I totally support the idea of proxy dropping the mine and then shooting it. However, i think its ridiculous that the mine is used as a nade; you just run around dropping mines at people shooting each other & reviving, and you’ll get kills in the random chaos.
I also miss a way to disarm a mine. Very often I find myself looking at a mine that i’d like to disarm, but i can’t shoot it cause the blast will kill a clueless teammate. As such mines feel uncounterable, more so than any other ability.
Yup, agree to that.
Either have the Proxy shoot the mine for insta-Michael Bay action, or have her arm it to have it function as a trap, which would take about 0.5-1 seconds and would require here to be out of combat during this process.
Also, on a different note; If you shoot another Proxy’s mine, and kill her with that explosion you should get a kill reward, instead of having her ‘commit suicide’
Sometimes I Run up to people and ask for ammo and they just look at me like “You’re playing as Arty dummy!” and then I just drop an ammo pack for myself. It’s even worse when someone asks me for ammo.
When it comes to weapon/ability balance here’s my 2cents… bear in mind I’m considering general consistency amongst weapons/abilities and how they scale across the skill gap, as well as ignoring any general mechanics or real life functionality.
Shotguns:
Quadratic damage curve based on pellet % hit, for example 6 pellets total would deal increasing damage at a quadratic rate based on total % of pellets landed 2, 4, 8, 32, 64, 128. Headshots required for max damage, otherwise halved for body shots. Effective range and fire rate can be tweaked for balance purposes.
Grenade Launcher:
Triggered air-bursting mechanic, where in alt fire allows the grenade to be triggered mid-air. Highly reduced AoE per nade @ 40dmg per. Non-triggered direct hits result in 2.5x MP for both damage and AoE.
Minigun:
Extreme but predictable recoil on both the X and Y axis. Significant spread reduction while immobile.
K121:
Increased vertical recoil by 10% in hipfire and 5% in IS.
BR16:
Increased vertical recoil between bursts by 15%.
Healing Station:
Emits a non-interruptable healing pulse every 6-8 seconds.
Frag Grenades:
AoE is reduced the longer the grenade is cooked.
Mines:
Mines require an additional manual arm interaction to deal full damage, otherwise only dealing 50% capacity.
Turrets:
Turrets require an additional manual arm interaction to reach full HP, otherwise function at 50% capacity.
Sticky nades:
Sticky nades have a 5s arming time before becoming triggerable. Stuck players have a 3s animation to remove sticky mines from their person.
I’ve already said it in an other thread, but to me the ability to use mine during a fight is the only thing that allows you to play proxy on offense. I more than use the ability to drop a mine then shoot it. Without the option to make the mines explode on purpose or drop them in the middle of a fight, proxy will be become a pure defensive character that won’t be able to win 1vs2 (2 or more) fights
Where is it a given in DB that all characters should be able to be good at offense??
to which i give u sawbones, the medic, who has been classed, weaponed, HP and Speed nerfed to “fit in” with the new agenda.
Proxy cant be an offense character? Too bad! Take a page from sawbones and realise she shouldn’t be “offensive” in the same way sawbones should not be offensive.
Let proxy keep 3 mines and nades and let every other class have 3 nades or put proxy in her place like every other class for the sake of balance, pretty obvious what needs doing
I think mostly what needs to happen is nerfing the healing station.
its ridiculously good at holding spots, and is also good for running and gunning cause you can just drop it for a few seconds and pick it back up.
i think it may need like a building time perhaps, and you should be able to kill them in one knife.
[quote=“INF3RN0;7281”]When it comes to weapon/ability balance here’s my 2cents… bear in mind I’m considering general consistency amongst weapons/abilities and how they scale across the skill gap, as well as ignoring any general mechanics or real life functionality.
Shotguns:
Quadratic damage curve based on pellet % hit, for example 6 pellets total would deal increasing damage at a quadratic rate based on total % of pellets landed 2, 4, 8, 32, 64, 128. Headshots required for max damage, otherwise halved for body shots. Effective range and fire rate can be tweaked for balance purposes.
Grenade Launcher:
Triggered air-bursting mechanic, where in alt fire allows the grenade to be triggered mid-air. Highly reduced AoE per nade @ 40dmg per. Non-triggered direct hits result in 2.5x MP for both damage and AoE.
Minigun:
Extreme but predictable recoil on both the X and Y axis. Significant spread reduction while immobile.
