E.T. for competitive (i.e. Clan) games?

(Salteh) #21

ummm. yes that might be a problem :slight_smile:

(Vengeance) #22

I have to say ppl are making a lot of judgements just from 1 map. There are 5 other maps to come which may be more suitabe for clan map.

(SCDS_reyalP) #23

Judging by splashdmages past maps, and the changes made for et (single level command map, grid cooridinates instead of named locations) as well as comments from interviews, it seems fair to guess that fuel dump is likely to be representative of other ET maps.

For competative play under anything like the current wolf rules, 30 mintute half rounds is way to much. There already have been wolf matches that ran for like 3 hours.

An option to start the map with certain objectives already completed might be a solutions to this, e.g. being able to start fuel dump with the bridge built and tunnel door blown.

Being able to control the leveling system would also be a good thing, although seeing what strats evolved if some amount of leveling was left in might be interesting.

(Kendle) #24

RiverStyx, I do totally respect your point of view, and if you do provide servers for your “group” and others to play on, all the best to you. I wish there were more like you. Obviously, in this debate as in any others, there are going to be a wide range of views.

If any of what I’ve said comes across as criticism of E.T., or “league Clan arrogance”, then I apologise. The fact is I love E.T. I think it adds a degree of realism to RTCW and extends the teamwork/strategic nature of the game, which is the main reason people play RTCW in the first place and not other FPS games.

However, unless it is embraced by Clans (yes, the sort that play leagues), it will become a minority game. In the same way that Tram, Market Garden and the GOTY maps are all great maps, but none are played in leagues (even the GOTY maps), and feature on only a small minority of servers, so it will be with E.T. And that would be truly sad, because it’s a great game, and best of all it’s FREE. It should, and could, be the biggest thing to hit on-line gaming for years, but I fear it won’t unless smaller maps are made for it and the XP system can be switched off.

(Mat L) #25

I think there’s also an underlying infrastructure restriction argument going on here that nobody’s noticed. Kendel is coming at this from a UK perspective, where we have very limited broadband coverage and so running your own server or group thereof is prohibitively expensive.
In the US and Europe, these restrictions are nowhere near as dominant, as the level of internet access available to the public is generally a lot better than that in the UK.

For ET to really take off in the UK, one has to pay attention to Kendel’s arguments. It’s only the companies than can run public servers whilst the internet is regulated with such a heavy hand in the UK.

Hell, if I had access to a decent and affordable high bandwidth option, I’d be running a group of servers; they cost very little to make up, especially if you’ve got parts lying around from old systems, but the point is, one company is controlling the rollout of ADSL, and one company only; whilst that is the situation, you’ll find that broadband is only rolled out where population centres are their most dense.

As it stands, I know for a fact that every last uk exchange is connected via fibre, but BT are too stingey to roll this out to the general populace.
We’ve got an awesome network, but that counts for diddly when a monopoly runs that network.

(RivrStyx) #26

I guess… why not make smaller maps and switch off the XP… hmm… i think i’ve already played that game. I guess Ice isn’t widely played on servers or chateau

The smaller maps would be fun… like have the tank maybe travel 10 yards or less and breach an entrance (hopefully defense could setup in time). I guess take the mortars out… and take the command map out …wouldn’t be needed if going smaller than the test map. I guess alot would need to go with the XP system removed. The test map isn’t much bigger than assualt but maybe your right… Maybe a seperate ET for the UK. Guess we’ll see what happens

(Kendle) #27

Oh dear, this argument could rage forever…

Ice is played in leagues in the UK, although it came with a patch not the GOTY map pack. Chateau isn’t played in any leagues and you’ll be hard pressed to find a UK public server playing it. Don’t know why this is mind you, I like it personally.

Things like the Command Map and Fireteams would be pretty irrelevant for Clan games cos teams talk to each other on comms. No need for a Covert Op to spot mines and others to check their map to see where they are when he can just tell them over comms.

