DIRTY BOMB UPDATE: Version 20076

(OwNLY) #221

[QUOTE=INF3RN0;449822]I think the point here is that stuff like epic 5ks aren’t really as possible when you die so fast from anyone. The nice advantage of separating out the damage and lowering the RoF is that not only do you have the chance to react to an attack from whatever angle, but you can take out a whole team with superior aim/positioning more consistently.

This doesn’t mean running head on into a group of 5 people should be the goal, but more or less you shouldn’t be taken down to 10hp from foot shots when you run into a 1v2+ situation against less capable/reactive opponents.[/QUOTE]

If you increase the TTK, you get less and less multikills,
just because now enemys with low skill are able to shoot back and deal some damage just by chance.

Only in games like CS and CoD with very low TTK you get fast multikills very easy.
Even me, as a total beginner in CS:GO was able to get a 5 man multikill with one full auto M4 magazine in my first scrim.
Some luck, a bit of aim, lots of spray and a insanely low TTK…

Now, in DB, i have 35 rounds, with at least 4 bullets/kill. So for 5 man i would need 20 bullets.
-> need an accuracy of at least 57% with only Headshots to get 5 guys down in one mag.
By the time i was able shot 35 rounds with an accuracy of 57%,
the 5 enemys have shot alot of more rounds alot less accurate, since i have to be still alive to finish the last…
(60-135 bullets towards me, max. 7 hits Body or 3 hits Head to survive -> below 12% accuracy)

I conclude:

Low TTK means more multikills, but makes the game more random.
Even a guy with low HP can kill a guy with full Health since one lucky Headshot could be enough.

High TTK means a player with a tactical (better position, more health/firepower) and a personal (better movement/aim) advantage is more likely to win.
But you cannot fight several guys at the same time alone, since the advantage of more health and firepower is clearly on the side of your enemy.

(warbie) #222

Agreed. It’s the randomness and the luck element that comes with it that gets annoying. Add maps without a clear front line like we have in DB and things feel more CoD-like than I suspect most people here want. Not only does a higher ttk mean skill plays a greater part in encounters, but it also puts more emphasis on teamplay as teams will be up and running and together for longer. After being in the alpha for months and months I can think of very few if any situations where we had a good team drive going on - where we’re rolling forward with medics picking people up and trying to smash through a defence. It’s all bitty - people running around in all directions, being shot from behind, above, in the side …

(Ashog) #223

Then please rewatch the video Tokamak posted.

(Kendle) #224

Best post for several pages in this thread. :slight_smile:

I think it’s pretty clear SD are not going to go balls out for an ET:QW style gun-model. As a large number of people here are ET:QW players that’s obviously going to be a cause for concern. But we’ve argued too long about this IMO. No-one’s right or wrong, but the simple reality is the gun-play in DB as it currently stands, while it may receive the odd tweak or 2, is probably not going to change much from now on. The only thing I can say is get over it.

If you can get past that I think it’s time we started helping them develop the rest of the game. Maps, classes, objectives etc.

We still only have 4 maps + 1 in VIP, this game needs at least 3 - 5 more IMO. We still have issues with the classes, Soldier with C4, is that the right approach? We still have issues with class roles and interdependency, health regen and poor revive shield undermines the Medic? We still have issues with objectives, the carry-able mechanics in DB suck big time IMO, and there are no side-objectives or forward spawns (apart from 1 map).

It’s time for people to get over the fact DB isn’t <insert-favourite-game-here> 2 and do what we’re supposed to be here to do, help SD make a new game.

(rookie1) #225

[QUOTE=Kendle;449866]…
It’s time for people to get over the fact DB isn’t <insert-favourite-game-here> 2 and do what we’re supposed to be here to do, help SD make a new game.[/QUOTE] Nicely said :slight_smile:

(warbie) #226

It only took the odd tweak or two to dramatically change the gunplay in DB - I don’t think anything is quite fixed yet. Considering how many people here would like an increased ttk, it would at least make sense to try a few things and see how it goes. You never know, it might get a universal thumbs up.