K121:
Increased vertical recoil by 10% in hipfire and 5% in IS.
BR16:
Increased vertical recoil between bursts by 15%.
Healing Station:
Emits a non-interruptable healing pulse every 6-8 seconds.
Frag Grenades:
AoE is reduced the longer the grenade is cooked.
Mines:
Mines require an additional manual arm interaction to deal full damage, otherwise only dealing 50% capacity.
Turrets:
Turrets require an additional manual arm interaction to reach full HP, otherwise function at 50% capacity.
Sticky nades:
Sticky nades have a 5s arming time before becoming triggerable. Stuck players have a 3s animation to remove sticky mines from their person.[/quote]
i like everything, but shotgun thoughts.
non-linear dependance in dmg vs pellets will increase frustration even more.
i think that with shotgun you only need 2 parameters for balance dmg and distance
i do not even think that fall-off damage is necessary (mb for only very long distances)
because spread cone already does this falloff damage thingy - you cannot hit more than 1-2 pellets at long range.
something needs to be very simple to actually work properly.
quakelive has now this kind of shotgun damage pattern.
some time ago they used inner and outer circle
there are 2 ways to deal with those circles
to sum it up.
-shotguns need to be simple weapons in balancing. no need to overcomplexification the system
-pellet pattern can be full random or be more or less normalised (inner cirlce has more pellets - so ppl will have to aim). full random will lead to very consistent feel, but will demad less aiming. normalised distribution (inner circle) can lead to shotgun sniping - need to be carefull in this.
Proxy mines - longer arm time or manual arming, otherwise she should hit the mine to have instant explosion.
Br16 - obviously more recoil and a slight rate of fire nerf.
Machine pistol (vassili/proxy secondary weapon) - Less damage and maybe a bit more recoil, right now i can run around with machine pistol and it works better than some smgs =/.
Fragger MG (dont remember the name) - Decent damage nerf, its obviously too good right now (especially when used by fragger).
Fragger grenade - Longer cook time, longer travel time. Unless they nerf damage(which isnt the problem really) then i dont see any other way to nerf it correctly.
Healing station - Was said enough, but yea its broken right now.
Not exactly sure about vassili but i expect him to be a problem sooner or later.
Just from the top of my head and only from beta weekends alone.
Yup, agreed. Vassili himself is a bit weak IMO. Not because he can’t get kills but because a lot of times you won’t get a gib and the person you put down is instantly revived (jumping medics are hard to HS). But his sensor will be crazy crazy good for team play and knowing where people are coming from. I think it’s range might actually need to be tone down or the pulses to be a lot less often.
Proximity mines are fine, they make a loud beep which is already a huuge nerf. Just shoot them. Nothing wrong with fragger, you have to have strong nades to balance the aura stations, turrets, mines / other hold skills. He has to break up tight holds…
Aura station is too strong atm, should have less HP, maybe 1 or 2 hits to destroy.
Also the headshot TTK is perfect. 2 to 3 hits. I hated brinks terrible ttk. If there is no advantage to headshots aka titanfall than there is no point in going for them. Plus working towards skill with shooting gives players a lot of room to grow their skills. Games that dumb play down to narrow the skill gap never last longer than a year or two
i’m not sold that heartbeat sensor will be terrible for comp play. I kind of expect DB to be a little faster in COMP, with higher focus on fight-to-fight scenarios and team composition then a well executed strat of pushing a particular flank. Also, if you pick vassili for the heartbeat sensor, it means you don’t pick another medic/red eye (could be arguably better with sniper loadout, utility smoke and also spotting players), or whatever other class you would like.
Personally, I’d definitely prefer a comp system where you have to pick one merc for the entire round as either attack or defense.
(read: match - whole game; map - whole map; round - half the map)
[quote=“Glottis-3D;7318”]
i like everything, but shotgun thoughts.
non-linear dependance in dmg vs pellets will increase frustration even more.
i think that with shotgun you only need 2 parameters for balance dmg and distance
i do not even think that fall-off damage is necessary (mb for only very long distances)
because spread cone already does this falloff damage thingy - you cannot hit more than 1-2 pellets at long range.
something needs to be very simple to actually work properly.
quakelive has now this kind of shotgun damage pattern.
some time ago they used inner and outer circle
there are 2 ways to deal with those circles
to sum it up.
