Dirty Wars 1: The Javelin Menace.

[woodchip]

ITT: guy attempts to argue that Jav isn’t OP because “wasting your rocket on 1 guy” is bad strategy.

The premise of which is Jav’s 30 sec CD as a fire support is an auto kill at minimum, multikill at best. See the problem yet?

[GatoCommodore]

@woodchip said:
ITT: guy attempts to argue that Jav isn’t OP because “wasting your rocket on 1 guy” is bad strategy.

The premise of which is Jav’s 30 sec CD as a fire support is an auto kill at minimum, multikill at best. See the problem yet?

ITT: guy attempts to argue that arty isn’t OP because “wasting your Artillery strike on 1 guy” is bad strategy

The premise of which is arty’s 20 sec CD as a fire support is an auto kill at minimum, multikill at best. See the problem yet?

[watsyurdeal]

@GatoCommodore said:

@woodchip said:
ITT: guy attempts to argue that Jav isn’t OP because “wasting your rocket on 1 guy” is bad strategy.

The premise of which is Jav’s 30 sec CD as a fire support is an auto kill at minimum, multikill at best. See the problem yet?

ITT: guy attempts to argue that arty isn’t OP because “wasting your Artillery strike on 1 guy” is bad strategy

The premise of which is arty’s 20 sec CD as a fire support is an auto kill at minimum, multikill at best. See the problem yet?

[TheFpsPro27]

@GatoCommodore said:
lemme give you example in DB

Stoker was nerfed back in the days because the molotov is seen as cheese kill by throwing it when stoker is nearly dead and easily kill enemies in that radius

fast forward to 2017
people ask for stoker buff and they got it. It just got back to where it starts.

people do learn.
I bet if a new merch that instantly kills everyone on the map every 10 seconds with nukes was released, the people who relies on an op merch (javelin mains) would still say ‘’ It is not op. People just hate new merchs because they don’t know how to plat against them…"

When stoker, thunder, turtle, phonix, redeye, aimee and phantom were first released i even thought that they needed a buff. But now i say Javelin needs a nerf.

As javelin mains said some people just call new merchs op because they dont know how to play against them, but this time this new merch really is op. Only ones defending her are javelin mains who want to farm free credits and xp with her.

[GatoCommodore]

@TheFpsPro27 said:

@GatoCommodore said:
lemme give you example in DB

Stoker was nerfed back in the days because the molotov is seen as cheese kill by throwing it when stoker is nearly dead and easily kill enemies in that radius

fast forward to 2017
people ask for stoker buff and they got it. It just got back to where it starts.

people do learn.
I bet if a new merch that instantly kills everyone on the map every 10 seconds with nukes was released, the people who relies on an op merch (javelin mains) would still say ‘’ It is not op. People just hate new merchs because they don’t know how to plat against them…"

When stoker, thunder, turtle, phonix, redeye, aimee and phantom were first released i even thought that they needed a buff. But now i say Javelin needs a nerf.

As javelin mains said some people just call new merchs op because they dont know how to play against them, but this time this new merch really is op. Only ones defending her are javelin mains who want to farm free credits and xp with her.

show me a montage of javelin killing 7 player every 25 second

[bgyoshi]

@scrub_lord said:

Funny how you mention my way of using her ability is being a detriment to the team, meanwhile your last post was talking about how everyone is learning to not clump up anymore while playing against Javs. If people are never grouping up, then do you just sit on your ability for 3 minutes at a time to finally get a multikill? Seems like a less effective way to use her imo.

Jav rockets are better used for turtle shield busting, breaking Aura station positioning, (currently) blowing up secondary objectives faster than C4, and busting enemy clumping. If you’ve been throwing away your rocket every single time you see that ‘top tier badass kill em all’ pro, then you won’t have it available when your team desperately needs it to break enemy positioning.

