Endless Levelling

[tokamak]

(snip)

That’s amazing. You’re making me feel inadequate.

[De_f_c]

Why does every shooter have to be about levels these days? Shooters are just supposed to be about improving your play and shooting people. Just because the game includes a levelling system doesnt mean it has to pander to the xp/level fetish that everyone seems to have.

[tokamak]

It adds a currency, a layer of resource management. Though by making the resource management persistent you detach it from a time constraint and thus ceases to be an actual part of of the game.

[Coolaguy]

Wolfnemesis75, you’ve completely missed the point…

<Insert Name of Game Here> didn’t have RPG levels or Experience Points and it was fine.
The above quote is an ignorant argument, and I’ve explained why. OF COURSE THAT GAME WAS FINE!!! It was predicated upon intrinsic motivation. You play the game for the fun of the game. It didn’t have the daliance of extrinsic motivation thrown in without due consideration to the void that occurs after all the extrinsic motivators have dried up.

I have X characters that I’m working on. I have Y Level 20’s, and blah blah blah

This argument doesn’t counter my point, either. I’m doing the same thing with my account. I have multiple characters myself. What will you do when you’ve maxed out your characters and tried all the combinations that you wanted to try? Will you keep playing your Level 20s characters?

Maybe you will. Maybe you are intrinsically motivated. In which case, good for you. However, others are more susceptible to the extrinsic motivators and have been plied to think of them as rewards… rewards that promptly disappear at Level 20 (Note: Abilities have been capped at 20 for a very clear game-balance reason).

The way the game was balanced, you should be playing your Level 20 characters, not losing interest in them, only to stomp noobs with your newly created Level 0 character. However, the ONLY in-game extrinsic rewards coincide with newly-created characters.

Brink is trying to be different in many relevant ways (i.e. SMART, teamwork XP-rewards, etc.), but the implementation of the XP-leveling system is an example of how Brink is trying to be the same (“me too”), and, moreover, getting it wrong.

[QUOTE=wolfnemesis75;323238]The level cap is to promote the creation of multiple characters.[/QUOTE] This is possibly an explanation for why the level cap was implemented, but this idea runs counter to actually playing the Level 20 character that you created in the first place.

The only way that people would create additional characters if Leveling was enabled past the Level Cap of 20, is if the penalties for Re-Spec’ing a single character were sufficiently extreme (past the Level Cap) to prevent them from easily experimenting via Re-Spec. I proposed that my 5-Level-Deduction scheme would be sufficiently harsh to achieve this goal.

Another possibility that I considered (but abandoned) for allowing Leveling past the Level Cap of 20 was that such Leveling was only enabled at the cost of completely denying the ability to Re-Spec that character any further. In this case, the denial of Re-Spec’ing would dictate that players create new characters should they wish to continue experimenting with Ability Point customization.

TL;DR
The issue isn’t that players shouldn’t be intrinsically motivated. They should be intrinsically motivated. The issue is that if you are going to introduce a system of extrinsic motivation, that it should have sufficient depth to compel players to further and continue their play experience. Brink’s extrinsic motivation system has fallen short of that goal.

---

EDIT:

[QUOTE=De|f|c;323266]Why does every shooter have to be about levels these days? Shooters are just supposed to be about improving your play and shooting people. Just because the game includes a levelling system doesnt mean it has to pander to the xp/level fetish that everyone seems to have.[/QUOTE]You’re right. They don’t have to be about leveling. Games were fun before these systems were in place. So why do games need them? The answer is that they don’t.

In some games, however, leveling is a useful means to introduce gameplay variations gradually. In such instances, those variations often seem like rewards, and the developers that introduce these gameplay variations are compelled to ensure that players continue to feel like they are being rewarded even after all of the new gameplay variations, themselves, have been exhausted.

