// does anyone have any idea for things that most definitely need to be nerfed?? //

(Nail) #41

harder to do with 9 pellets, I’d prefer a vertical pattern myself

(Glot) #42

actually it is equally easy to do for whatever number you have. even for 1shots. you just need a normal-random distribution (bell-shape), instead of uniform-random like we have now (equally flat probability).
i suggested this quite a while ago on the SD forums, and not sure if i was fully understood there.
the great thing in this is that in nature most random things can be described by normal ‘bell’ distribution - like sand falling in a sandwatch or like shots fired from a gun. and this would feel more natural.

(TheNinth) #43

@Glottis-3D
Do you mean it’d use the cumulative form from how many pellets hit the target?
That’s a pretty good way to do it.

(B_Montiel) #44

Well shotgun inconsistency is somehow what make those weapons different to play in video games. Making a statistically accurate spread pattern may make them more predictable and therefore let them be easier to use. IMO, this might ruin the balance on close range. I’m much of a shotgun fan in this game, but I’m also very found of letting luck choose if I have to one to three hit that phoenix who is 5m in front of me. I am pretty aware that shotguns are trumendously powerful and kind of break the game feeling (Maybe except proxy’s shotgun which has lower damage compared to the others and a terrible RoF that makes you defenceless if you miss the first shot). Simply reduce the spread, lower the rate of fire of aura’s and put a higher damage fall off might do the trick.

(Nail) #45

not disagreeing with center weighted, just not round pattern, more oval

(INF3RN0) #46

Liking the discussion. Overall shotguns should become a competitive and well versed weapon. It would be a first in FPS gaming.

(Szakalot) #47

Here is the Pellet Spread for Proxy shotgun, all other shotguns also follow this pattern. This is from the august2014 build; but should be fine for the purpose of this discussion. Center shot is normal, to the left you have ADS, and top right is mid-jump.

We have an outer circle of 10 pellets, an inner circle of 5, and one more pellet right in the middle.

I’ll try to summarize the consensus (again : P ) that is shaping up here regarding how shotguns should work:

  • shotguns should be advantageous in close range, below average at medium range, and godawful at long range
  • shotguns should only have OHK capacity towards light body types
  • shotguns effectiveness should scale with player skill more. The better the player holding the weapon, the more powerful the shotguns should be. It is okay if the skill ceiling is somewhat higher for SMGs/Sniper rifles.

How would shotgun appropriately scale with player skill?

  • damage multiplier for headshots
  • rewarding ‘perfect’ hits (all/almost all pellets hit the target)
  • pellets as in-game projectiles (UT Flak Cannon) <- yeah I know its not gonna happen :tongue:

Some thoughts:

  • Presently shotguns have a HS multiplier, which I am not opposed to; it makes for a tricky weapon that can deal a lot of damage if aiming at the head/neck, at the expense of running a risk of missing with a lot of the pellets. However, because of this risk; aiming for the head is only really viable at point-blank range, otherwise going for juicy bodyshots is more optimal for highest DPS.
  • In order for Headshot-aiming to be worthwhile, the effective DPS has to be higher than full-hit bodyshots (taking into account some pellets missing due to smaller hitbox), while avoiding the weapon becoming overpowered
  • One way to address this could be separating the inner&outer circles of pellets in damage & damage falloff. If the inner circle deals more damage, but has a significantly higher damage falloff than the outer circle, you could create a weapon that is deadly if aimed at the head, while avoiding potential OPness from random pellets hitting the head anyways
(Glot) #48

inner circle should have HS multplier, and outer circle should not. (so we will have to aim the head, less lucky spam shots)
good idea.

(Szakalot) #49

[quote=“Glottis-3D;7776”]inner circle should have HS multplier, and outer circle should not. (so we will have to aim the head, less lucky spam shots)
good idea.[/quote]

I like this, nice and simple.

(Nail) #50

I like too

(RuleofBooKz) #51

SHOTGUNS
yup good stuff if it can be done

PROXY MINE/ NADE issue
And about nades - yes! you get my point exactly - giving more characters nades ruins the game -

And no, grenades for every class is to me a massive misunderstanding of the game and the role that every class should fulfil. Giving grenades to all the mercs is shutting down all the gunfight aspects of the game.

I think giving nades to anyone is bad, i was obviously being sarcastic when i said “all mercs need nades if proxy has nades” so that takes me back to proxy has mines but uses them as nades. How to fix it?

Let me ask you this: If we made proxy mines have to be armed (as opposed to self arming as they are now). but at the same time gave proxy additionally to her mines, 3 nades as compensation would you be for it or against it - should proxy have mines AND nades? well above you just said nades ruin gun play and the game should be about mostly gun play.

Your own logic is we dont want mor enade spam so why not support the idea that proxy is breaking the game (her shotgun is enuf to “push with”) with mines that are also serviceable nades. Why not support the idea that her mines should only realistially be used as mines by taking away their self arming.