So yeah, sometimes having it on hold for 3 minutes happens. Ideally you’ll use map awareness to lure people or groups around corners for a kill in a pinch, but you should be saving that rocket to bust defenses. If you’re wasting it on a single kill every 30 seconds, you’re being the exact TDM K/D noob that everyone complains about. PTFO and use your abilities to help YOUR TEAM. Break enemy positions, punish them for clumping, and help your team move forward. You’re not going to blowout an Aura station and get an Aura kill + 1 and then have your entire team wiped by the one guy on the top of the scoreboard.

And yes, you can do it with a Fragger. You only need to cook a nade for 1 second before you can throw it a good distance and have it blow up before the enemy can react. Especially at Aura stations. That means anyone paying attention to the Fragger will have about one second to get out of the way, just like with Jav. The only difference is Fragger has 150 HP to survive with, vs. Jav’s 120 HP that means she’s almost certainly dead.

ITT: guy attempts to argue that Fragger isn’t OP because “wasting your nade on 1 guy” is bad strategy.

The premise of which is Fragger’s 15 sec CD as an assault is an auto kill at minimum, multikill at best. See the problem yet?

[woodchip]

Comparing Fragger’s nade to Javelin without noticing that the rocket is way more consistent and way harder to dodge makes it not worth discussing. If you don’t see that, and understand that the consistency and lack of counterplay is the problem, then you’re not going to have anything else useful to say.

Comparing the rocket to Arty’s calldown, especially in terms of assassinating a single top player… is something else entirely.

[bgyoshi]

@woodchip said:

Comparing Fragger’s nade to Javelin without noticing that the rocket is way more consistent and way harder to dodge makes it not worth discussing. If you don’t see that, and understand that the consistency and lack of counterplay is the problem, then you’re not going to have anything else useful to say.

And if you refuse to see that counterplay exists and haven’t watched the 10000 death cams of Javelins firing rockets into their own faces then you’re not going to have anything else useful to say.

Jav is easily countered and she’s not game breaking in the slightest. Adapt.

Yes, you’re right, she crushes your old “rush in as a pack/hide behind a wall/hide in the Aura heal” strategy. Find a new one. Most of the teams I play with and against already have.

[woodchip]

Sry fam, shooting the rocket out of the sky or out of Javelin’s hands is not realistic counterplay. It’s something that happens maybe one time out of 5. IF she bothers to channel it in line of sight, which is almost always a mistake. Even if the charge time were audible it still wouldn’t be realistic. Just like shooting the frag nade has little to do with Fragger’s balance. Rocket is easier to blow up than the nade, but it’s still mostly luck.

[TheFpsPro27]

@bgyoshi said:

And if you refuse to see that counterplay exists and haven’t watched the 10000 death cams of Javelins firing rockets into their own faces then you’re not going to have anything else useful to say.

Jav is easily countered and she’s not game breaking in the slightest. Adapt.

Yes, you’re right, she crushes your old “rush in as a pack/hide behind a wall/hide in the Aura heal” strategy. Find a new one. Most of the teams I play with and against already have.

Just like the guy at the comment above said, shooting the rocket is not a realistic counter. Unless a javelin stays completely still you cant intentionally shoot the rocket, you can only randomly fire hoping a bullet will accidently hit the rocket. You need the reaction time and accuracy of an aim bot to shoot a rocket.

Thismgame is focused on objectives and to do the objective you either need to wipe the other team with javelin or use that “rush in as a pack” strategy.

No other merch can get multikills in 1 second only with 1 button. Against fragger you have 3 seconds, against other fire supports you only need to shoot them(they flinch a lot while using their abilitiesand you get more than 1 seconds), nader’s and flecher’s bombs travel very slowly, take a long time to explode and deal a very low damage without a direct hit.

There is at least 1 simple counter against every merchs ability except for the rocket. The rocket has no weakness and has only 30 second cooldown(as short as the spawn time).

