DECEMBER 1ST HOTFIX CHANGES

[Black2]

[quote=“Kay-Dubz;118211”]@MissMurder

I did some testing…and when I self bang myself fully (standing on the bomb), Im blinded but still able to run just as fast…and turn just as easily. I was able to use my minimap to manuver around until my sight returned.

Is this kind of ease of movement and ease of seeing the map intended when you flash bang yourself? Im used to flash bangs wiping out your minimap in other video games.

How about enemy flash bangs? Ive yet to be hit by one fully yet…and Im wondering if Ill still be able to move around as easily while also aided by my minimap if I need to retreat while blind.[/quote]

Alright, let’s be honest with ourselves. Being blinded and slowed is pretty much overkill. You are going to blind me AND hinder my sight? Damn.

I think it should just be a blind because being slowed in Dirty Bomb is pretty much death.

[Karma_Police]

I understand keeping sensitivity and god bless reducing friendly flashes. But…

Hit markers stays on screen when flashed, minimap stays on too, crosshair turns red when shooting the enemy, now there is no cooking and it is easy for experienced players to look away when there is a concussion grenade coming. I don’t know what Thunder is for anymore.

[cornJester]

[quote=“BlackFro;118219”][quote=“Kay-Dubz;118211”]@MissMurder

I did some testing…and when I self bang myself fully (standing on the bomb), Im blinded but still able to run just as fast…and turn just as easily. I was able to use my minimap to manuver around until my sight returned.

Is this kind of ease of movement and ease of seeing the map intended when you flash bang yourself? Im used to flash bangs wiping out your minimap in other video games.

How about enemy flash bangs? Ive yet to be hit by one fully yet…and Im wondering if Ill still be able to move around as easily while also aided by my minimap if I need to retreat while blind.[/quote]

Alright, let’s be honest with ourselves. Being blinded and slowed is pretty much overkill. You are going to blind me AND hinder my sight? Damn.

I think it should just be a blind because being slowed in Dirty Bomb is pretty much death.[/quote]

Being hit with Fragger’s nade IS death. Why should this grenade be any different? I still have to shoot you after! Fragger just has to toss it and you die! Why are people so against Thunder having an effective grenade too?

[KayDubz]

[quote=“BlackFro;118219”][quote=“Kay-Dubz;118211”]@MissMurder

I did some testing…and when I self bang myself fully (standing on the bomb), Im blinded but still able to run just as fast…and turn just as easily. I was able to use my minimap to manuver around until my sight returned.

Is this kind of ease of movement and ease of seeing the map intended when you flash bang yourself? Im used to flash bangs wiping out your minimap in other video games.

How about enemy flash bangs? Ive yet to be hit by one fully yet…and Im wondering if Ill still be able to move around as easily while also aided by my minimap if I need to retreat while blind.[/quote]

Alright, let’s be honest with ourselves. Being blinded and slowed is pretty much overkill. You are going to blind me AND hinder my sight? Damn.

I think it should just be a blind because being slowed in Dirty Bomb is pretty much death.[/quote]

How is it overkill? It does NO HP damage. Every other assault class can hurt you with their ability. What does Thunder gain in terms of killing power if his ability is now nerfed twice over?

He cant cook nades, so now enemies can look away and not get blinded.

Enemies can move freely and still kill a big hitbox because there’s no concussed turn limiter anymore.

I dont see any true assault ability in him right now. Id much rather use Fragger nades, Nader’s launcher, or Rhino’s minigun. You know…abilities that actually hurt the enemy and rack up kills.[quote=“Karma_Police;118220”]I understand keeping sensitivity and god bless reducing friendly flashes. But…

Hit markers stays on screen when flashed, minimap stays on too, crosshair turns red when shooting the enemy, now there is no cooking and it is easy for experienced players to look away when there is a concussion grenade coming. I don’t know what Thunder is for anymore.[/quote]

All of this is right too. Thunder has much less ability as a killing class. Why is anything visible on the screen when flashed? I shouldnt be able to move freely, aim, and also have my sense of direction.

[GottaBeGreg]

Pre this patch I could almost see his place inside a Competitive team, with some team coordination working well together to rack up some blinded / concussed kills, but now that everyone retains their sensitivity I see no hope in hell for him to ever even touch the competitive scene. No one will get blinded by the uncooked grenade, no one will be unable to shoot back when concussed, no one will use this merc in his current state, except to try and see how well they can do with a BAD MERC.

[extravagentFlame]

tunder is fun and too fat must diet LOL .but if tunder cant “cook” he is the worst of the merc in hole game

[cornJester]

Thunder is the ONLY merc that you can completely eliminate the effect of their ability by a simple action. This should not be the case. If you get the concussion message it should blind them completely, whether they look at it or not and also you should not have hitmarkers or a hud when blinded.

[Chase1]

Lets be honest here,

Thunder is underpowered pre-nerf and majority of the complaints were thunder flashing themselves or flashing teammates. If Thunder isn’t going to reduce mouse sens, you might as well increase the slow it gives. I feel like Thunder’s flashes should be able to reduce their sens and gradually return their sens.