The most common embodiment of this is:

<special sound effect> “Congratulations! You just gained an arbitrary level number!” <different colour text pops-up>

Surprisingly, as basic as this seems, it actually is the type of positive reinforcement that compels gamers. There is a sense of progression and accomplishment. You get addicted (b/c Variable Reward) to those little, subtle highs that you get when the game tells you that you are doing well.

<bullet killing sounds> “Kill +100 XP” <different colour text pops up>
<ping of headshot sound> “Kill +150 XP” <different colour text pops up>
<“BOOM! H-h-h-headshot!”>
<“Double kill! Tr-r-ripple kill! Overkill! Unst-t-t-oppable!”>

[Protector]

Why does every shooter have to be about levels these days? Shooters are just supposed to be about improving your play and shooting people. Just because the game includes a levelling system doesnt mean it has to pander to the xp/level fetish that everyone seems to have.

Shooters don’t have to be about levels but once you have them you convince people they need them, once that stops people feel they have gone as far as they can go.

[neg0ne]

it is soo boring.

sarcasm on The XP system is for kiddies only. sarcasm off
Best time ever was ET with no Stats at all. Eveybody just plaed for the fun of the actual game. Who needs to get assertivness or gratification out of XPs should maybe play another game, or better, get a real life ( just kidding).

The XP system is just a Way to drag people into the game and to learn everything needed to play it. Then you build your characters that focuses your personal style of playing the game and fits to your prefered role.
But thats not the end. This is where the game starts !!! … after the “Training-mode” of leveling up.

This game is ment to be palyed with LEV 20. And not as a RPG- WOW- Barbie-doll-dressing - game clon.

Eat that, have fun with it… or go and get another game.

neg0ne

[tokamak]

In ET xp was far more than status, far, far more.

[wolfnemesis75]

[QUOTE=Coolaguy;323298]Wolfnemesis75, you’ve completely missed the point…

The above quote is an ignorant argument, and I’ve explained why. OF COURSE THAT GAME WAS FINE!!! It was predicated upon intrinsic motivation. You play the game for the fun of the game. It didn’t have the daliance of extrinsic motivation thrown in without due consideration to the void that occurs after all the extrinsic motivators have dried up.

This argument doesn’t counter my point, either. I’m doing the same thing with my account. I have multiple characters myself. What will you do when you’ve maxed out your characters and tried all the combinations that you wanted to try? Will you keep playing your Level 20s characters?

Maybe you will. Maybe you are intrinsically motivated. In which case, good for you. However, others are more susceptible to the extrinsic motivators and have been plied to think of them as rewards… rewards that promptly disappear at Level 20 (Note: Abilities have been capped at 20 for a very clear game-balance reason).

The way the game was balanced, you should be playing your Level 20 characters, not losing interest in them, only to stomp noobs with your newly created Level 0 character. However, the ONLY in-game extrinsic rewards coincide with newly-created characters.

Brink is trying to be different in many relevant ways (i.e. SMART, teamwork XP-rewards, etc.), but the implementation of the XP-leveling system is an example of how Brink is trying to be the same (“me too”), and, moreover, getting it wrong.

This is possibly an explanation for why the level cap was implemented, but this idea runs counter to actually playing the Level 20 character that you created in the first place.

The only way that people would create additional characters if Leveling was enabled past the Level Cap of 20, is if the penalties for Re-Spec’ing a single character were sufficiently extreme (past the Level Cap) to prevent them from easily experimenting via Re-Spec. I proposed that my 5-Level-Deduction scheme would be sufficiently harsh to achieve this goal.

Another possibility that I considered (but abandoned) for allowing Leveling past the Level Cap of 20 was that such Leveling was only enabled at the cost of completely denying the ability to Re-Spec that character any further. In this case, the denial of Re-Spec’ing would dictate that players create new characters should they wish to continue experimenting with Ability Point customization.

TL;DR
The issue isn’t that players shouldn’t be intrinsically motivated. They should be intrinsically motivated. The issue is that if you are going to introduce a system of extrinsic motivation, that it should have sufficient depth to compel players to further and continue their play experience. Brink’s extrinsic motivation system has fallen short of that goal.

