DIRTY BOMB UPDATE: Version 20076

(HellToupee) #241

How was it like COD then when TTK was similar the only difference was ETQW reduced any requirement for weapon control and gave you bigger clips

(pulley) #242

DB is far away from being COD like… In COD the difference between Headshot and Bodyshotdamage is very small. That makes it more easy for public players.

So just changing the RoF makes no sense. It will be the same gameplay. Better Aimer will win. The only thing that happens with lower RoF is that u can easy escape to cover. Thats a favor for the medic… He comes back with full HP…

(tokamak) #243

That was a huge strength in ETQW. The outcomes were determined by individual players rather than by fixed numbers grinding into each other (which is very much the case in Brink and DB). One player could easily sway the whole thing, but not by chance, by pure wit and skill.

(Breo) #244

[QUOTE=Ashog;449851]tbh I don’t see any major difference between the gameplay of these videos. The ETQW video’s TTK was actually even lower than in this RTCW’s video, imo.
[/QUOTE]

The ttk in fragmovies are inaccurate because not all the enemies are full health.

(BomBaKlaK) #245

I really think after few games, the biggest problem is the high body damage.

(Kl3ppy) #246

before making any big changes, the performance and hit reg needs to get polished/improved. Without this, there is a huge impact which influence the firefights on bothside.

(Anti) #247

When SD folks talk about TTK we are almost always talking about the fastest possible kills via body only or head only shots, as it s the only way to start comparing games head to head. If we want to judge average fight durations then we have to start factoring in accuracy, move speed, map design, number of players shooting target once etc.

Ashog, I’ve no doubt what you feel is what you’re saying, and that does matter as much as stats. What we’re doing right now though is looking at what you feel, looking at the stats and seeing how they differ. It’s the fact that what is happening and what you feel is happening where the issue is and that we need to fix, mostly it is feedback.

As an example I’ve already had some example vids of fast kills sent to me, ones that feel wrong. When viewed in playback it’s quite apparent why the kills seem fast, and in most cases it’s an unseen second enemy contributing to the fight. We either need to show this better to players or reduce the opportunity for focused fire if we want to address it. Changing RoF in that case would just make 1v1s worse and would still lead to some fights feeling disproportionally faster than 1v1s because of that unseen second or third enemy.

It’s not like we’re stopping balancing guns and monitoring this, we’ll still keep tweaking them, but right now we feel bigger issues affect the feel of combat than simply RoF.

(warbie) #248

That’s what causes me most frustration - suddenly finding myself half crippled from fire somewhere off to the side/above/behind. Public servers are always chaotic, but I find it particularly hard in DB to play aggressively while still keeping a good handle on where the threat may come from as it can come from all over the shop. Playing more cagey or finding a place to camp gets around that, but this is the exact opposite of the style of play I valued in RTCW and ET and exactly what pisses me off in most current fps.

(Hundopercent) #249

My issue with RoF is more than just TTK. It’s also the fact that you dump half your clip if not more per kill and it causes you to reload too much, which then causes you to stop sprinting, and which then causes the game to lose it’s fluidity. This can mostly be fixed by allowing reload and sprinting or by lowering RoF, either would be an upgrade from the current build.

The TTK is faster then before but still slower than most games for all classes but medic, which is my main gripe when it comes to TTK. I can’t revive because I’ll get killed, I can heal if I’m away from combat, and I also can’t 1v1 classes equally because of my classes skill set. It’s a hot bucket of **** to be honest. Better revive shield or better health packs, or make the classes be able to go toe to toe vs other classes equally and my perspective will probably change. Until then you are better off going soldier and drooling yourself to a 3:1 KDR and full map control.