Sorry thats the only way i see it. if there is another way to balance proxys mine/ nade issue id like to hear it as she cant have both

(TheNinth) #52

I would KILL to play mine frisbee.

(einstyle) #53

I don’t think her mine that’s throwable for maybe 4 feet can be classified as a nade honestly. Let’s not see problems where there are none. Or what will you be doing once Fletcher is out?

(Szakalot) #54

fletcher’s sticky have significantly less splashdamage, and no proximity detonator.

(B_Montiel) #55

[quote=“RuleofBooKz;7853”]
Let me ask you this: If we made proxy mines have to be armed (as opposed to self arming as they are now). but at the same time gave proxy additionally to her mines, 3 nades as compensation would you be for it or against it - should proxy have mines AND nades? well above you just said nades ruin gun play and the game should be about mostly gun play.

Your own logic is we dont want mor enade spam so why not support the idea that proxy is breaking the game (her shotgun is enuf to “push with”) with mines that are also serviceable nades. Why not support the idea that her mines should only realistially be used as mines by taking away their self arming.

Sorry thats the only way i see it. if there is another way to balance proxys mine/ nade issue id like to hear it as she cant have both[/quote]

Thank for the time explaining your thought. Well, honestly, I totally agree with you on the self-arming side of mines. But I really want to keep the skeet-shoot style combo (throw it then shoot the mine to make it explode). Very hard to land, very rewarding and quite obvious for the enemy team (especially if mines are not self-arming anymore).

(INF3RN0) #56

I wouldn’t mind being able to throw the mine a bit further, but I still think that auto-armed mines should only deal 50% damage until manually armed. Overall I find a lot of abilities too easy to deal immediate damage with- to the point that a lot of people will ignore the gun play. Abilities should cooperate with the gun play or at least require some moderate mastery/risk in order to deal full damage.

(Glot) #57
  1. should be obvious for everyone which mine is manually-armed and which is auto-armed (different damage = different visuals).
  2. also would be nice for any engineer to fully-arm a teammate’s mine
  3. and as for a ‘drop-shoot-explode’ combo there should be a less time to switch from mine to a weapon. imho. i like the possibility to shoot a mine midair. kamikaze-mine that is.
(cosmopolitanSponge) #58

Hmm… to be honest I think they should nerf the nades just a little bit, I mean to me I think they are really easy to use, so maybe have like less damage around the area but stay the same when the nade is close to an enemy and yourself? I don’t know, just a thought :persevere:

(RuleofBooKz) #59

oh i should have said right form the get go im gunplay focused sry.

Three things -

  1. mines that are non self arming (as i hope they will eventually be) but can be shot to detonate without having to be armed is an idea i can get on board with. Good idea and works in context to the game imo. Not sure about if the mine should detonate when shot for full damage / radius or reduced etc but interesting idea to look at the numbers here.

  2. What im not keen on is the idea that a deployed unarmed mine do any damage (unless armed or shot), 50% reduced or otherwise, as mines that are not armed are basically inert (until shot or armed).

  3. In light of the above: The idea that teammates can arm teammates deployed (as to yet unarmed) mines is also interesting - could work including taking into account engy arming speed boost and non engy arming speed penalty.

Obviously anyone from either team can shoot any mine in the game, armed or otherwise, for detonation (mine detonated by getting shot buff / nerf to damage / radius being included here as a not as yet fixed variable)

Just thinking that if we did allow mines to be shot, and they were used that way in a gun fight on the fly, u will see more engy taking that character perk that prevents X amount of xplosion damage to self - good / bad valaid etc tactic that keeps game balance or not???

(B_Montiel) #60

Shooting your own mine just after deploying is already fine to me. Staying alive after doing such a reckless move is not that easy and it never should be.

Mines are allowed to be shot by the player who deployed it and the enemy team. Right now, team mates can not interfere with friendly deployables (to destroy them mainly). So that would sound rather awkward to me that they could be able to interfere with friendly mines. Unless you play with people who are willing to win entirely, I already see team mates shooting mines as a mistake or for pure trolling. And even arming should be reserved to the players who dropped it.
But mines not self arming is to me a deeper game design problem than it appears. Every character abilities in this game require only one player action to get them working/in place. Unless you’re aiming at a bad position with a deployable, you only have to hit the selected ability button to get your nade/mine throw, deploy your ammo/healing station. Therefore, it’d feel like that not self arming mines defeat that “game design concept”. It’d sound rather unbearable for some players to do two actions to have a mine fully working. And they won’t go proxy for that only reason. In a sense, for those who played in the past build, I’d say that Fletcher is quite neglected partly because of the triggering of his sticky bombs.
I’m pretty against mines drops in front of the enemy unless I know I have good chances to shoot it afterwards. Generally, that’s pure suicidal run not profitable for both you and your team. I really hope that players will understand that sooner or later. Maybe, to make things clear to anyone in the area that you dropped a mine (self-arming), there should be a quite distinctive sound when the mine hit the floor, or even turn it into a very noticeable color until it’s armed.