Does Fletcher Really Need to be Changed?

(Dawnlazy) #221

Something that visibly and repeatedly yields vastly superior results to the point where it completely dominates the meta to the exclusion of its supposed alternatives most certainly warrants the label of overpowered. Fletcher is overpowered as an engineer because he kills as effectively as an assault, thus making it pointless to pick any other engineer over him.

Likewise Redeye is even more broken because he is literally uncounterable unless if another Redeye pops in and out-PDP’s him. Just look at the insane impact he has in the game whenever 2 organized teams are facing each other and at least one of them has a competent Redeye.

[quote=“Szakalot;168103”]trololol, what type of proof of unbias would you accept?

and why is it jumping black man? never heard anyone refer to aura’s ethnicity.

try playing fletcher on chapel, bush is 50times better. last ev push fletcher is a deadweight, cant get close, cant push people off crossfires[/quote]

Why on Earth would I pick Bushwhacker over Fletcher specifically for the last stretch of the EV push in Chapel? Everyone traditionally struggles against crossfires in that spot, but when the team pushes Fletcher can devastate the garage area and also block people walljumping to come out of their spawn either through secret or through the cubby next to the EV parking slot at the construction. Bush can… be lame and do less than half of what Fletcher can do in terms of sheer firepower.

(Szakalot) #222

[quote=“Dawnrazor;168464”]

Why on Earth would I pick Bushwhacker over Fletcher specifically for the last stretch of the EV push in Chapel? Everyone traditionally struggles against crossfires in that spot, but when the team pushes Fletcher can devastate the garage area and also block people walljumping to come out of their spawn either through secret or through the cubby next to the EV parking slot at the construction. Bush can… be lame and do less than half of what Fletcher can do in terms of sheer firepower.[/quote]

I’ve been playing fletcher and assaulting that garage many times, and its very very ineffective. Flecher excels in spamming a choke when he has cover to do it from, as throwing bombs is slow, too slow to do it in the open. In order to accurately throw bombs into garage you need to expose yourself to major crossfires from ev destination/spawnramp/mg areas. There is basically no position fletcher can threaten, yes you can get some long distance bombs from either side (under the stairs -> garage, or next to garage -> ev destination) but in the meantime the push has stopped to a halt and half your team is dead.

Unlike Fletcher, Bush has access to proper SMG -KEK and can actually help the team push enemy defense of one of the chokes, usually the ev destination. If you are trying to swarm the garage jumping in and dropping a turret is also better than throwing bombs, first person to go in dies so fast, fletcher will likely not be able to even detonate : P

(Dawnlazy) #223

[quote=“Szakalot;168470”][quote=“Dawnrazor;168464”]

Why on Earth would I pick Bushwhacker over Fletcher specifically for the last stretch of the EV push in Chapel? Everyone traditionally struggles against crossfires in that spot, but when the team pushes Fletcher can devastate the garage area and also block people walljumping to come out of their spawn either through secret or through the cubby next to the EV parking slot at the construction. Bush can… be lame and do less than half of what Fletcher can do in terms of sheer firepower.[/quote]

I’ve been playing fletcher and assaulting that garage many times, and its very very ineffective. Flecher excels in spamming a choke when he has cover to do it from, as throwing bombs is slow, too slow to do it in the open. In order to accurately throw bombs into garage you need to expose yourself to major crossfires from ev destination/spawnramp/mg areas. There is basically no position fletcher can threaten[/quote]

There are clear pieces of cover, either in front of garage or retreating into the alley. Not to mention the sheer entry power of Fletcher, opening a push with a sticky alone renders him far more valuable than Bushwhacker could ever be.

Unlike Fletcher, Bush has access to proper SMG -KEK and can actually help the team push enemy defense of one of the chokes, usually the ev destination.

How is the Blishlok not a “proper smg”? After the buffs it’s pretty much in line with the rest of the smgs plus he has the Empire-9 which essentially works as 2/3 of a Hochfir.