I don’t want to derail this thread but I just wanted to add that the TTK, for the most part, is fine except for the medic. The real issue is gun sounds are off, RoF should be tweaked, and some better hit registration or whatever it is that feels like I’m shooting blanks at people. There is something off with the shooting and I can’t describe it unfortunately. Also the foggy/haze **** needs to go and the models need to pop more. I’m not just talking colors here. I’m talking the models actually blend in with the environment forcing me to play at 100 - 110 FoV because I can not see the model clearly at all at 120 FoV. I’m thinking the models might actually need to be bigger (fatter, meatier, american w/e) and have more of an arcadeish look to them so they stand out. This is something you can not ignore imo and should be looked into.

The barracks idea is terrible btw. I know you guys got to make your cash but I rarely ever play engineer or soldier and only FOPs to drop an airstrike on the EV and then right back to medic. So instead of restricting me to 5 load outs, you’re restricting me to 2 maybe 3. I would much rather have the option to pick my loadouts, at the same time, I can see your concern for matches not having a class to complete objectives or w/e. My rebuttal to that is, make the classes not suck and people will play them. You can start by making all the classes kill equally. Without that it will be soldier city on pubs and be pretty boring.

(rand0m) #250

[QUOTE=strychzilla;449932]My issue with RoF is more than just TTK. It’s also the fact that you dump half your clip if not more per kill and it causes you to reload too much, which then causes you to stop sprinting, and which then causes the game to lose it’s fluidity. This can mostly be fixed by allowing reload and sprinting or by lowering RoF, either would be an upgrade from the current build.

The TTK is faster then before but still slower than most games for all classes but medic, which is my main gripe when it comes to TTK. I can’t revive because I’ll get killed, I can heal if I’m away from combat, and I also can’t 1v1 classes equally because of my classes skill set. It’s a hot bucket of **** to be honest. Better revive shield or better health packs, or make the classes be able to go toe to toe vs other classes equally and my perspective will probably change. Until then you are better off going soldier and drooling yourself to a 3:1 KDR and full map control.

I don’t want to derail this thread but I just wanted to add that the TTK, for the most part, is fine except for the medic. The real issue is gun sounds are off, RoF should be tweaked, and some better hit registration or whatever it is that feels like I’m shooting blanks at people. There is something off with the shooting and I can’t describe it unfortunately. Also the foggy/haze **** needs to go and the models need to pop more. I’m not just talking colors here. I’m talking the models actually blend in with the environment forcing me to play at 100 - 110 FoV because I can not see the model clearly at all at 120 FoV. I’m thinking the models might actually need to be bigger (fatter, meatier, american w/e) and have more of an arcadeish look to them so they stand out. This is something you can not ignore imo and should be looked into.

The barracks idea is terrible btw. I know you guys got to make your cash but I rarely ever play engineer or soldier and only FOPs to drop an airstrike on the EV and then right back to medic. So instead of restricting me to 5 load outs, you’re restricting me to 2 maybe 3. I would much rather have the option to pick my loadouts, at the same time, I can see your concern for matches not having a class to complete objectives or w/e. My rebuttal to that is, make the classes not suck and people will play them. You can start by making all the classes kill equally. Without that it will be soldier city on pubs and be pretty boring.[/QUOTE]

I agree. I don’t mind the barracks all that much, but the rest of the post is spot on, I’m glad you agree with my take on the models as well. As much as I hate to say it I think they need to scrapped, or add some fat and some “ingame weight”.

(Samurai.) #251

[QUOTE=Anti;449928]When SD folks talk about TTK we are almost always talking about the fastest possible kills via body only or head only shots, as it s the only way to start comparing games head to head. If we want to judge average fight durations then we have to start factoring in accuracy, move speed, map design, number of players shooting target once etc.

Ashog, I’ve no doubt what you feel is what you’re saying, and that does matter as much as stats. What we’re doing right now though is looking at what you feel, looking at the stats and seeing how they differ. It’s the fact that what is happening and what you feel is happening where the issue is and that we need to fix, mostly it is feedback. [/QUOTE]

Well you highlighted the problem already: you are focusing too much on the TTK (Quickest possible time to kill an enemy) and not the average fight durations (What we players experience in 95% of our firefights). What people report as their in game “feelings” about firefights will more than likely correspond to average fight duration experiences as they are based on all those factors you mentioned which we as players experience during a firefight.