(Samurai.) #227

I just feel the TTK discussions are so vague that nobody knows what anyone wants anymore and this mainly due to…

a) Misunderstanding TTK and communicating it with low/high/increase/decrease - people will say they want a low TTK (people die quickly) while describing a high TTK (people die slower).

b) the TTK varies between weapons, distances, player experiences (ping), classes and map environments so stating 1 value for TTK is pretty useless and impossible to communicate & form a discussion around.

c) People appear to have their own definition of TTK:

  • TTK is the minimum time it takes to kill someone, i.e pure headshots from the very first bullet which doesn’t happen regularly in all situations.
  • Other interpretations are the general length of typical firefights, i.e combination of HS’s and Bodyshots which is what all of us experience regularly in most situations.

If i was going to sum up what i have read/understood from the majority of players feedback in these forums and interpreted it from my perspective i would say the current message is:

[ul]
[li]TTK (pure headshots) is fine as it is, but the general length of typical firefights experienced (mix of Headshots and bodyshots) is too quick with many (but not all) of the weapons. [/li][/ul]
Therefore suggesting you reduce the body shot damage rates resulting in the same TTK as we have now (further rewarding tracking of the head) but an increased length of time for the most common firefights which involve HS’s & Bodyshot’s (punishing poorer aimers - giving them room to improve in DB).

(murka) #228

Right now it’s highly likely to get 3hs in a row and also to empty a clip with only one kill. I’d like to see a smaller deviation from the average TTK so that 3hs kills become rarer while killing 2 or 3 with one clip becomes easier.
For example the soldier mg(whichever one is the meatier op gun) very regularly gets 3hs with the first shots and that is faster than anyone can even react to it. Either with luck or skill if you manage to fire the first in the head, the high rof/small initial spread/whatever makes it so the next 2 bullets will also hit the head. Quite similar to a point-and-click sniper.

(warbie) #229

[QUOTE=Samurai.;449875]I just feel the TTK discussions are so vague that nobody knows what anyone wants anymore and this mainly due to…

a) Misunderstanding TTK and communicating it with low/high/increase/decrease - people will say they want a low TTK (people die quickly) while describing a high TTK (people die slower).

b) the TTK varies between weapons, distances, player experiences (ping), classes and map environments so stating 1 value for TTK is pretty useless and impossible to communicate & form a discussion around.

c) People appear to have their own definition of TTK:

  • TTK is the minimum time it takes to kill someone, i.e pure headshots from the very first bullet which doesn’t happen regularly in all situations.
  • Other interpretations are the general length of typical firefights, i.e combination of HS’s and Bodyshots which is what all of us experience regularly in most situations.

If i was going to sum up what i have read/understood from the majority of players feedback in these forums and interpreted it from my perspective i would say the current message is:

[ul]
[li]TTK (pure headshots) is fine as it is, but the general length of typical firefights experienced (mix of Headshots and bodyshots) is too quick with many (but not all) of the weapons. [/li][/ul]
Therefore suggesting you reduce the body shot damage rates resulting in the same TTK as we have now (further rewarding tracking of the head) but an increased length of time for the most common firefights which involve HS’s & Bodyshot’s (punishing poorer aimers - giving them room to improve in DB).[/QUOTE]

Good post man. That helped clear things up for me a bit and you’re right, I was referring to general fight duration and shouldn’t have been using ttk.

‘TTK (pure headshots) is fine as it is, but the general length of typical firefights experienced (mix of Headshots and bodyshots) is too quick with many (but not all) of the weapons.’ Sums up my feelings spot on.

(ImageOmega) #230

By reducing body shot damage aren’t we just going back to making bullets feel like they are not lethal enough?

I wonder how DB’s weapon lethality compares to ET now and just wonder if people are seeing things through rosé tinted glasses.

(Anti) #231

There is definitely an element of that. Which actually do more side-by-side comparisons of this stuff here at SD than you folks think, and it’s quite clear a lot of players haven’t played ET/RTCW/ETQW/Brink recently enough to actually accurately compare them to DB.