There’s a fine line between making Thunder overpowered and underpowered just like Phantom. Why not buff the flashbangs and nerf the cooldowns? Playing Thunder pre-nerf, I felt like I could toss flash bangs all day errday - in a sense I never had to wait for the cooldown consciously and it isn’t as strategically-thought out as a molotov.

Personally, I feel that the Devs should consider buffing the flash and increasing the cooldown from 20-25 seconds.

[MilkyBear]

Unnecessary nerf is unnecessary.

[bontsa]

I am able to kind of see why developers wanted to tone down the ability somewhat; unlike Fraggernade, you’re able to disorient a great deal of cluttered people, if not the whole team no matter if it is 5 or even 7 players. I’m not saying it shouldn’t, if they all gather up so tightly they asked for it, but you get the idea: it does have larger range of effect than frag, rightly so.

However, doing stuff like removing the cook just “dumbs down” the ability a great deal. It feels like one of the most preventable, and even when hit easily dealable ability. Like for instance, it does give you tad bit of edge in 1vs1 but you should already have tools at your disposal to be considered a great threat in 1vs1: Thunder has large hp pool and harsh guns. These come with their own downsides already though, but Fragger is dealing with the same so I think that’s what we’re used to by now and works to some extent.

How about 2vs2, 2vs3, XvsX or XvsY? Well here it gets tricky, as for now you cannot be tactic enough with the flash to deal with competent players who know to anticipate it and look away. You can get the concussed- notification and barge in, even if cautiously only to face against couple completely unaffected individuals and get shreked. It’s a irritation rather than powerful ability able to turn the tide of the underdog side. Whenever I win a underdog- like fight with Thunder’n’teammates, I dont feel the slightest it was due to “good flash” or anything, its the other things like positioning and concentration that was better than the enemy’s.

Long story short and there’s already been so much good discussion of other things I wanted to add to, that I just say stop dumbing the ability down, decide if you want it to be crowd control, irritation, non-lethal but powerful push tool or what, and go with it. Next time fix the bugs and clearly broken stuff with ability before changing it right off the bat after a week of testing, since technically we were testing broken “product” for the first week to begin with.

[DeadAlive]

Glad to see most of this.

I don’t care for the complete removal of the sensitivity effect, and I’m still not sure that retaining an FF flash with FF off is a good idea. With the nade heavily adjusted, is that really necessary?

Personally, I think leaving in the reduced mouse sensitivity is fine so long as the range is very short, basically needing to land within 0.5-1m.

I agree with others that you have to compare to other grenade types. When Fragger and Nader’s nades land, they can KILL multiple people in a decent range. Thunder’s nade does no damage, so it doesn’t need a super nerf.

Players not liking the stun effect should keep in mind that if it had been a Fragger nade landing by them, they wouldn’t be alive to complain about it. Thunder’s nade is designed to PREP a small area for incursion, and cause moderate disarray amongst a few players.

I haven’t had time to be exposed to this new update yet, but I definitely favor restoring the stun effect in limited fashion. If you don’t want to restore the sensitivity reduction, then please consider adding a large spread which reduces over time. (it never had spread, right?)

[streetwiseSailboat]

[quote=“BlackFro;118219”]@MissMurder
I think it should just be a blind because being slowed in Dirty Bomb is pretty much death.[/quote]

Isn’t that the point? Fragger could kill you instantly with a grenade. Thunder will just make you fear for your life before you get hosed down by the enemy.

[MilkyBear]

[quote=“streetwiseSailboat;118285”][quote=“BlackFro;118219”]@MissMurder
I think it should just be a blind because being slowed in Dirty Bomb is pretty much death.[/quote]

Isn’t that the point? Fragger could kill you instantly with a grenade. Thunder will just make you fear for your life before you get hosed down by the enemy.
[/quote]

How about keep the mouse sensitivity, but make them as blind and slow as it used too. Right now, it’s so hard to get close to get a kill because Thunder is slow and others even when they are blinded, still run like a maniac, and even if you can get close enough, you still have no idea how blinded/stunted they are? I got shot all the time, not very happy with those changes.

[MilkyBear]

[quote=“MissMurder;118187”]Thanks for all the feedback already. A LOT of players were in an uproar after we initially released Thunder- mostly to the team blinding that was happening and blinding yourself as Thunder… As for the other changes I’ll definitely keep reading your feedback and relaying it to the devs.

He’s just not as fun to play with the removal of the turn limiter. It’s extremely hard to tell who is and isn’t concussed now, which also removes some of the fun of it. Those who are blinded have their hand up but it’s hard to tell with the concussive effect.

Also concussing people seems to be of little use and is unreliable, now that it simply slows them down a bit it’s just two slower people fighting each other, except you have a massive hitbox for that higher health. They can aim just fine so it really kinda doesn’t help all that much.

Fragger can outright kill you with his nades that have the same cooldown! Why are Thunder’s nades being made less powerful when they don’t even do damage? I have to still win a normal gunfight pretty much now.

EDIT: You probably should just not be able to move much at all, like Rhino spinup speed if concussed but still be able to aim.

Double Edit: It doesn’t even seem to slow them down…[/quote]

Confirm, tested with my friend, he still can move freely (maybe slightly slower than usual but still).