If you have the stats with you (or could provide some accurate insight) - What is the current difference for body shot only damage ‘time to kill’ between DB and the previous titles ET:QW/ET/RTCW that we are used to?

It also prompt’s me to ask if there is any progress on a dueling server (which got a lot of positive encouragement) so we can fully scrutinize the TTK/Average fight duration aspect of the game in a controlled environment?

(INF3RN0) #252

RTCW is a poor system in comparison from my perspective. 2 headshots, 4 body shots, fast RoF, huge bloom over time, crouching (aka iron sight) for best accuracy. That’s incredibly less demanding of a player.

Okay to be clear since most people who seem to not be skeptical towards the ETQW model never played the game more than a week… forget about all the vehicles, etc and focus your attention on infantry only. It upped the requirements of consistency ten fold.

(1) low RoF
(2) low body damage
(3) Headshot multiplier of 2.5x
(4) 3 HS vs 7 BS (more vs soldier)

There’s no randomness to it at all. You can always kill insanely faster if your aiming pixel perfect on the head. The TTK difference comes into play because if your not able to achieve that consistency, your TTK drops significantly. The higher the RoF is and the higher the body shot damage, the greater the randomness becomes. You can get away with spraying or just okay aiming in DB because the RoF is so high and you don’t even need to aim at the head to get a quick kill because the overall damage is so high. The more you force a player to need to have perfect aim at all times, the greater the reward.

Also when it comes to achieving multi kills… you can definitely kill a lot of people faster with a high TTK logistically, however you die a lot faster to less capable players and thus reduce your chances overall. When you have a lower RoF combined with higher headshot damage, you can indeed get multi kills more consistently because spraying/non-head aim is incredibly less effective. If reflexes seem less important, well that’s completely wrong. The player who snaps to the head of the other player first will still win almost all of the time, but now they just have to actually keep their crosshair on that head for more than 3ms.

Again this is about raising the bar on gun play for me, and from my pov ETQW did that in a really great way. If your pushing the RTCW system, your just as greedy so don’t go on a crusade about saving the game from ETQW players. This is about the systems not our favored games. I’d surely lean towards RTCW if it was the more intensive system, but it is definitely not, so if you think otherwise then please convince me.

(ImageOmega) #253

Wasn’t this exactly the same damage numbers Dirty Bomb had before the previous patch? Weren’t these the numbers we were all so happy to get away from?

And, what are exactly people suppose to convince you of? Your opinion being wrong? None of this makes any sense or helps Dirty Bomb whatsoever. You enjoyed QW’s guns…Understandable you had a favorite game. What’s the point of having someone try to “prove” that you’re wrong for enjoying one system over another? It’s like telling someone that they should prefer chess to checkers because chess has a certain system that they enjoy more. Doesn’t mean checkers can’t be just as “intense”, strategic, or fun.

What I’d rather use comparisons for is highlighting what games did right instead of trying to incite which previous titles did it better and which one DB should emulate more. It should just be, hey…this worked for that game, how would that be relevant to Dirty Bomb’s state and goals?

(woll3) #254

N80`s Fire Rate is ~440 rpm, just saying.

Edit:

So if i remember correct we have:

Arty´s AR with 545rpm, 4HS and 8BS
Sawbonez´ SMG with 619RPM, 4HS and 8BS,

RtCW´s MP40 with 600RPM 3HS(40dmg) and 8BS(14dmg)
RtCW´s Thompson with 500RPM 3HS(40dmg) and 6BS(18dmg)

ET´s MP40/Thommy with 400RPM 3HS (dunno BS)

QW´s N80 with 440rpm 3HS and 7BS

(INF3RN0) #255

In case you missed the point completely, people have a problem with the TTK being too high via RoF/Body shots. ETQW solved this by (1) lower ROF (2) bigger discrepancy between hs and bs damage. Some people want to maintain a very high TTK because why? They think it is the most rewarding system.

