Do you fear the Mercs?

(PixelTwitch) #1

Serious question…

When I am playing Dirty Bomb, no matter what Merc I am currently using, I never fear any of the other Mercs. I never feel like I am at a disadvantage or that I should be careful. There are a couple of examples where this is not necessarily the case obviously (normally vs a Rhino or a Vasseli). Overall however, I feel confident enough to run a Phoenix into a Thunder or a Bushwhacker into a Fagger, knowing its a fair fight…

This is the problem…
During Dirty Bombs both recent and old marketing, Splash Damage pushed the idea of Mercs being equally viable but of differing strengths. This is something I feel has not really made it into the current game. Now I do understand that it really depends on the skill of the players but even with players I consider around my level the same thing happens. I consider Inferno, Spookify and Voshy to be the people currently playing the most that I would consider the closest to my skill level. So it would be interesting to see if they feel the same about the current Merc balance.

Now, one of the reasons I do not think this has been mentioned much is because I think people actually like the idea of having a decent shot vs any Merc as any Merc. Whist part of me agrees with this I think it is actually adding to the issue of Mercs not really feeling all that defined/refined. I should feel stronger as a Fragger or a Thunder than I would do with a Phoenix or a Bushwhacker but right now that is simply not the case. I also guess its been ignored because I assume “echo” is pointing to it not really being a problem. Where I would agree with this is when fighting people of a lower skill level. It then simply comes down to the amount of damage and bullets you can put down range. This will likely result in a higher kill per min and K/D on the more kill focused Mercs.

Whist this does come down to basic balance in some ways, I do feel that one of the over powering reasons for this being the case is down to performance and game consistency. I feel that most of the time it comes down to who has the most reliable feeling game rather then Merc or minor differences in skill. This also seems to have a rather big effect on the frustration I feel in game. Even thought I feel just as confident with a less optimal class vs a Fragger or Thunder, when I play as a Fragger or Thunder I get frustrated when killed by Mercs that should be weaker than the ones I am using…

So yea, just wanted to get a talk going on this subject as I have not really seen one on the forums so far (since I joined the game at any rate.)

(INF3RN0) #2

I’d say most of the “fear” does come from the player, if you want to call it that. Although I find it pretty easy to be well rounded in DB, there are some cases where I might be more cautious depending on the player+merc. It used to be more so when certain mercs were simply imba non-counterable. I don’t necessarily think it’s a bad thing to feel as though you can take on any situation, but I do think that the skill sets required to play each merc equally well and the extent of the strategy involved in countering other mercs needs a lot more depth and variation. If we eventually see abilities become more robust and all the other stuff that’s come up on that topic I think it would do a lot. Of course the ongoing issue being that nothing significant has actually developed with the meta for a long time now and most of the same things are still problematic even with the constant ‘tweaking’.

(Glottis-3D) #3

nope, if there is no Bitey on the server. not fearing anyone :smiley:

agree on this as a gameplay fail.
but you gotta have double the TTK, in order to make the difference in mercs on the battlefield.*

*with equally skilled players ofc
and in order to test that, we need a small duel map. and i’ve beed asking for it for ages. and only thing i get is - ‘we want mercs to be tested in our awsome maps!’
instead of getting real fighting info on who is stronger and how much.

(INF3RN0) #4

All I know is that west coast ping scares people :wink:.

(Voshy) #5

Couldn’t disagree more, with players of equal skill using some different mercs, it’s not even close to a fair fight.
What you want apparently is that even a complete noob playing thunder should win a duel against phoenix with skill.