-shotguns need to be simple weapons in balancing. no need to overcomplexification the system
-pellet pattern can be full random or be more or less normalised (inner cirlce has more pellets - so ppl will have to aim). full random will lead to very consistent feel, but will demad less aiming. normalised distribution (inner circle) can lead to shotgun sniping - need to be carefull in this.[/quote]
Not sure if you got what I was meaning on the shotguns. The question is how can we create skill consistency for shotguns? With a big spread and flat damage per shot, the aim skill gap becomes the smallest in the game- where positioning and dodging are the bigger skill perhaps. Then you have the problem of ‘how do we balance a low skill weapon so that it isn’t OP or UP??’ So the goal I think should be to make it just as aim skillful or at least more so, so that it feels consistent with the rest of the weapons and doesn’t need to be so situational.
The idea of a quadratic damage curve means that the more pellets you land the more damage you deal at a quadratically increasing rate, thus enforcing aim consistency and rewarding it well. It’s too easy to land even 50% of your shots with a shotgun, so this made the most sense to me. Adding in a headshot MP focuses the aim for OHKs (assuming the shell spread at close range is head size), essentially making it a close range sniper rifle (but now requiring comparable aim to a sniper rifle). Adding cone spread at a distance with perhaps 3 shells not being as affected would help to maintain viability at a range, but not make it overly powerful. I’m just pushing for something completely unorthodox with the shotgun mechanics because it has always been considered the scum weapon of FPS and there’s no reason why we can’t turn that on its head in DB. Not to say my idea is the only one out there, but I think we need some outside of the box thinking here (quake SG doesn’t exactly push it as far as it needs).
I think the ‘quadratic’ is pulled little out of an arse, but I can support an exponential increase in damage. think of it as ‘shock trauma’
edit: nvm, don’t know what quadratic meant ; )
[quote=“INF3RN0;7404”]
Not sure if you got what I was meaning on the shotguns. The question is how can we create skill consistency for shotguns? With a big spread and flat damage per shot, the aim skill gap becomes the smallest in the game- where positioning and dodging are the bigger skill perhaps. Then you have the problem of ‘how do we balance a low skill weapon so that it isn’t OP or UP??’ So the goal I think should be to make it just as aim skillful or at least more so, so that it feels consistent with the rest of the weapons and doesn’t need to be so situational.
The idea of a quadratic damage curve means that the more pellets you land the more damage you deal at a quadratically increasing rate, thus enforcing aim consistency and rewarding it well. It’s too easy to land even 50% of your shots with a shotgun, so this made the most sense to me. Adding in a headshot MP focuses the aim for OHKs (assuming the shell spread at close range is head size), essentially making it a close range sniper rifle (but now requiring comparable aim to a sniper rifle). Adding cone spread at a distance with perhaps 3 shells not being as affected would help to maintain viability at a range, but not make it overly powerful. I’m just pushing for something completely unorthodox with the shotgun mechanics because it has always been considered the scum weapon of FPS and there’s no reason why we can’t turn that on its head in DB. Not to say my idea is the only one out there, but I think we need some outside of the box thinking here (quake SG doesn’t exactly push it as far as it needs).[/quote]
i totally get the quadratic idea.
i just think that this is not so necessary.
more important (imho) is center-weighted pellet distribution. (More pellets in the center, less in the outer area) - so that ppl will have to put their crosshairs to the enemymodel, not just ‘anywhere near the enemy’
i mean without normalized (center-weighted) pattern - quadratic dmg will make things even worse in the consistency department.
and i think that quadratic as a function is too strong. something less power than two seems more fair.
[quote=“Glottis-3D;7413”]
Not sure if you got what I was meaning on the shotguns. The question is how can we create
and i think that quadratic as a function is too strong. something less power than two seems more fair.[/quote]
That’s what I got from it too, thinking quadratic is exclusively y=x^2.
But it could very well be anything between ^1-2; so the numbers themselves can be easily adjusted. Point is to rewards juicy full-pellet hits, and limit effectiveness of shotties at anything else. This will push the shotgun towards its close combat corner, while still allowing it to bite people a bit at mid range.
Simple example: 10 pellets, at all hitting each pellet does 10 damage - so 100hp damage
At 9 pellets hit, each pellet does 9 damage - so 81hp damage (and not 90), etc. etc. This is already 20% difference.
Problem with shottie is its OHK potential combined with very certain 2 hits deaths. In the new system, If you don’t manage to land perfect shots, you might need more than 2 hits to kill the opponent, reducing the frustrating effect people have with shotty, while still maintaining a decent skill gap.