Not sure what, if anything, would need to go along with the XP system? Disabling XP just means players natural skills are used rather than being upgraded/downgraded by code in the game. XP is an excellent mechanism for encouraging team-play on publics, but irrelevant for Clan games where team-play is inherent.

FuelDump is loads bigger than Assault, and in fact could quite easily be split into 2 separate maps either of which would be comparable in size to Assault. Map 1, the bit on the bridge side of the map with the objective being Allies have to build a bridge and blow the door, Map 2 being the bit on the Base side of the map with the objective being Allies have to break into the Base and blow the Fuel Dump. Both would leave plenty of scope for using Mortars, mobile MG42’s and all the other cool stuff in E.T. whilst making the map smaller and round times shorter, etc.

No need to make an E.T. for the UK, just make an E.T. that has cvars for switching off the stuff that isn’t needed or indeed would hamper Clan matches, and either make smaller maps or “tourney” editions of existing ones whereby they’re split into more manageable chunks. UFO is a good example of a custom map that’s now becoming adopted for league games now that the author has released a “tourney” edition. Quite simply, large maps, massive teams, games lasting hours, just ain’t gonna happen. If it were viable Clans would already be playing Market Garden and Tram, but they’re not, and never will.

Quite simply, as I’ve said before, and as Mat L re-states above, for-profit businesses provide the public servers in the UK, and these businesses are funded by Clans (for the most part). An E.T. that isn’t Clan friendly will undoubtedly survive in some form or other (possibly more so on your side of the pond than ours) but it will never take it’s place as the greatest on-line, team-based, multi-class, FPS that it deserves to be. I’m not saying that’s right, I’m just being a realist. How sad it that were to be the case. It’d be interesting to know SD’s thoughts on this, though I doubt we’ll get them. :frowning:

(DG) #28

Clans dont only bring a lot of servers (and the better ones), they are a lot of players.

XP must have a cvar to fix it at a set level. There is no actually reason not to do this, its an OPTION. EXP adds too much noise for clanwar, and then what if a player drops and has to rejoin when everyone is on level 3? A HUGE disadvantage from a dropped connection, makes clanwar too unstable. Already players frequently drop in 12 player, sub-1 hour rtcw games.

XP also discourages swapping classes midgame, a huge part of tactical play and a large part of the fun in it. Can go from losing a match to winning with a smart class swap, adjusting tactics ingame is where a large part of the brains in class-orientateds games. Swapping in the middle of a game with only half strengh is a severe deterrent. Thirdly, XP means the winning team gets synthetically better while the losing team stays the same. Games going down to the wire are always the most fun; encouraging one team to increasingly own the other by design doesnt add to the fun. This is also an issue for publics but far more so in clanwar where there is proper organisation and less other variables.

30 mins a round is far too long. A clanwar could be an hour playing as each side in objective mode, and even then draws are likely and the only way to settle would be another hour, possibly still resulting in a draw. Playing stopwatch would require ABBA so theres a reasonable possibility of TWO hours, plus at least another half from pauses and inbetween games (quite plausably this could be an hour). This isnt only too much for the players, it takes up far too much server time - double or triple the server time needed for a rtcw match. Good luck for league/cup admins getting that amount of server, and have fun trying to organise it.

Just because it’s free doesnt mean it automatically becomes huge. Most peopel would rather pay for good entertainment than play something thats no fun for free.

As for tweaking, totally seperate issue, and anyway practically irrelevant in ET.

Fueldump is not only bigger than assault, but the axis side of the gate isnt usually used much, whereas the bridge area and fueldump area both ARE in ET, and both are comparable with the effecive playing area of assault. ANyway, moot point - I’d be very surprised if they didnt already have most of the final version maps done, and “Enemy Territory’s maps are generally four times the size of Return to Castle Wolfenstein’s” (http://www.gamespot.com/pc/action/returntocastlewet/news_6025602-2.html)

Game servers need to be paid for by someone. Even a large portion of game websites are paid by server hosting companies, or at least clan website hosting companies. Public servers cost a LOT of money, a lot of hardware and a hell of a lot of bandwidth.