I also played with javelin (my aim is terrible) and i easyly get approximately 60/10 k/d everytime (i can only get 35/20 k/d when i try hard with fragger) because her rocket requires no aiming and timing(simply it is op). If you really don’t have enough skill to get at least 1 kill with 99% of the rockets, then you can’t use any other merch.

[TheFpsPro27]

@scrub_lord said:
Tbh it would be better to make Javelin useless than to keep her in her current state.

A broken merc is more of an issue than a useless one. I’m not saying they shouldn’t try to balance her, but being too careful with nerfs and waiting too long won’t be good for the game.

If you think it is just going to be bad for the first week with everyone playing her, I guarantee you everyone will continue to main her as long as she stays powerful yet easy to play.

Thank god they don’t allow new mercs in ranked. She would be extra cancerous in there, able to erase the medics with the click of a button.

Your comment is the most logical comment i have ever seen since javelin was released.

[GatoCommodore]

@TheFpsPro27 said:

@bgyoshi said:

And if you refuse to see that counterplay exists and haven’t watched the 10000 death cams of Javelins firing rockets into their own faces then you’re not going to have anything else useful to say.

Jav is easily countered and she’s not game breaking in the slightest. Adapt.

Yes, you’re right, she crushes your old “rush in as a pack/hide behind a wall/hide in the Aura heal” strategy. Find a new one. Most of the teams I play with and against already have.

Just like the guy at the comment above said, shooting the rocket is not a realistic counter. Unless a javelin stays completely still you cant intentionally shoot the rocket, you can only randomly fire hoping a bullet will accidently hit the rocket. You need the reaction time and accuracy of an aim bot to shoot a rocket.

Thismgame is focused on objectives and to do the objective you either need to wipe the other team with javelin or use that “rush in as a pack” strategy.

No other merch can get multikills in 1 second only with 1 button. Against fragger you have >3 seconds, against other fire supports you only need to shoot them(they flinch a lot while >using their abilitiesand you get more than 1 seconds), nader’s and flecher’s bombs travel >very slowly, take a long time to explode and deal a very low damage without a direct hit.

lemme ask you something

im giving you a background
all of the fire support doesnt need direct line of sight (arty, kira, skyhammer, stoker)
the longest channel time is held by kira and shortest is arty.

which of current available fire support cant do a multi-kills in 1 second only with 1 button?
(hint: not arty, not kira, not skyhammer, not javelin, not stoker)

do you know which one of the fire support abilities can be neutralized after deployment?
(hint: not arty, not kira, not skyhammer)

also you cant flinch them if they call the strike from behind the wall ja?

can you counter kira laser if shes controlling it from a safe position?
can you counter skyhammer marker?
can you counter arty strike if arty is calling it from safe position?

every fire support can do multi-kills with one button
just because proxy mine monkey need to throw and shoot, doesnt mean specialist area deniers should be hard to play.

[woodchip]

Gato the answer is you absolutely can counterplay everything on that list. Sometimes skyhammer predicts movement 5 seconds in advance and blows you up with a marker on the other side of a wall, sometimes Kira is able to set up the lazer behind you while covered so you don’t see it and aren’t able to shoot her.

But those situations are pretty rare, and they depend on prediction and map knowledge. And they can still be counterplayed: someone can call out the air marker, or the kira lazer, or shoot kira dead. Very few if any spots on a map where Kira can get a good lazer from total safety.

It’s not that the abilities shouldn’t be powerful or lethal or able to get multikills. The thing at issue is counterplay. The sense that “well, I blew up, but if I had done X differently I would’ve lived.” Its counterplay or lack thereof, not raw power, that makes things frustrating to play against and bad for the game.

The rocket doesn’t have enough counterplay. It fires too fast with too little warning for you to do anything about it in many situations. No other fire support ability is like that. Not even Fragger is like that, although he is closer. They could put a 60 second CD on it and it would still be toxic, even though at 60 sec Javelin would be unplayably weak in competitive play.