I welcome other solutions as well, but I’m all behind Inferno as far as shotguns skill ceiling being off-base by comparison to most of the other weapons.
It’s definitely her place, lack of HP, quite strong burst and high movement speed makes her the perfect pusher engineer. It would not make any sense to put her in a pure defensive role, except making her even more annoying on defence than she already does. You can’t compare sawbonez and proxy either. Not the same class, not the same work. Even though its sentry gun was a shame in the last builds where he was available, bushwacker is way more defence oriented than she does.
And no, grenades for every class is to me a massive misunderstanding of the game and the role that every class should fulfil. Giving grenades to all the mercs is shutting down all the gunfight aspects of the game.
[quote=“Szakalot;7446”][quote=“Glottis-3D;7413”]
Not sure if you got what I was meaning on the shotguns. The question is how can we create
and i think that quadratic as a function is too strong. something less power than two seems more fair.[/quote]
That’s what I got from it too, thinking quadratic is exclusively y=x^2.
But it could very well be anything between ^1-2; so the numbers themselves can be easily adjusted. Point is to rewards juicy full-pellet hits, and limit effectiveness of shotties at anything else. This will push the shotgun towards its close combat corner, while still allowing it to bite people a bit at mid range.
Simple example: 10 pellets, at all hitting each pellet does 10 damage - so 100hp damage
At 9 pellets hit, each pellet does 9 damage - so 81hp damage (and not 90), etc. etc. This is already 20% difference.
Problem with shottie is its OHK potential combined with very certain 2 hits deaths. In the new system, If you don’t manage to land perfect shots, you might need more than 2 hits to kill the opponent, reducing the frustrating effect people have with shotty, while still maintaining a decent skill gap.
I welcome other solutions as well, but I’m all behind Inferno as far as shotguns skill ceiling being off-base by comparison to most of the other weapons.
[/quote]
power-dependance of pellets damage works properly in favour of aim and skill only in combination with pellet patterns
centered for singlebarrel
i am not sure if we have a center-weighted pattern.
[quote=“Szakalot;7446”][quote=“Glottis-3D;7413”]
Not sure if you got what I was meaning on the shotguns. The question is how can we create
and i think that quadratic as a function is too strong. something less power than two seems more fair.[/quote]
That’s what I got from it too, thinking quadratic is exclusively y=x^2.
But it could very well be anything between ^1-2 […][/quote]
I think we’d be better off with not having x^2, x^(1/2) looks pretty nice, or a log(x), something with a gradient of -kx^(negative fraction) could work…
[quote=“Glottis-3D;7466”][quote=“Szakalot;7446”][quote=“Glottis-3D;7413”]
Not sure if you got what I was meaning on the shotguns. The question is how can we create
and i think that quadratic as a function is too strong. something less power than two seems more fair.[/quote]
That’s what I got from it too, thinking quadratic is exclusively y=x^2.
But it could very well be anything between ^1-2; so the numbers themselves can be easily adjusted. Point is to rewards juicy full-pellet hits, and limit effectiveness of shotties at anything else. This will push the shotgun towards its close combat corner, while still allowing it to bite people a bit at mid range.
Simple example: 10 pellets, at all hitting each pellet does 10 damage - so 100hp damage
At 9 pellets hit, each pellet does 9 damage - so 81hp damage (and not 90), etc. etc. This is already 20% difference.
Problem with shottie is its OHK potential combined with very certain 2 hits deaths. In the new system, If you don’t manage to land perfect shots, you might need more than 2 hits to kill the opponent, reducing the frustrating effect people have with shotty, while still maintaining a decent skill gap.
I welcome other solutions as well, but I’m all behind Inferno as far as shotguns skill ceiling being off-base by comparison to most of the other weapons.
[/quote]
power-dependance of pellets damage works properly in favour of aim and skill only in combination with pellet patterns
centered for singlebarrel
i am not sure if we have a center-weighted pattern.
[/quote]
nice pic, but without explanation means nothing. To me it looks like 28" barrel and #7 shot fairly close range, we don’t use those things we got 18" barrel and 0000
[quote=“Nail;7631”]
nice pic, but without explanation means nothing. To me it looks like 28" barrel and #7 shot fairly close range, we don’t use those things we got 18" barrel and 0000[/quote]
with this pic i just wanted to point out that shots are statistically center-weighted (pellets are more dense near the center). and i think we need this in all weapons especially in shotguns.