---

EDIT:
You’re right. They don’t have to be about leveling. Games were fun before these systems were in place. So why do games need them? The answer is that they don’t.

In some games, however, leveling is a useful means to introduce gameplay variations gradually. In such instances, those variations often seem like rewards, and the developers that introduce these gameplay variations are compelled to ensure that players continue to feel like they are being rewarded even after all of the new gameplay variations, themselves, have been exhausted.

The most common embodiment of this is:

<special sound effect> “Congratulations! You just gained an arbitrary level number!” <different colour text pops-up>

Surprisingly, as basic as this seems, it actually is the type of positive reinforcement that compels gamers. There is a sense of progression and accomplishment. You get addicted (b/c Variable Reward) to those little, subtle highs that you get when the game tells you that you are doing well.

<bullet killing sounds> “Kill +100 XP” <different colour text pops up>
<ping of headshot sound> “Kill +150 XP” <different colour text pops up>
<“BOOM! H-h-h-headshot!”>
<“Double kill! Tr-r-ripple kill! Overkill! Unst-t-t-oppable!”>[/QUOTE]

Your argument makes a strong case for why many games, including Gears of War 3 are implementing ranks. (I also think it is because of the popularity of Halo and COD). But, the ranks and leveling also ruins those games just as K/D as well. I like how Brink tries to focus on fun and teamwork, rather than the focus being on leveling, K/D ratio,Kill streaks,score, and exp.

Also, your post made me think of Vizzini from the Princess Bride!

Vizzini: But it’s so simple. All I have to do is divine from
what I know of you: are you the sort of man who
would put the poison into his own goblet or his
enemy’s? Now, a clever man would put the poison into
his own goblet, because he would know that only a
great fool would reach for what he was given. I am
not a great fool, so I can clearly not choose the
wine in front of you. But you must have known I was
not a great fool, you would have counted on it, so I
can clearly not choose the wine in front of me.

        :tongue:

[Overgear]

In Monday Night Combat there was a pointless levelling system. It did nothing but show how much money/time you had. Once you reached level 100 you went back to 0 and got a level 1 bot next to your level.
Reach level 100 again and you get a level 2 bot etc.
It’s a cool little incentive.

So I have to agree with others. You get to 20 and the experience doesnt even fill the bar to go to 20 again so you don’t get level up satisfaction. I still play my level 20 as I don’t really wanna play another character but I’d like to see level 20+

[wolfnemesis75]

Here’s an idea: Make 4 Class Specific Characters: A Medic, A Soldier, An Operative, and an Engineer. Level each one to 20. Now make 6 Characters that are Hybrids. Level them to 20. That’s ten characters that all have unique abilities and customization options. 20x10=200. That’s 200 levels.

When you play each Class Character, you have to approach each level differently and have a different set of abilities. This system is way better than using the same character and leveling/meaningless grinding for a meaningless symbol. Endless leveling…I still don’t think its worth having in the game if it takes away from the fun factor. Like I said early, Gears of War did not have ranks or an experience system and is still hands down one of the best gaming experiences I’ve ever had. If the game is fun and good, people will play it. Games that are the same recycled thing year in and out need grinding achievements to keep the sponsors, and perception that everyone plays THEIR game online. Gears of War 2 has an exp system where you rank up and its just set up to be a shallow grind that doesn’t enhance the game. I don’t like shallow level systems.

[Protector]

Dude we are aware of the fact we can level different characters up to level 20 in all different ways but that is not what the majority want to do, why get all the cool abilities and unlocks on one character just to move onto the next… We would be better off if we could work towards unlocking all the abilities for all classes with one character.

[wolfnemesis75]

Dude we are aware of the fact we can level different characters up to level 20 in all different ways but that is not what the majority want to do, why get all the cool abilities and unlocks on one character just to move onto the next… We would be better off if we could work towards unlocking all the abilities for all classes with one character.