[CCP1151]

Thunder was too strong before the nerf, and now he’s too weak, maybe try to find something inbetween.

I’m totally ok with a movespeed penalty, even if it’s a 75% penalty, but mouse sens should not be reduced at all. Make my screen sway a bit, I don’t care, just don’t remove mouse sens.

CS:GO literally just makes your screen white, no slowdowns, no sens changes, yet it is still an invaluable tool. Why does this tool need to be so strong?

And if nerfing one grenade is too hard, give him two separate damn nades, a flash with a much shorter cooldown, and a concussion/EMP.

[bontsa]

[quote=“CCP115;118306”]Thunder was too strong before the nerf, and now he’s too weak, maybe try to find something inbetween.

I’m totally ok with a movespeed penalty, even if it’s a 75% penalty, but mouse sens should not be reduced at all. Make my screen sway a bit, I don’t care, just don’t remove mouse sens.

CS:GO literally just makes your screen white, no slowdowns, no sens changes, yet it is still an invaluable tool. Why does this tool need to be so strong?[/quote]

Thing with the CS though, is that flashbang as implemented there is strong utility exactly because of the current mechanics. It hinders eyesight and hearing strongly in a game where stuff, that you must see and hear in order to react right, happens in microseconds and there is no “fallback” (like healing / ammo support), it doesn’t need to do anything else to be strong.

In DB however, there are respawns in mostly played modes, you got fallbacks like getting more ammo if you spray around to defend yourself or healing, even reviving if your push went wrong. That is why I feel its justified concussion nade does more than blind you for a short while. Or the blinding effect has to be spot on; real indicator for Thunder that the enemy IS indeed flashed (not the model goofery we got now), no hit indicators for flashed enemy so they cant just scan for enemies that way with high-clip sized weaponary, and so forth.

Either we do have concussion effect as an added bonus for very spot-on grenade throw, which is justified to be rewarded in my opinion, or we get more refined working flash effect more suited for fast-phased, high spam-related (intelligent spam is a thing, mind you!) game. I wouldn’t mind having both obviously.

[KayDubz]

Ok, so I had an extended playthrough tonight. Thunder’s ability is just bad now.

When the enemy flashed my from a distance, I was flashed for maybe 1 second, and if I turned my back, it was maybe a bit less than that. I only got caught off guard by a flash a few times. Every other time I saw the nade and was able to turn around or duck behind a wall before it went off.

Also, whenever I did get flashed, I was able to check my minimap and sprint away blind before the Thunder could pop out and get me. Thats bad. Or Id simply fire off some shots and start putting led into Thunder when he came after me.

Right now Thunder’s ability is useless about any decent player. Im level 23 right now…and he doesnt bother me one bit. I actually dont even fear him in a 1 v 1 with a weaker merc because of his huge hit box, and the main LMG is so weak per bullet with bad spread. If I make someone miss some rounds, Thunder isnt hard to beat.

Compared to the other assault mercs, Thunder is the worst at the moment. 1 v 1 with a good Fragger, I know he can take cover and toss a nade or kill me quickly with the M4. Nader can pop some grenades at my feet or use the crotzni on me. And I rarely take on Rhino 1 v 1 unless he’s already worn down to half health, because he’s usually on a health station and the minigun kills quick.

Devs need to remove minimap and crosshairs when blinded. And they also need to make mouse movement altered when concussed.

[Robtastic]

Dear Miss Murder,
First of all I only registered because of this glorious thunder nerf.

As active players could see, there were only a few who decided to give him a chance (me included). He was a bit underpowered before the “hotfix” mainly because of his size and his mk46 in my opinion (this gun is just rubbish but that’s another thing).

I think the conc nade was okay, but even the nade needed a little buff because it needs skill to be useful (more skill than fraggers).

If Thunder should be the assault that he is supposed to be:
Don’t give a merc with that SIZE and that MOBILITY a grenade that can’t be cooked.
How should he run into a group with that mobility when no one is flashed cause it’s totally predictable now (fraggers nade isn’t that predictable at all). And that was supposed to be his purpose.

Besides that, he only got 160hp and that’s ridiculous for that easy-to-aim-at target.

Now this merc is pretty useless (and that’s really sad cause he had so much potential). I agree with most of my comrades in this post, you should fix him fast before he gets so unpopular that, even if he’s fixed in far future, no one would ever give him a go anymore.
Just fix him.

Thank you.

PS: if something’s wrong, please excuse my english.

[Tanker_Ray]

Rest in pepperonis!! Thunder!!

[moonlitAbility]

i posted this and it got closed, so reposting:::

So i believed changes were needed… but i was playing with thunder last night (and against some)… and using cards with explodahydron.

it seems like without the sensitivity lowering, the concussion effect does nothing. i was able to still see and aim easily despite everything looking like im on mushrooms.

the first few days i could throw in a concussion to breach, and then when i entered see that people were struggling to see/ jumping into walls, etc… now it seems by the time i move my fat as into the room i just concussed 3 people are shooting right at me like nothing happened

anyone else feel like they overnerfed the nades? they feel useless now