performance is IMO a skill and part of general map quality, not a simple decision.
Also nobody is expecting from anyone that a map will run great on a Voodoo card, but it shouldn’t run worse than most of the retail maps IMO. Most competitive players try to get a machine that runs those maps well, so if your map doesn’t, expect those players to get pissy. :wink:

(blushing_bride) #34

cool what movies would it be in (crosses fingers for the next star wars film :banana: )

(pack) #35

cool what movies would it be in (crosses fingers for the next star wars film :banana: )[/quote]

lol :slight_smile:

it is trendy to make movies in RTCW (as in any other game I guess :))
You can check them out if you have broadband.

Well known are:
http://www.swertcw.com/default.php?c=download&p=comments&id=452
(500 Mb) Really cool special effects! (uses fretns edv :)) - 4K movie

http://www.swertcw.com/default.php?c=download&p=comments&id=165 (200 MB) Nice jumpz - apycalipse2

http://games.telenet.be/files.php?fileid=279
first RTCW movie ever- one of the best still imo (chinese! -beach) (80 Mb)

http://www.swertcw.com/default.php?c=download&p=comments&id=459
infensusmovie (300 Mb) jumps/frags

Fact is, to make this movie most of the time they will tweak everything to highest detail, and then you don’t wanna have an ugly map :slight_smile:
There are already ET movies 2, but no big projects yet I believe. Check Sickboys movies that I posted above here in this thread…
nyway - going way off topic here ^^

(DG) #36

btw just to add it should be fine to submit existing maps, or modifications of existing maps (as long as its yourown or with full permission of original author!). Tho for a popular map pack we need them to be completely bug free etc so if necessary it might end up needing some touch ups* for a re-release, though presumably there shouldnt be an issue with having two maps, version 2 or mc_ or something, aslong as they dont conflict if players have both (dunno how technically feasable this is).

  • even just e.g. some maps using custom icons (shaders?) in the compass get a minor compass bug when ETPro mod is used, e.g. sillyctf and i think resurrection, try moving around near the safe & boat respectively. Also removal of campaign files, some random bug maybe found in extensive playtesting or whatever…

with regard for prizes, none of us make any money whatsoever afaik (and hosting custom map files is 100% bandwidth expense), and i cant really think of any company that might be likely to give any sponsorship since nobody really has any oppertunity from making money from it even indirectly. mind sponsorship itself might require ads in the map itself, e.g. marketgarden, posters at allied spawn, and then there’s related complications in that some sites/mag cd’s might be unwilling to host downloads, servers or competitions on maps that advertise a competitor or sponsor’s competitor…

if you have ideas your more than welcome to post or maybe better PM/go to #etmaps and make suggestions. Have to admit I for one presumed the objectives would be appreciated on their own, since its surely only a good thing for the players and mapping communities, heavily encouraging custom maps into widespread use.

(RivrStyx) #37

Oh btw the way that thing with the icons in Etpro… like the raft being outside of the compass. Thats an ETpro bug and ETpro should fix that. Shrub or reg ET has that problem. Wonder what in etpro causes that…what was changed? You can’t really use a tank icon if its a raft. That sucked when i put etpro on our server and the raft was floating around outside the compass…lol

(pack) #38

:twak:

bump pimp

Any mappers working on something? :slight_smile:

(blushing_bride) #39

yes and its nearly ready

(kevinski) #40

In case nobody here’s played the beta of mp_forum, you should check it out at http://www.pcgamemods.com/2471/ to witness a map that rarely falls below 70-80 FPS on my 64MB GeForce2 MX 400. The only exceptions are areas containing special effects (that lightning effect used in a lot of lab maps) or foliage. In those cases, I get drops to around 40-50 FPS. As for maps with even more eye candy (mp_resurrection for RtCW), I get horrible FPS (although et_resurrection runs pretty well).

I look for two main things in a good map: 1) consistent FPS, and 2) a decent layout.

My favorite maps? Well, I’d hafta say mml_church and password2 hold that honor. They’re very well-designed maps.