It appears when we use terms such as “strafe jumping” that it gets misinterpreted of what we mean, i can see easily why due to the variation in the way it has been implemented across many games but still classified under “strafe jumping”.
My interpretation for Dirtybomb is in regards to preventing the momentum from being killed after consecutive jumps. Right now if you try to do consecutive jumps while moving forward you end up basically standing still jumping on the spot. I am not asking for further momentum to stack on top of each other getting faster and faster to an extreme extent, neither would it be something that would be viable in a firefight, it’s purely for movement from A to B being interesting, feel natural/smooth and requires thought/input rather than just hold W+Sprint from point of spawn to the area around the objective which you often see no enemies and can be a particularly boring aspect of the game.
BF3 has exactly this kind of thing that i am asking for, in which jumping didn’t kill momentum, it just helps avoid taking damage while fleeing from a situation (such as medic revival infront of enemies -> strafe jump to cover) without reducing your speed.
I think this is a good visual reference of what i am talking about in BF3:
There’s a very subtle difference in the speeds, (1.7’s in the example over the distance) but it’s worth implementing to give an advantage to those that can use it to get to a choke point before an enemy who doesn’t strafe jump + it makes the movement system seem way more fluid and enjoyable to use. If firefights are an issue, just address it with a large increase in spread across all weapons for sprinting + jumping basically making it useless in firefights. (Edit: This is where crouch jumping could be introduced to kill the momentum (easier to track) and decrease the spread to a useable value in a firefight).
If a system like this can be implemented into a game with the playerbase and popularity of BF3 without alienating players, i struggle to see how Dirtybomb will invent these issues.
[QUOTE=Anti;440474]
If there are ways we can get speed, skill and responsiveness into the game, but keep it understandable and relate-able we’ll do that. [/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Samurai.;440480]It appears when we use terms such as “strafe jumping” that it gets misinterpreted of what we mean, i can see easily why due to the variation in the way it has been implemented across many games but still classified under “strafe jumping”.
My interpretation for Dirtybomb is in regards to preventing the momentum from being killed after consecutive jumps. Right now if you try to do consecutive jumps while moving forward you end up basically standing still jumping on the spot. I am not asking for further momentum to stack on top of each other getting faster and faster to an extreme extent, neither would it be something that would be viable in a firefight, it’s purely for movement from A to B being interesting, feel natural/smooth and requires thought/input rather than just hold W+Sprint from point of spawn to the area around the objective which you often see no enemies and can be a particularly boring aspect of the game.
BF3 has exactly this kind of thing that i am asking for, in which jumping didn’t kill momentum, it just helps avoid taking damage while fleeing from a situation (such as medic revival infront of enemies -> strafe jump to cover) without reducing your speed.
I think this is a good visual reference of what i am talking about in BF3:
There’s a very subtle difference in the speeds, (1.7’s in the example over the distance) but it’s worth implementing to give an advantage to those that can use it to get to a choke point before an enemy who doesn’t strafe jump + it makes the movement system seem way more fluid and enjoyable to use. If firefights are an issue, just address it with a large increase in spread across all weapons for sprinting + jumping basically making it useless in firefights.
If a system like this can be implemented into a game with the playerbase and popularity of BF3 without alienating players, i struggle to see how Dirtybomb will invent these issues.
I believe this can be achieved with the above.[/QUOTE]
Thanks, this is an interesting example, especially as it has Mt Eden playing on it
Their jump is quite protracted which lessens the concern we have about tracking (when viewing a player’s movement trail from the side we’d prefer it to be flat rather than a worm) although I imagine this means their base jump height is quite low, which wouldn’t suit our existing maps.
I’m not sure many here would agree with you that that sort of strafe jumping is enough for what they want though, the gain is so minimal and the strafe jump speed shown their is almost certainly slower than our current sprint speed.