I think the difference in strenght between mercs in a direct head-to-head combat is maybe even too much at the moment in some cases. It doesn’t seem so now for you maybe, because playing the pubs as one of the better players you don’t fear any merc. But in a competitive 5on5, with current balance… It’s already too much for my taste.

p.s. Reading trough most of your posts I think you should really try playing smite. That game probably is everything you want this game to be. First person LoL :wink:

(spookify) #6

I am not scared of any class…

The only class I really like is Val because he hasent been nerfed…

Val is my fail safe when performance on the server goes. (Both Frame lag or Ping Related)

When I am Fragger or Thunder and I get rolled by a Saw I am like WTF! So then I just go back to Saw and roll headshots…

When I see a phoenix I am thinking there is no way I should die using any class…

I have been super pissed off lately because of performance… It doesnt feel like I am aiming anymore… More just throwing bullets down range so I really cant speak on this subject anymore…

(spookify) #7

[QUOTE=Voshy;512344]Couldn’t disagree more, with players of equal skill using some different mercs, it’s not even close to a fair fight.
What you want apparently is that even a complete noob playing thunder should win a duel against phoenix with skill.

I think the difference in strenght between mercs in a direct head-to-head combat is maybe even too much at the moment in some cases. It doesn’t seem so now for you maybe, because playing the pubs as one of the better players you don’t fear any merc. But in a competitive 5on5, with current balance… It’s already too much for my taste.

p.s. Reading trough most of your posts I think you should really try playing smite. That game probably is everything you want this game to be. First person LoL ;)[/QUOTE]

But then you throw ping in there…

major feelings of the game are taking out…
Hit Reg - Hit Feedback - Slight Movement warps…

Right now I feel that anyone with a few weeks of playing can kill anyone… yes there are some class benefits but this current game even a noob can kill the best player 1 v 1… The game feels like luck right now…

I dont know how many times I have thrown my mouse and been like WTF!!!

There’s so many WTF moments in this game…

(tokamak) #8

As long as 1v1 combat balance is a requirement we’ll never be able to explore all the other abilities a merc can have.

I think seeing a phoenix should scare me (depending on what merc I’m playing). Not because he’s going to kill me, he might not even be able to put a single dent in me. But a merc like that should be able to instil a fear in you because he might be able to keep a team going indefinitely through his healing support.

That’s why I advocate to let go of this 1v1 nonsense. 1v1 matters if that’s the mercs specialisation. Combat is only relevant when that’s part of the merc’s priority, which should only be one of the many categories that mercs can occupy.

(prophett) #9

Depends on the player, even then i’ll try to take them on. I guess my answer is no.

(Voshy) #10

[QUOTE=tokamak;512351]As long as 1v1 combat balance is a requirement we’ll never be able to explore all the other abilities a merc can have.

I think seeing a phoenix should scare me (depending on what merc I’m playing). Not because he’s going to kill me, he might not even be able to put a single dent in me. But a merc like that should be able to instil a fear in you because he might be able to keep a team going indefinitely through his healing support.

That’s why I advocate to let go of this 1v1 nonsense. 1v1 matters if that’s the mercs specialisation. Combat is only relevant when that’s part of the merc’s priority, which should only be one of the many categories that mercs can occupy.[/QUOTE]

I agree about the part about having to fear phoenix and you don’t atm. But that is a whole other story about how medics are just bad even at doing what they
are here to do because many reasons. That wasnt the topic here.

On the other hand, this is a first person SHOOTER. And I want it to be that, together with some other people i hope. Not a fist person mine plater, or first person turret deployer. Not even a first person objective completer or first person supporter. Combat is not only relevant when it’s a part of a mercs priority man, it’s relevant because that is the MAIN PART of playing an FPS game. Adding features that add to teamplay and class diversity is a nice bonus, but the moment combat stops being the most important thing for every aspect of the game, everything goes to crap and we just get a first person MOBA or whatever. Some people really want that it seems, but I am still convinced that can’t mix in any way with a competitive FPS that we were promised.

So, as much as I want the game to have more depth than pure aim tracking skill (not in the same way SD is atm sadly), saying 1on1 doesn’t matter in a competitive FPS game is just wrong. And it can’t end well if its taken as a real argument.

(Glottis-3D) #11

[QUOTE=Voshy;512355]I agree about the part about having to fear phoenix and you don’t atm. But that is a whole other story about how medics are just bad even at doing what they
are here to do because many reasons. That wasnt the topic here.