What is DB’s goal anyway? When people are complaining about the TTK in general it’s a problem for the game. ETQW is an example of a solution that still maintained interest for newbies, but allowed hardcore players to push forward. This indeed applies directly to DB’s confused weapon logic. It needs to decide what kind of system it wants to be already instead of trying to combine mechanics that don’t cooperate.

And I have no idea why you think we want to stray from that damage system?? Do we want 1 hs? Or more equalized body/damage? Less damage requirements overall? I never saw/heard that being the problem people had. Explain.

Again in case you missed it the first time This is about the systems not our favored games.

(woll3) #256

Are you sure it was 3HS in QW? I havent installed/played it for a while.

(INF3RN0) #257

http://forums.warchest.com/showthread.php/34254-DB-V15404-Weapon-Stats-(By-INF3RN0-Evil-Doer-Valdez)?p=421935&viewfull=1#post421935

AR did around 97dmg in 3 shots, but here’s some relevant comparisons of how the weapon systems function.

(woll3) #258

Well, maybe they can reduce it to 4/9 for AR and 4/10 for smg after seeing this, but tbh if i were a gamedesigner at SD, i would say **** this **** and starting to do JumpnRuns with all those complaints about a very small margin, one that would actually be good for Casuals to enjoy the Game more, after all this is about to make money and not only to please their “fans”, and casuals dont like bullet sponges that much, personally im fine with a multiplier of 2.

If the only complaint is the HS multiplier vs BS, well it would have been much easier if you just said so and why DB would benefit from it, but the actual (lowest)ttk is absolutely fine. As for lower ROF with same ttk, i have to say this is like saying that the shotgun takes more skill than the lg, but thats just my opinion, the better aimer wins in both cases.

And currently the biggest probs seem to be the netcode and map complexity(for some people), also we cannot forget that most firefights are now taking place at nearer distances than in previous games which also contributes to the “fast” firefight feeling.

Lets drink some Tea until the netcode and performance gets improved.

(Anti) #259

[QUOTE=Samurai.;449942]Well you highlighted the problem already: you are focusing too much on the TTK (Quickest possible time to kill an enemy) and not the average fight durations (What we players experience in 95% of our firefights). What people report as their in game “feelings” about firefights will more than likely correspond to average fight duration experiences as they are based on all those factors you mentioned which we as players experience during a firefight.

If you have the stats with you (or could provide some accurate insight) - What is the current difference for body shot only damage ‘time to kill’ between DB and the previous titles ET:QW/ET/RTCW that we are used to?

It also prompt’s me to ask if there is any progress on a dueling server (which got a lot of positive encouragement) so we can fully scrutinize the TTK/Average fight duration aspect of the game in a controlled environment?[/QUOTE]

Not ‘focusing’ on TTK, just pointing out that when we clock TTK we start with the worst case. Well aware that fights don’t turn out perfect all the time, that’s why I posted the accuracy ranges, to give you an idea of how infrequent the worst case TTK being achieved is.

I don’t have the stats handy but as far as I’m aware the TTK for body in ET and ETQW, and it’s relationship relative to the head shot TTK, are very similar to DB. I can try and grab exact numbers when I’m back in the office next week but I believe the difference is negligible.

As woll3 said I think this thread is losing its focus now. People are splitting hairs about very tiny margins of difference here between DB and some of our previous games, in the process failing to discuss a number of more imbalanced areas of the game that are probably having a bigger impact on firefight durations.

I’m going to close this thread, as I think it’s run its course. If there are other areas to discuss make new thread for them, otherwise we can take this up again in subsequent patch threads should it still be relevant.