If you are trying to swarm the garage jumping in and dropping a turret is also better than throwing bombs

Dropping a turret when there are people shooting at you is an idiotic move that will immediately get you killed and set the turret on full cooldown. Throwing explosives at your enemies, on the other hand, tends to get THEM killed more often than not.

All in all it sounds to me as if you’re trying to take an extremely specific situation which is already unbalanced toward the other team and requires complex teamwork to push through and set it up as a “Fletcher vs the whole enemy team” scenario due to the crossfires. There is literally not a single case ever where it’s better to push with a slower 110 HP merc with 1 smg and an ability that requires a break from combat to be put to use than with a faster 110 HP merc with 2 smgs that also has an extremely versatile ability that can either be used on the fly or on a short break from combat. The firepower doesn’t even compare, Bushwhacker only had his place in the meta because Fletcher was considered too bug-ridden to be viable so most people didn’t even explore the things he could do and Proxy has always been for hipsters.

(Szakalot) #224

I take your point, but from my personal experience I always felt useless as fletcher on that stage, and a lot more effective as bush; as I could engage opponents at any range.

Blish is shit past close range, even after the buffs, unless you go ADS; which is fine for flanking/1on1 or defending; but absolutely terrible when trying to push at mid range. I also do not accept the ‘opening with a sticky’: you don’t get to open with a sticky, its too slow. In order to open up you need to be able to keep moving forward while doing the ‘opening’: thats why fragger or nader or stoker are very effective openers: they go into a choke, and blast/prefire corners, while still pushing forward. If fletcher tries to do the same - yeah you will throw one sticky, and while you are detonating you are forced to push, completely defenseless. IF you halt, you stop the whole push and your team gets smashed at the choke. If you aren’t the first one going in, its very hard to throw stickies, with FF and collision on.

Actually thats probably the main difference in our experiences. Fletcher is considerably weaker with FF and collision on, whereas on pubs you can THROW STICKIES THROUGH PEOPLE without having to worry about any friendly fire.

And IMO people didn’t play fletcher at the beginning cause they didn’t know how. There were very few good fletcher players in close beta too (easily less than 6, out of hundreds) when fletcher was actually a lot more powerful (4 stickies, faster flying speed iirc, sticky would destroy deployables at any splash damage range due to a bug etc.)

(Dawnlazy) #225

This makes zero sense, Fletcher is BETTER in this regard because he can instantly throw his projectile without having to wait like Fragger and also gets to instantly detonate it mid-air without having to wait for the fuse like Nader. Stickies are NOT “slow” by any stretch of imagination, throwing and detonating a sticky is overall the least time-consuming form of throwing an explosive in the game unless you are very specifically counting Nader getting direct hits which is not something that can be consistently pulled off like immediately detonating a sticky.

Fletcher is considerably weaker with FF and collision on

…have you not noticed how everything that I’ve said completely disregards pubs and is centered around competitive play, where one assumes FF on? Regardless the same could be said about any area of effect merc.

(Szakalot) #226

This makes zero sense, Fletcher is BETTER in this regard because he can instantly throw his projectile without having to wait like Fragger and also gets to instantly detonate it mid-air without having to wait for the fuse like Nader. Stickies are NOT “slow” by any stretch of imagination, throwing and detonating a sticky is overall the least time-consuming form of throwing an explosive in the game unless you are very specifically counting Nader getting direct hits which is not something that can be consistently pulled off like immediately detonating a sticky.[/quote]

least time consuming? lol by far the most, as far the time you are exposed to the elements, haha.

Fragger can cook and then peek for a time shorter than can be registered by the opposing team’s client, basically making an uncounterable nade. Similarly, Nader can open up as soon as turning the corner.

How about fletcher?

  • turn corner with a pre-armed sticky
  • throw sticky
  • wait AT LEAST ‘your ping’ amount of MS (otherwise, using the detonator will cancel the throw animation and no sticky will be thrown, surely any fletcher knows what im talking about)
  • press detonation
  • detonation animation ensues, 350ms delay on lockon, half a second without

Optimistically, its a half a second exposure to the opponent, whereas nader and fragger can forego exposure altogether (ideally). It might not seem like much, but it makes all the difference when being a pointman. Which is why Fletcher is not an assault, and also why he is a lot better defending (like all engineers). Plus, nader and fragger can bounce their explosives in, pushing people off choke before the engagement even starts.