On the other hand, this is a first person SHOOTER. And I want it to be that, together with some other people i hope. Not a fist person mine plater, or first person turret deployer. Not even a first person objective completer or first person supporter. Combat is not only relevant when it’s a part of a mercs priority man, it’s relevant because that is the MAIN PART of playing an FPS game. Adding features that add to teamplay and class diversity is a nice bonus, but the moment combat stops being the most important thing for every aspect of the game, everything goes to crap and we just get a first person MOBA or whatever. Some people really want that it seems, but I am still convinced that can’t mix in any way with a competitive FPS that we were promised.

So, as much as I want the game to have more depth than pure aim tracking skill (not in the same way SD is atm sadly), saying 1on1 doesn’t matter in a competitive FPS game is just wrong. And it can’t end well if its taken as a real argument.[/QUOTE]
they do want to please both - shooters and non-shooters.
i’d say that they have not yet achived that goal.

the way to please both is to solve their problems separatedly.
weapons should be balanced in one pool. and abilities - in another pool.

for example in etqw there was a map where you needed to deliver 3 objects by insta-touch. this mostly was about flying on icarus+parachuting down+strafejumping (i.e. not a single shot) and that could be countered with lasermines, if they were properly situated they prevented instadelivery.

(Violator) #12

A bit offtopic, as an oldschool Q2/ET player I don’t have much fear which usually gets me killed in DB :D. I find the whole continually having to find cover a bit counter-intuitive to my oldskool playing style and takes a bit of getting used to.

OT though, its more the player. Spook or Inferno with a sniper for instance I will try and avoid if poss :). I thought it was down to ping at first but Spookify still pwns on the US servers with the damn thing, after some testing the HPB prediction issues don’t seem to be much of a problem now, bar the odd ‘corner-kill’.

Generally though I find the regular weapons so similar that a merc-type will not be a deterrent to a 1-on-1, e.g. as Vassili I’m just as happy to go up front with the MP as Thunder, which doesn’t really sit right. In ET the sten was way underpowered compared to the Thompson / MP40 but very situational, I don’t get that feeling on the whole with the weapons in DB with the exception of Rhino’s chaingun perhaps or Vassili’s sniper rifle.

(tokamak) #13

They are related though. If a merc has powerful abilities on top of being scary in combat then that’s what you’d call a ‘broken’ merc because there would be no reason to play that one.

If all mercs have powerful abilities and scary combat power then there’s no real diversity in the type of roles they can have. You need combat specialists and you need all kinds of support specialists to create that dynamic.

(Erkin31) #14

This is the problem…

No, this is not a problem !

This is one thing that I always liked in ET / ETQW. You can play engineer, medic or solider, you are always on an equal footing.

I hate games like TF2, where when you play medics you are disadvantaged.
This is the syndrom of the… I’m not sure about the translation, in french we say “c’est joué d’avance”. According to word reference is “already won the first round” , but I find that is not the same meaning.
Anyway, it’s when you meet an adversary and you know that you have already lost, only because the game design is like this.
The same thing happens in BF when you meet a vehicule (the vehicules of ETQW was way more balanced, you could even finish a tank with a pistol/blaster !).

(Voshy) #15

[QUOTE=Glottis-3D;512356]they do want to please both - shooters and non-shooters.
[/QUOTE]
And that is probably the biggest problem. Something similar to that is the reason why last 2 games failed to live up to their potential, and it’s happening again. Every time it’s a different thing they try to squeeze in “for wider audience”, but sadly the end result will be the same if they stick to it.

[QUOTE=Erkin31;512379]No, this is not a problem !

This is one thing that I always liked in ET / ETQW. You can play engineer, medic or solider, you are always on an equal footing.