Currently it is balanced. Class system and level cap is to keep the game team-focused. Basically what you want to do is be able to have a character who can do every class at a level 20 but that’d be counter to a team-focused game. I am just trying to point out that the set-up currently actually does what you want (leveling) just not with the same character. Other FPS games you are a non-descript everyman character where as Brink you not only play as two separate factions, but have unique customization options.

You can make 10 distinct characters in Brink with different body types even. Dig a little deeper and open your mind. Stop asking for the same-old same old stuff that’s been done to death in games like COD. Asking for endless leveling is similar to asking for TDM. Which Brink is trying to be its own game, not a clone of other games. Next people will want Gold Guns. Lame.

Not sure why you can’t just make multiple characters like I did, which accomplishes the same thing you are asking for in leveling. Even a level 1 character can compete in Brink in its current setup. Its balanced. The level cap is a well-thought out design decision. Or else there’d be no level cap.

[Codine]

I think they should kill the whole level system and just unlock everything for whatever class you play. This whole “build” thing does nothing to help the game. You need to be able to change your body type in game as well.

[wolfnemesis75]

I think they should kill the whole level system and just unlock everything for whatever class you play. This whole “build” thing does nothing to help the game. You need to be able to change your body type in game as well.

Again, the level system in Brink is mostly to get you to learn the different classes and be open to switching to learn how the team work accomplishes objectives, otherwise, many would just play a certain class (soldier) and the game would devolve online into nobody playing like a team. A level 20 character in Brink is a completed character in terms of leveling, but should be now you have your character to use going forward. Rather than, oh well, there’s nothing else to do with this guy, so I don’t know what else to do. Basically in Brink, you are unlocking YOUR character once you get to level 20 to suit your preferred playing style while still within the context of a team-oriented goal. Now you are ready to either make another or use that guy. Hope that makes sense.

[its_al_bout_security]

i have 6 level 20s and such it feels monotomous to continually re-level/ respec but all my characters lo0k pretty sweeet
like a damn army of pimps

[peteXnasty]

Rank should be independant of level

I also think rank should be some insanely high number andmore factors should contribute to it than sheer xp, and factors that help your rank should be given a nice fun GUI overlay.

Rank should also get you nothing as a reward except maybe clothing options. It should just be a fun indicator of your skill level and should act like ranks do in fighting games online, where you’re in danger of losing rank (or points towards rank) with poor performance.

It should be status only. I think that would satisfy everybody. God knows I loved getting monster kills in UT and whenever I saw a stream of numbers get higher and higher in a COD match when I bodied some team, it felt gooooood

[Kalbuth]

Why is there leveling in the first place? Limit in simultaneous abilities number is more than enough to have forced variations

Having a leveling system in place just shows you don’t have faith in your game being fun enough to be played for what it has to offer

[kiunk]

Maybe if there was some suitable reward for having the maximum (10 i think), level 20 characters, it would add to the longevity.

I would love to have seen the ability to switch between characters ‘MID game’.
Seems a suitable reward for creating all those characters and specialising them for specific duties. Shame it’ll never happen.

[Kalbuth]

[QUOTE=kiunk;324173]Maybe if there was some suitable reward for having the maximum (10 i think), level 20 characters, it would add to the longevity.

I would love to have seen the ability to switch between characters ‘MID game’.
Seems a suitable reward for creating all those characters and specialising them for specific duties. Shame it’ll never happen.[/QUOTE]

Not mid game, this could be gameplay-breaking, but at least, be able to switch character without disconnecting from the server, or changing morpho

[tokamak]

Here’s an idea: Make 4 Class Specific Characters: A Medic, A Soldier, An Operative, and an Engineer. Level each one to 20. Now make 6 Characters that are Hybrids. Level them to 20. That’s ten characters that all have unique abilities and customization options. 20x10=200. That’s 200 levels.

You’re only moving the ceiling up. XP needs to be a currency that can be used daily.