This delay is what makes fletcher powerful when juking corners, you can throw sticky and start hiding midway through throwing animation, then detonate from safety. It is also why a more effective way to turn a corner is often by walljumping in, as you minimize the time you are exposed to the opponent, and hope that the blast from the explosion will provide some cover while you are trying to switch weapons or throw another sticky. However, jumping in doesn’t work as well when you are trying to have the team push behind, as there is recovery time after long jumps, even for springy-fletcher, plus it exposes you to the entire enemy team.

Didn’t notice you were talking about ff/collision on; like you said, it makes AoE mercs weaker, thus making the other engineer (bush, cause proxy is for hipsters) more viable.

(Dawnlazy) #227

[quote=“Szakalot;168510”]
Fragger can cook and then peek for a time shorter than can be registered by the opposing team’s client, basically making an uncounterable nade. Similarly, Nader can open up as soon as turning the corner.

How about fletcher?

  • turn corner with a pre-armed sticky
  • throw sticky
  • wait AT LEAST ‘your ping’ amount of MS (otherwise, using the detonator will cancel the throw animation and no sticky will be thrown, surely any fletcher knows what im talking about)
  • press detonation
  • detonation animation ensues, 350ms delay on lockon, half a second without[/quote]
    All of those steps together take under a second. You click, the sticky flies, you detonate and it explodes up to half a second later. As opposed to waiting around 2 seconds while cooking a Fragger nade or 1.7 seconds after launching in the case of Nader. Fletcher does NOT have to wait at all, neither before nor after throwing it, you just throw the sticky in a near-instant animation of a few miliseconds and then detonate which is usually fast enough to explode before it even touches anything unless it’s a super short range throw. In fact even going through all 3 stickies doing throw-detonate-throw clocks at about 3 seconds until the last sticky goes off.

Didn’t notice you were talking about ff/collision on; like you said, it makes AoE mercs weaker, thus making the other engineer (bush, cause proxy is for hipsters) more viable.

Bushwhacker isn’t worth considering over Fletcher. Like I said he has a much harder time getting kills where Fletcher drops them effortlessly. I don’t bother playing anything other than Fletcher as engie anymore and it sure seems like every other team out there runs a Fletcher by the looks of this last weekend’s DBN cup, for very good reasons.

(Szakalot) #228

alright, but the thing i was discussing was the time it takes to dish out damage while also taking damage (being exposed to the opponent), which is notably higher for fletcher than for either nader or fragger, as far as explosives. Thats why its very hard to push as fletcha, with stickies.

I am not disputing that Fletcher is the best engineer at the moment. He is.

plus explosives have extra utility, as far as enemy deployables, one shotting sparks, blowing up generator/ev. Not that long ago though everyone was using bush, and with the scene relatively small at the moment, it might be more variance and trends setting in rather than pure choices of effectiveness. Anyways, there are rumors going around (see the other thread) about fletcher getting an AoE nerf.

Personally, rather than nerfing everything, id rather they bring up the engineers to par. Proxy needs a new dimension to be useful, or a new gamemode where her speed might be relevant. Many buffs could exist for bush to bring up the fletcher/bush balance closer to 50/50 rather htan the 80/20 -> 20/80 we saw over the last year.

And one merc from any class will always have to be the best, which should never force devs hand to keep rebalancing.

(Dawnlazy) #229

But you don’t even have to hang around, peek -> throw (release if you were already prepared) and then detonate while you’re doing whatever else including possibly running back into cover. Fragger is by far the most vulnerable one in here since you can catch him right as he starts cooking, or predict when he’s going to come out and punish accordingly. Nader isn’t usually as open but at least you are given a 1.7 second window to move away. Fletcher is also the one that can make himself the hardest target to hit since wallspamming incorporates so well into his playstyle compared to Nader and Fletcher.