TBH RivrStyx, I dont know why you bother arguing most of your points. you already said you dont play rtcw competitively, so other than the maps issue, none of it affects you anyway, other than retaining the leet clan players you seem to hate so much.

(RivrStyx) #29

Well i guess DG your the reason i don’t care for competitive clans and i’ve played in leagues since Q1. I like he competition and some of the players are level headed. But the majority come across as you do. Don’t know if your in a competitive clan or just heard the arrogance so much you’ve adopted it.

"Clans dont only bring a lot of servers (and the better ones), they are a lot of players. "

That first statement says it all. 1st alot of clan servers are private…2nd the clan servers i’ve played on are far from fun. Good players… but childish. Constant fighting back and forth with other clans… trashtalking…kicked if you do something to hurt there egos… and mouths that should be washed out with soap. Thats not fun to me and public servers have just as good competition if you play on the right ones. I know you’ll say they don’t …but i’ve played both alot. Organization… maybe on private servers …not clan public servers. Servers like locked box where clans play is rediculious. They TK alot and never say sorry.

Away…Don’t understand why you all don’t stick with RTCW …it has everything you mention. Just don’t want things changed for clans at others expense delaying release further. and the maps are a big deal…i’ll be playing them (but sure the maps to be released are about done anyway)

Actually most of the top clans , with exeption of some, are cool players… its the ones in between that make up the majority and not at the top that alot are assholes… and think their more than they are. These players make up alot of the player base but a small percentage overall.
Stopwatch may not work so well in ET because of long games… may have to adopt. Like shortened the time to 15 min and play single obj…like they did before SW. I understand your point with ET… and wasn’t so much the competition part but the part about needing these clans for ET to survive. It will.

Like i said at the end of my last post… “Guess we’ll see what happens” and fuel dump isn’t alot bigger but your right the one side isn’t used. Put a flag in the caves and cut the footbridge passage… theres assualt pretty close size wise

(hummer) #30

Gah!

Quotes… use quotes! They’re our friends… they make the argumentative process that much easier!

BTW, Ice is fairly widely played. Especially for competition… it’s a favorite for most clanners.

Some like UFO, but the map is too well balanced almost… matches often come down to seconds, with many full holds… those doc runs can be a bitch. I watched a NARF vs Uprise broadcast on UFO once… wow… that lasted a while and was CRAZY. However, the teams were totally worn out afterwards. I’ve experienced this myself playing that map…

However, I don’t think SD necessarily owes anyone a clan friendly game. They’re the game makers, and they’re making a game for their audience. If they like big, open maps, good for them. That’s their style, and their target gamer. Clans will follow or they won’t, but isn’t it enough they’re giving is this game for free? Not to mention the mapping / mod tools that will undoubtedly come from this…

The possibilities are virtually endless to what can come from this project.

(DG) #31

So you think clan games shouldnt be encouraged at all, because you find the majority of clanned players to be childish, arrogant and tk alot without saying sorry? Because you dont like their attitude?

Thats quite a thing to say. I’ve no problem saying I know of quite a few clanned players who behave like you say, and worse. Saying this about the majority is more than a little unfair though.

Hummer, like most people I got the impression the forums are here to provide feedback and suggestions. IMO, in this thread there’s some thought out, well argued and fair points in favour of clan support, and no suggestions of “SUPER CLAN TWEAK BOX BATTLE FIGHT X”, nor “lets not have non-clanned players 'cos I dont like a few people’s attitude and have made sweeping generalisations that theyre mostly like that”.

(SCDS_reyalP) #32

Saying thanks and sorry is actually a bad habit, if effective gameplay is your primary goal. It is good for smoothing things over on pubs, where you don’t know people, but aside from that, it is pointless. If someone I know is a decent player tks me in a combat situation, me I don’t care if they say sorry or not.

I don’t think SD needs to cater to the current RTCW ‘elite’, but having the game be good for some kind of organized competition is a good thing for the community, IMO.