It’s hard to get frustrated by Kira’s lazer. While you wait to respawn you know that if you had noticed the warning beams or paid better attention to the kira across the map you might’ve lived. The keyword there is the warning beams: without them, Kira would instantly become toxic. She wouldn’t be OP in competitive, but she’d still be toxic. Different concepts. Javelin is both OP and Toxic, which is why she is going to be nerfed quickly, almost certainly with an eye to adding counterplay to her rocket.

Counterplay for everything. Every lethal ability in DB is heavily telegraphed for this exact reason. Except the rocket, which is a virtually inescapable death whenever Javelin has a height advantage. But isn’t Fragger’s nade an inescapable death? Only if he predicts your movement out of line of sight, you move the way he thinks you are going to move, and then he throws an accurate and precisely timed grenade from out of cover. The counterplay is not moving predictably. Not to say that always works, but the knowledge that if you had moved differently = different outcome helps mitigate the frustration. But as it was, Fragger’s nade was already one of the most powerful and sometimes frustrating mechanics in the game.

Rocket is basically a fragger nade without the counterplay of the 3 second charge. And is also guided. The only real counterplay is to long jump away, but a Javelin with a height advantage will kill you anyway. If you long jump a rocket coming at you without height advantage, you still probably lose 80% of your HP thanks to the guiding. You know I’m right, because when you think on all the times you shot a rocket from atop the medbay in underground etc., you know you scored a kill almost literally every shot. It has to change.

[GatoCommodore]

@woodchip said:
Gato the answer is you absolutely can counterplay everything on that list. Sometimes skyhammer predicts movement 5 seconds in advance and blows you up with a marker on the other side of a wall, sometimes Kira is able to set up the lazer behind you while covered so you don’t see it and aren’t able to shoot her.

But those situations are pretty rare, and they depend on prediction and map knowledge. And they can still be counterplayed: someone can call out the air marker, or the kira lazer, or shoot kira dead. Very few if any spots on a map where Kira can get a good lazer from total safety.

It’s not that the abilities shouldn’t be powerful or lethal or able to get multikills. The thing at issue is counterplay. The sense that “well, I blew up, but if I had done X differently I would’ve lived.” Its counterplay or lack thereof, not raw power, that makes things frustrating to play against and bad for the game.

The rocket doesn’t have enough counterplay. It fires too fast with too little warning for you to do anything about it in many situations. No other fire support ability is like that. Not even Fragger is like that, although he is closer. They could put a 60 second CD on it and it would still be toxic, even though at 60 sec Javelin would be unplayably weak in competitive play.

It’s hard to get frustrated by Kira’s lazer. While you wait to respawn you know that if you had noticed the warning beams or paid better attention to the kira across the map you might’ve lived. The keyword there is the warning beams: without them, Kira would instantly become toxic. She wouldn’t be OP in competitive, but she’d still be toxic. Different concepts. Javelin is both OP and Toxic, which is why she is going to be nerfed quickly, almost certainly with an eye to adding counterplay to her rocket.

Counterplay for everything. Every lethal ability in DB is heavily telegraphed for this exact reason. Except the rocket, which is a virtually inescapable death whenever Javelin has a height advantage. But isn’t Fragger’s nade an inescapable death? Only if he predicts your movement out of line of sight, you move the way he thinks you are going to move, and then he throws an accurate and precisely timed grenade from out of cover. The counterplay is not moving predictably. Not to say that always works, but the knowledge that if you had moved differently = different outcome helps mitigate the frustration. But as it was, Fragger’s nade was already one of the most powerful and sometimes frustrating mechanics in the game.

Rocket is basically a fragger nade without the counterplay of the 3 second charge. And is also guided. The only real counterplay is to long jump away, but a Javelin with a height advantage will kill you anyway. If you long jump a rocket coming at you without height advantage, you still probably lose 80% of your HP thanks to the guiding. It has to change.

yeah i agree theres no cue on where javelin might shot her rocket (unlike arty, skyhammer, kira) Stoker doesnt have a cue or channeling too.