That’s not to say the guy feeling people have about DB, that it is too fast or lethal are wrong, it’s just that those feelings are actually based on an ideally or a current feeling and not always on the game they used to play.

Personally I’ve found Ownly’s, woll3’s and kendle’s observations of the current system to be most in-line with what we think and what the stats data tells us. That time to kill is actually about right relative to the games most of you refer to and that it’s other mechanics and feedback elements of the game that are affecting peoples’ feelings.

(Protekt1) #232

[QUOTE=Anti;449884]There is definitely an element of that. Which actually do more side-by-side comparisons of this stuff here at SD than you folks think, and it’s quite clear a lot of players haven’t played ET/RTCW/ETQW/Brink recently enough to actually accurately compare them to DB.

That’s not to say the guy feeling people have about DB, that it is too fast or lethal are wrong, it’s just that those feelings are actually based on an ideally or a current feeling and not always on the game they used to play.

Personally I’ve found Ownly’s, woll3’s and kendle’s observations of the current system to be most in-line with what we think and what the stats data tells us. That time to kill is actually about right relative to the games most of you refer to and that it’s other mechanics and feedback elements of the game that are affecting peoples’ feelings.[/QUOTE]

Can you put out a weapon analysis chart?

This is an idea of what I mean

blackopsiiweaponstatist.png1920x1080

(OwNLY) #233

[QUOTE=Protekt1;449885]Can you put out a weapon analysis chart?
This is an idea of what I mean
[/QUOTE]

Well, how about it´s like on symthic.com?

(Ashog) #234

I strongly disagree with this. The TTK was decreased and more or less okay in milestone 18 and everyone was happy but you spoiled it 2 patches ago by decreasing it even more. That was meant as I thought only for testing things out and checking what people say, as we all agreed in forum. Now when people say what they think, loads of rotten tomatoes are being thrown at them. What’s the point of asking for feedback then?

Of course we don’t have mathematical proof of what TTK is lower/higher - it is impossible. What we instead can do, Anti, is to tell out feelings of the gameplay. And it doesn’t matter if we see it thru tinted or normal glasses, because this is the real actual feeling from the game. And I trust mine very much, as most people do theirs. It just can’t be wrong when so many people say the same feedback about TTK again and again.

(ImageOmega) #235

[QUOTE=Anti;449884]There is definitely an element of that. Which actually do more side-by-side comparisons of this stuff here at SD than you folks think, and it’s quite clear a lot of players haven’t played ET/RTCW/ETQW/Brink recently enough to actually accurately compare them to DB.

That’s not to say the guy feeling people have about DB, that it is too fast or lethal are wrong, it’s just that those feelings are actually based on an ideally or a current feeling and not always on the game they used to play.

Personally I’ve found Ownly’s, woll3’s and kendle’s observations of the current system to be most in-line with what we think and what the stats data tells us. That time to kill is actually about right relative to the games most of you refer to and that it’s other mechanics and feedback elements of the game that are affecting peoples’ feelings.[/QUOTE]

For what it’s worth I think the current gun play is pretty spot on with what I’d expect. I think a problem for some people is comparing how fast they die to a previous patch and somehow equating that to the game’s fault instead of their own skill/ability.

My judgement for if guns are what I expect are accuracy of where I am shooting (relative to crosshair), ability to take out multiple enemies, and ability to punish less skilled players who have an advantage (gun, position, timing, etc).

I do think you are right about feedback. I think an improvement to maps, speeding up the EV, and fixing carry mechanics would make a huge upgrade to the “fun factor” of DB.

(Samurai.) #236

So we have established the TTK is okay right now (i am assuming you mean the minimum time it takes to kill people with pure headshots) but what is your feeling on the typical length of firefights right now (as most firefights consist of 1 or 2 headshots and mostly bodyshots) this is different to TTK.