While there are plenty of ‘clanners’ who are immature assholes, the same is true of the whole online gaming community.

I don’t know what ‘clan’ servers you have played on that are so bad, but the servers I have enjoyed the most are almost all run by a clan or frequented by serious clan players. Better teamwork, active admins, and good sportsmanship.

(ColdBackHAND) #33

It sounds like the clan cry baby crap has infested here. Oh, the map is to big and we are tired after matches. Who cares! Here’s my favorite, the exp should be disabled for clan matches. I forget who stated about he having mad med exp because he could spam med packs and was unable to fight. Let me say this, you choose how to best support your team.
Now you are crying because you can’t have it both ways. I believe that some clans will try to make ET just like RTCW because they cater only to themselves while trying to gain support for their bs. Now then, I am in a clan that does play in compitition. I think the exp can stay for clan matches and use a default time. Why can I say this, because I’m not a pnsse and expect things to be easier because its a match. As for dropping out of a match. I say tuff luck. You are taking the risk of playing on internet so deal with it. If you want the no excuses type of play
I suggest going to your local lan fest. At least there I don’t here cry babies and there poor me bs.

c-ya

(Kendle) #34

Well there’s obviously a split in the community between Clanned and non-Clanned, and it seems an Atlantic divide between the UK and our American cousins. Fair enough, and I respect everyones view here, although some of you are being far too quick to make sweeping generalisations.

RiverStyx, you shoot yourself in the foot by insulting DG, one of the most respected members of the UK Clan community, and as far from being the childish, loutish, Clan player you despise that you could possibly get. You also shoot yourself in the foot by saying that FuelDump could be reduced from 30 minute rounds to first 20 and now 15 minute rounds, and agreeing that, with a few modifications, it could be made more suitable for Clan play. That was all I was arguing for in the first place!

I’m not sure if English is your first language, but I struggle to understand the logic of that sentence.

The reason we play SW is because it’s fair, and Objective isn’t. Clans don’t have to adapt, not because they’re arrogant bastards, but simply because it’s their choice. They either will or the won’t. My point is that if they don’t, E.T. will end up with just as few servers in the UK as Market Garden and Tram, i.e. not many. And that would be a real shame for such a great (and FREE) game.

Congratulations on completely missing the point! Big maps = long rounds = long games = more server time required to play matches. Server time is expensive. Leagues already struggle to find enough server time to play matches. The league I’m involved with, Jolt, plays 8 games a night, over 2 nights, on 4 servers. Thats 4 divisions of 8 teams per division. We can play 2 games a night because they only last an hour or so (first games start at 8pm, the second at 9pm). You then need Refs (who are all volunteers remember). Jolt only needs 4. Translate that to E.T. and games lasting 2 hours at least and you need either 4 servers used over 4 nights and Refs giving up 4 evenings a week to help out, or 8 servers and 8 Refs played over 2 nights. Either way, twice as much server time and twice as many volunteers to help run it. Ain’t gonna happen!

And I repeat, for the umpteenth time, if Clans don’t adopt E.T., in the UK, who’s going to provide the public servers for us all to play this wonderful game on? Answer = no-one!

(BoltyBoy) #35

My arguments-

There are BF1942 clans, leagues and servers playing it. The way I see it, I’d consider this game far less condusive to team play than ET - therefore it must be dead in the water by now right?

Kendle, just because YOU may not feel ET will work for clans I’ll wager you a heck of a lot of other people will feel differently…not counting the three approaches I’ve already had to be in ET clans!!

AND I think it’s a bit soon to judge how well a game will play (clan wise) after only seeing one map!

(Kendle) #36

Of course you’re correct on all points BoltyBoy. There are some clans playing BF1942. Some being the opperative word, there aren’t that many.

There are some public servers hosting maps not played by Clans, and there will be some public servers hosting E.T. There will be some E.T. Clans, just as there are some RTCW Clans still playing Objective mode. There’s a ClanBase ladder specifically for Objective mode, they call it “Classic” and there are some Clans on it.