I hate games like TF2, where when you play medics you are disadvantaged.
This is the syndrom of the… I’m not sure about the translation, in french we say “c’est joué d’avance”. According to word reference is “already won the first round” , but I find that is not the same meaning.
Anyway, it’s when you meet an adversary and you know that you have already lost, only because the game design is like this.
The same thing happens in BF when you meet a vehicule (the vehicules of ETQW was way more balanced, you could even finish a tank with a pistol/blaster !).[/QUOTE]

I agree with this, but I know it won’t happen in this game. Although it makes no sense that now everyone can do everything (object wise) but are still so different by firepower.

(tokamak) #16

There’s always Q live instagib for everyone who wants a level playing field. It’s free and there’s absolutely nothing to add or change to improve that playstyle. It’s the pure essence of a permanently fair shooter.

//youtu.be/l3u3pBEHyWc

(onYn) #17

It depends much on which kind of genre we want to adress with this topic.

When talking about FPS, I feel like the 1v1 strenghts and weaknesses should basically depend on health/weapon dmg. Obviously tactical positions for different weapons as well as abilities should have some significance as well. But for the most part I see abilities more team oriented. They should obviously give you tactical advantages you can use alone like depending on the position you stand at, and also the game progression you are in (if you personally want to play rather save or offensive, depending on how much time you have left). But also allow tactical team compositions where you need to decide between not only factors like security but also a setup that gives you vision but smaller weapon power, or just some more rambo type setup focusing more on raw fire power.

Any kind of 1v1 strengths then pure HP/weapon dmg discrepancy would require us to think about this more like a moba - what I personally don´t want. In my eyes this game is just too far away for such a thing, unless we get some further customization abilities in game, giving the characters some development during the game as well as possible adjustments, that allow you to actually allows multiple ways of countering the enemy throughout the game. Otherwise I think this could become a one sided ability spam quiet quickly.

So my thoughts about abilities/mercs that are more significant in a 1v1 scenario is really conservative. I can understand the frustration when you get simply outgunned - even tho you play a class that is actually suited to be quiet dominant in that regard. But honestly right now you can´t even tell if you really got outgunned, or if it was someone shooting you at the same time. Also you maybe just face someone who is playing way better then you - and it doesn´t matter what kind of skill ceiling of the important skills is existent, there will be allways better and worse players. Even if you are good, there will be always someone that will be almost twice as good as you are.

In the end, let me think about how a fragger that actually really is the beast that you would think he should be in 1v1. He can do every objective, he wins every 1v1 not taking any aim skill discrepancy into account and can pick up corpeses as well :D. Everyone would play fragger 24/7. I know that character limitation would solve this to a certain extent, but if other mercs were made following this scheme you would end up with the problem that could not be solved that easily anymore. You actually would need to do major game changes, that I don´t expect to be even close to realistic.

(Destroy666) #18

I agree with Erkin31, mercs equality/balance is actually a big advantage. Nothing is way too overpowered or underpowered so you can freely choose to play with your favorite merc. I wouldn’t waste this ‘feature’ under any circumstances.

The only thing I don’t like is the boring augment system, which is nearly the same for everyone and provides useless stuff like reduced falling damage (no map has high places which would make it relevant…). In my opinion they should be more ability-based, for example Thunder could get longer stun time for his grenades, Proxy one additional mine, etc.

(tokamak) #19

Nobody is advocating different tiers of mercs. All mercs should be equally useful. What varies is the ways they’re useful and the situations that their abilities apply in.

This game is a team-based objective shooter. That’s a great thing because this is the type of FPS that reaches the deepest and most fulfilling gameplay conflicts. It means that having a strategy, being able to improvise and preferably in harmony with your whole team is what counts.

Everything else is just a distraction. 1v1 tapdance stand-offs are great for measuring your hand/mouse e-peen against someone else but in the end it’s a really superficial exertion. It could be replicated in a browser-based flash game so to speak.

It doesn’t hurt having a couple of mercs that excel at headshot tap-dancing but please let that be one of the myriad ways in which a player can trump the other team.

(Voshy) #20

you missed he point with instagib, but still, if it was teambsed objective game with classes, i would go and play it :slight_smile:

And in your idea of this game, people don’t shoot at each other, they go around building and repairing stuff. Awesome.