[QUOTE=ImageOmega;449882]By reducing body shot damage aren’t we just going back to making bullets feel like they are not lethal enough?
[/QUOTE]

By reducing body shot damage, the capability of weapons to kill players has not changed, if you hit headshots you will still kill them at the same rate as you do now meaning the potential maximum lethality of bullets has not changed in this regard. The outcome of this change however is that bad aimers are not as lethal as good aimers as they only hit body shots (easier to hit the body as a larger target than follow the head of a model), meaning player ability to track the head is the factor that determines how lethal the bullets can be rather than the game compensating for bad aim. This leads to an increased skill gap = room for players to improve rather than hit the skill ceiling as soon as they start playing = more time invested in the game to improve/progress = player-base stays around longer + more likely to invest money in the game.

So what hasn’t been discussed is what the difference between headshot and bodyshot damage should be compared to what it is now hence we need current statistics on weapon data to start analyzing and giving appropriate suggestions.

(pulley) #237

that makes no sense… Nub vs Nub TTK OK Samurai vs pulley TTK Not ok because pulley always dies in 2 seconds because Samurai is clever and aims to the head?

I think thats the way it should be.

(ImageOmega) #238

[QUOTE=Samurai.;449893]By reducing body shot damage, the capability of weapons to kill players has not changed, if you hit headshots you will still kill them at the same rate as you do now meaning the potential maximum lethality of bullets has not changed in this regard. The outcome of this change however is that bad aimers are not as lethal as good aimers as they only hit body shots (easier to hit the body as a larger target than follow the head of a model), meaning player ability to track the head is the factor that determines how lethal the bullets can be rather than the game compensating for bad aim. This leads to an increased skill gap = room for players to improve rather than hit the skill ceiling as soon as they start playing = more time invested in the game to improve/progress = player-base stays around longer + more likely to invest money in the game.

So what hasn’t been discussed is what the difference between headshot and bodyshot damage should be compared to what it is now hence we need current statistics on weapon data to start analyzing and giving appropriate suggestions.[/QUOTE]

I absolutely understand what you’re saying…that’s all common sense. My thoughts are that when you reduce any damage numbers, especially body shot, you start getting that bullets feel like wet sponges feeling. Players shouldn’t be able to absorb more bullets, nor should you have to dispense more bullets to kill. That seems like the wrong approach. Though, I understand you chose that route to keep the TTK the same and reward “good aimers”.

It’s like rockets with Quake. You hit a direct rocket and you do a huge amount of damage. If you only hit with the splash damage, you do less. But, if we were to reduce the amount of damage from splash in order to reward people with good aim (hitting directs), rockets would feel pretty horrendous.

I don’t really think weapons need tweaking in any sort of reductive capacity, but if it HAD to happen, I’d go with a possible lower rate of fire with a slight increase to headshot damage.

Also, while I would love to have weapon data myself, I think that would mean we get the forum posting pros spouting out theorycrafting rather than experiences playing the game. It irks me to no degree to have a debate with someone on the forums, then realize that they are a horrible player in game and their experiences are skewed by their ability to play. While, I know Splash Damage needs those opinions from all types of players, it just makes certain people’s words a little more hollow to me.

(rand0m) #239

I have to agree with IO. Gunplay seems okay as far as I can tell. TTK seems alright to me it’s just other feedback issues seem to be the problem. The fact that I never played below a 110 ping hurts me, and just all other aspects of the game other then that make it seem more absurd then it really is. I still think models need a bit of updating to make them seem a lot more steadier. They need to add some “weight” to them. I still don’t know how to describe that but I feel a though they don’t belong in the game there’s just something about them that says scrap these models and do it again. Also in line with gun sounds and hit beeps I think is creating feedback issues for people that has to do with netcode, gun sounds not playing properly and making it seem to fast at times. I also believe the HUD is awful. I can never tell how much hp I lost because tbh the bar method is awful. There needs to be numbers down there for our health and can change color as we lose and gain hp it’ll make it easier to tell how much hp you really lost in the firefight. I think it’s time you guys start getting to the HUD and start ironing that part of the game out.

(rand0m) #240

Just make mp_ice and mp_assault and ill be happy. :>