I guess my frustration with this whole issue comes from the fact that E.T. is such a great game, and, being FREE, has the potential to be huge. I don’t want to see some E.T. Clans, I want to see 100’s (1000’s even).

E.T. is still in test, and this forum is supposedly a place where interested parties can come and express their views. However, I don’t doubt that the remaining maps are pretty much finished, and I doubt even less that SD gave any thought to the suitability of E.T. as a Clan game when designing it. Nevertheless, it is still in test, and whilst there’s even a glimmer of hope that E.T. could be the next big thing (as opposed to simply being the next thing) I’ll keep banging on about it.

Anyway, thanks for all your comments and suggestions. I think I’ve made all my points, as have many others. As we English say, “the proof is in the pudding”. We’ll see how many public servers there are a few months after the final release. I’d guess more than those currently playing Market Garden/Tram/Depot/Customs, etc., but still only a fraction of those hosting RTCW “war maps”. :frowning:

(Mat L) #37

Ah, so that WAS you reffing our game last night then Kendle!
Heh, Malf 'ere.

(Dawg) #38

Maybe I am missing something here but . . .

Assuming all of the official maps produced by SplashDamage are not condusive to clan-play, cannot the market for clan-oriented maps be filled by the custom map market? If the market is indeed as strong as the pro-clan element insists, surely the mapping community will make up for any shortcomings in the ‘official’ map packages.

Obviously, there is the issue of everyone having a particular map. Those with dialup connections don’t have to be told this is a problem. But in a clan, only one person need d/l the map and distribute it to his clanmates the old-fashioned way - by disk. But the league hosting a match should be able to announce what map will be played (or a set of maps) ahead of time so that the players can make their own arrangements for procuring the maps. This seems simple enough to me.

Modifying ET to accomodate the current system of clan-play is foolish. The thought-process that “it should be done this way because we have always done it this way” is short-sighted at best. I imagine that the clan community will discover new ways to run their matches if they find vanilla ET not to their liking.

Dawg

(Kendle) #39

It’s not a case of “it should be done this way because we have always done it this way”. It’s a case of smaller maps / shorter rounds is the only viable option for Clan play and Stopwatch, rather than Objective, is played for a reason, a very good reason (it’s inherently more fair in case you hadn’t twigged).

As for “the clan community will discover new ways to run their matches if they find vanilla ET not to their liking”. I very much doubt it. If it ain’t to their liking they won’t play it, simple. Some might respond to that with a big fat “who cares!”. My point is we should all care (well certainly those of us in the UK) cos we rely on Clans playing RTCW to provide a market for public servers. If no Clans are playing E.T. there’s no need for GSPs to provide E.T. publics, at least not on anything like the same scale as they would if Clans were playing it.

There are already loads of good custom maps for RTCW, but only one has ever made it into competition, UFO. Who’s going to take on the task of producing 6 or 8 custom maps and getting them tested and approved by every league? All I’m suggesting is Splash Damage make some minor tweaks to existing ones, or produce “tourney” editions in addition to not instead of, the maps they’ve already produced.

Besides, re-working maps or making new custom ones doesn’t address the Experience Points issue. I’ve read elsewhere that most people are assuming this feature will be disabled for Clan play. I never assume anything. I’m simply asking that SD add a server-side cvar to switch it off as an option, thereby having zero impact on how E.T. plays on public servers.

And Hi Malf! Yep, twas me. Some manic games on Sub last night, but then there always is. :smiley:

(Pippi) #40

cos we rely on Clans playing RTCW to provide a market for public servers. If no Clans are playing E.T. there’s no need for GSPs to provide E.T. publics, at least not on anything like the same scale as they would if Clans were playing it.

That’s so true… I come from other gamescommunities where there wasn’t a thriving clancommunity, which meant there were no servers available anymore really really fast… :confused:

Most companies just won’t sponsor public servers if they can’t benefit from it.