I’d be fine with this but I’d rather have it simply not possible to start detonating before it sticks to something. Would encourage the more skillful play of going for direct hits and give players a bigger window to dodge (which would still be shorter than Nader since a sticky takes 0.35~0.5 seconds to go off and there’s usually at least a whole second for a nade to go off after traveling).

I like Proxy, conceptually she’s my favorite engie but I just can’t see her ever being any good, why would I want explosives which require my enemies to come to them rather than ones I can toss on them? She could perhaps be good in CTF I guess, but even then I think only in pubs. Bushwhacker is IMO fine as he is, I find him overshadowed because of how much better Fletcher is, which again I think is too much for what an engie is supposed to do. I also don’t think bolt-action sniper rifles should be buffed to PDP level, quite the opposite in fact, for the same reason.

None of the fire supports stands out as the best, Kira is the worst but still viable, and all medics are viable though Sawbonez is clearly the best. There can at least be SOME balance for the sake of variety in this regard, like how not everyone uses the same loadout card (save for Sparks and Rhino).

(Naonna) #230

christ, you two… get a room. - The measuring contest between Bushwacker and Fletcher isn’t exactly applicable, nor is it the focus of this topic.

Fletcher’s stickies can basically ruin any deploy-ables from any other fellow engies. (something i’ve noticed)

His stickies will 1 shot a proxy as well as remove proximity mines all from a fair distance away.

Against a competent Bushacker, Fletcher has a bit more trouble, but two stickies will remove a sentry. - If the Bushwacker is actually spending time guarding his own turret as intended, then Fletcher may lose. Without his turret, Bushwacker has to avoid ANY corners against a Fletcher. - Basically making Fletcher less follow-able than even proxy.

(Just some observations.)

(Szakalot) #231

@Dawnrazor

sorry cant quote on the phone:

fletcher pushing is the whole point i was making. if you want to juke enemies around a corner you arent pushing you are harassing. in the meantime you stand in the middle of a gigantic crossfire, slowing your team down, push like that is not going to work. yes nader doesnt always get direct hits, though its pretty likely considering you are pushing a known enemy position. regardless you can keep blasting: enemy either falls back or takes enough damage for the teammates behind you to do the job. yes fragger is vulnerable when cooking but thats why you cool behind cover, before the push.

youre proposed nerf is GIGANTIC. it will brong fletcher to proxy level, or worse!

getting stuck stickies on opponents is not feasible when you cant control the engagement by prefiring corners with airburst. it is also very hard to stick good players, and it gets almost impossibke at anything but very close range. plus it removes any of the skill involved with tricky throws (since there will be none), it limits fletcher playstyle to camping with sticky trap or using them on ev lol

(ClemClem7) #232

Here we agree that he is powerful.
The problem is that the job @Szakalot describe is an assault’s job (push in first line), not an engineer’s job (doing the objective behind teammates’ cover).
Here is the problem. Every fletcher’s defender consider that doing the job of assault fit to Fletcher and they say that it’s a nonsense if we nerf this point.
So I’m ok if he’s not anymore an engineer.
If he keeps this job, he need nerf.
Keep in mind everyone’s role and class.

(Szakalot) #233

my whole point was on how fletcher FAILS at doing the assault job

(ClemClem7) #234

Even you say he is less useful (which is not true), you compare him to fragger or Nader, but you can’t compare 2 different classes. Many players will say that he is as powerful as fragger or Nader. At the moment your ability can be used to win a 1v1, he’s doing an assault job. Proxy or bushwacker can’t win a 1v1 with their ability, they defend area, and protect the objective. They don’t push. Fletcher is able to push and kill someone as easily as fragger. In the time the frag nade explode (3s) you can throw and detonate 3 stickies (1s each). If you miss your first sticky or have a hitmarker without kill, you have another to throw. If you miss your frag grenade, you have to expose yourself.
And fragger is way more exposed to ennemies when he cook the nade. As Fletcher you can straff at a corner throw the sticky and detonate it while you’re in cover behind the corner.

(Szakalot) #235

im not gonna repeat the entire discussion again, you are late to the party, sorry