Rocket is basically a fragger nade without the counterplay of the 3 second charge. And is also guided. The only real counterplay is to long jump away, but a Javelin with a height advantage will kill you anyway. If you long jump a rocket coming at you without height advantage, you still probably lose 80% of your HP thanks to the guiding. It has to change.

fragger getting behind cover is pretty much his only counter, the 3 second cook is negligible if fragger already know where the enemies are (prediction/ spotting)

fragger can tank the shots if he were to be charged by enemy while javelin cant do it as good as fragger (120hp arent much compared to 140hp)

also, DB maps are full of items and walls that you can paint with laser to drop a strike underneath it from a safe places. Its not rare to get multi kills in open maps like trainyard or chapel hell, even dominate in it. Old dome 2nd objective you can drop laser or artillery on a pylon from attacker spawn, in chapel last objective you can drop artillery or laser from attacker spawn point to the objective building.

but, as you said before, it does require a good observation and map knowledge.
ive met high levels that play javelin missile by lobbing it over an obstacle or curving it around the corner.

if they were to nerf javelin missile damage, her ability will be pretty weak compared to the rest of the firesupport roster which most have 550 dps while javelin only has 400 right now.

i believe the only way to nerf javelin is giving her cue when she shot the rocket and laser so enemies and javelin can see where her rocket will fly to.

[bgyoshi]

Y’all play again some ridiculously weak Fraggers if you think Fragger nades are heavily telegraphed or can be avoided. Yeah I can get out of the way of a crap Fragger, but any good Fragger throws it so that it explodes the moment it gets close enough. None of then cook a nade in plain sight, and most of the time they toss it the moment they become visible specifically so you can’t get out of the way.

Y’all also don’t play Kira if you think she can’t laser from total safety on every map, with the sole exception of Underground. In fact, I very frequently would use the tops of walls and buildings behind the enemy so they couldn’t see the targeting laser and then just drive it all over them from behind. It’s really easy to hide and trivial to accurately target around from behind cover.

The fact that you have to have line of sight for rockets, alone, is a pretty huge nerf in itself. Driving it over a wall or around a corner is much harder than driving a laser over a wall.

@TheFpsPro27 said:

I also played with javelin (my aim is terrible) and i easyly get approximately 60/10 k/d everytime (i can only get 35/20 k/d when i try hard with fragger) because her rocket requires no aiming and timing(simply it is op). If you really don’t have enough skill to get at least 1 kill with 99% of the rockets, then you can’t use any other merch.

lmfao even if I believed you, I was right in that you’re that TDM guy that nobody wants on their team because you run off on your own and don’t help the team.

I cheese far more explosive kills with nades because they can be bounced off walls and around corners without me ever needing to put myself in a position to be shot at. I’m not going to pretend to be a 6/1 KDR god especially since I actually do objectives and body block for medics and obj specialists, but pulling 3/1 on any Objective mode map as Fragger is far too easy. 150 HP makes it hard to lose firefights even with the K121, and tossing unavoidable nades from safety is trivial once you learn the cook timing.

[GatoCommodore]

@bgyoshi like i said, the cook is negligible if fragger knows how to predict and have good map knowledge

[anon41468043]

Passive ammo needs to be changed.

Nobody ties Queen Nader’s score with half the amount of effort. Nobody.

[Sorotia]

@bgyoshi said:

@scrub_lord said:
Tbh it would be better to make Javelin useless than to keep her in her current state.

A broken merc is more of an issue than a useless one. I’m not saying they shouldn’t try to balance her, but being too careful with nerfs and waiting too long won’t be good for the game.

If you think it is just going to be bad for the first week with everyone playing her, I guarantee you everyone will continue to main her as long as she stays powerful yet easy to play.

Thank god they don’t allow new mercs in ranked. She would be extra cancerous in there, able to erase the medics with the click of a button.

It hasn’t even been a full week and I’ve already noticed a large drop in her overall performance. Javs aren’t at the top nearly as consistently as they were before, and medics are back up there once again. It’s getting slightly harder every day to find double/triple kills with the rocket and there’s a lot more people charging in on Javs.

People are learning

Some are, I killed 4 people standing together and they call me OP…I guess common sense is pretty OP to some people.

[GatoCommodore]

@Sorotia said:

@bgyoshi said:

@scrub_lord said:
Tbh it would be better to make Javelin useless than to keep her in her current state.

A broken merc is more of an issue than a useless one. I’m not saying they shouldn’t try to balance her, but being too careful with nerfs and waiting too long won’t be good for the game.

If you think it is just going to be bad for the first week with everyone playing her, I guarantee you everyone will continue to main her as long as she stays powerful yet easy to play.

Thank god they don’t allow new mercs in ranked. She would be extra cancerous in there, able to erase the medics with the click of a button.

It hasn’t even been a full week and I’ve already noticed a large drop in her overall performance. Javs aren’t at the top nearly as consistently as they were before, and medics are back up there once again. It’s getting slightly harder every day to find double/triple kills with the rocket and there’s a lot more people charging in on Javs.

People are learning

Some are, I killed 4 people standing together and they call me OP…I guess common sense is pretty OP to some people.

i was playing on underground 2nd stage
the enemies are clumped-up on the elevator exit, dropping health station and basically the perfect camp with the ammo near the elevator.

i got up to the ceilling and shoot a guided rocket while i fall down for TRICKSHOT

funny stuff, i only get 1kill instead of 3 because the health station and the 1st guy blocks the explosion entirely.

they tried it again, same place. This time i play stoker.
i do the same trick, falling down while throwing the molotov.

but this time i got all 3 because the flame cant get blocked by 1 body because i throw it on the ground and also killed the health station

i could say, stoker is still better on breaking up camps than javelin.

[Sorotia]

@GatoCommodore said:

@Sorotia said:

@bgyoshi said:

@scrub_lord said:
Tbh it would be better to make Javelin useless than to keep her in her current state.

A broken merc is more of an issue than a useless one. I’m not saying they shouldn’t try to balance her, but being too careful with nerfs and waiting too long won’t be good for the game.

If you think it is just going to be bad for the first week with everyone playing her, I guarantee you everyone will continue to main her as long as she stays powerful yet easy to play.

Thank god they don’t allow new mercs in ranked. She would be extra cancerous in there, able to erase the medics with the click of a button.

It hasn’t even been a full week and I’ve already noticed a large drop in her overall performance. Javs aren’t at the top nearly as consistently as they were before, and medics are back up there once again. It’s getting slightly harder every day to find double/triple kills with the rocket and there’s a lot more people charging in on Javs.

People are learning

Some are, I killed 4 people standing together and they call me OP…I guess common sense is pretty OP to some people.

i was playing on underground 2nd stage
the enemies are clumped-up on the elevator exit, dropping health station and basically the perfect camp with the ammo near the elevator.

i got up to the ceilling and shoot a guided rocket while i fall down for TRICKSHOT

funny stuff, i only get 1kill instead of 3 because the health station and the 1st guy blocks the explosion entirely.

they tried it again, same place. This time i play stoker.
i do the same trick, falling down while throwing the molotov.

but this time i got all 3 because the flame cant get blocked by 1 body because i throw it on the ground and also killed the health station

i could say, stoker is still better on breaking up camps than javelin.

But Stoker isn’t the new FOTM and he has already been nerfed to hell because people complained.

So even if he is more effective people will still complain…even though panic molly tosses can almost just as easily kill and if you die to it you’re likely to be gibbed as well.