Well it’s time for them to speak up and give their opinion on it - regardless of whether it’s to the extent they want, it’s atleast an improvement from what we have right now imo. I understand you concerns over the height of jumping in your maps, but that’s something for you clever folks to solve and get paid for . In terms of the actual speed, it doesn’t need to be a direct replication to DB, it was more the correlation between the run speed and the strafe jumping speed being fairly subtle and applying it to the current speed values (or whatever you decide).
I think Samurai has hit the nail on the head, when people around here use the term “strafe-jump” they probably mean just what’s shown in that BF3 vid, they don’t mean a Quake style sequence of uninterrupted strafe-jumps for ever increasing speed and distance.
I would certainly be happy with what’s shown in that vid, and I bet most people around here would as well.
[QUOTE=Kendle;440499]I think Samurai has hit the nail on the head, when people around here use the term “strafe-jump” they probably mean just what’s shown in that BF3 vid, they don’t mean a Quake style sequence of uninterrupted strafe-jumps for ever increasing speed and distance.
I would certainly be happy with what’s shown in that vid, and I bet most people around here would as well.[/QUOTE]
+1 for Kendle.
[QUOTE=Kendle;440499]I think Samurai has hit the nail on the head, when people around here use the term “strafe-jump” they probably mean just what’s shown in that BF3 vid, they don’t mean a Quake style sequence of uninterrupted strafe-jumps for ever increasing speed and distance.
I would certainly be happy with what’s shown in that vid, and I bet most people around here would as well.[/QUOTE]
Lol yeah. I always pictured Quake style. Which is why I also thought sprint was a viable alternative to consistent and continuous strafe jumping. Seems like more so than the minimal speed increase people don’t want to hit an artificial wall when jumping forcing them to come to a complete stop. Take out those types of restrictions for a patch.
I certainly also pictured Quake-style, more like W:ET, which in a sense is also a military shooter (no monsters or some strange world, but on earth and with strafe-jumping system). Don’t know about Warsow, but mainly i pictured W:ET, yes.
I <3 Strafejumping, it is such a great component to a game, its wouldnt be used in combat, its just a way to add skill and fun and reward people when making those boring runs to the frontline. Also it stops snipers from having such an easy time when sniping at range at running players.
Strafejumping’s missing in so many games for me (i literally try it in every game). It’s annoying gradually stopping when jumping. The minimal speed increase could still be a game changer though, hope it can get implimented!
/Disclaimer: I haven’t played DB for a few weeks now. University finals, dissertation, blah that stuff needs to come first. I have been reading the threads, and I’ve noticed complaints about server population. I mention this now because it’ll be the first thing thrown at me if people don’t like what I’m about to say. I was going to hold off contributing until I had time to get back in to the game, but this seems like a good point to braindump:
I’ve found this thread and the slide one a bit confusing. Both sliding about and jumping makes tracking players more difficult. SD offer this is a reason to not do strafe-jumping but consider sliding a maybe*, and some players offer this as a reason to not do sliding but would like to see strafe-jumping.
I bring this up because my first reaction to sliding was ‘yuck’, whilst I’ve been kinda vocal about introducing QCJs and ramp-jumping. I’ve been giving it some thought since to try to work out exactly what it is that my feelings are.
Sliding: I can see the attraction from a game-feel perspective. You sprint, and slide into cover. It makes the motion of your character smoother, and gives it the feeling of mass. It was done really badly in Brink, mostly due to the controls, so you often slid past your cover and right into a teammate. With the right controls it might work kinda well; people above have suggested that you have a sprint status, a crouch status, and a combination slide status, and can return to their sprint or crouch depending on what key you release. That’d probably be enough to make it controllable, assuming the extra simultaneous keypresses didn’t screw with people using certain keyboards.
I think the problem with it is that if it’s good enough to act as an evasive tactic whilst getting you to cover, it’s good enough to act as an evasive tactic out in the open too, which encourages using it all the time. Then you arrive at the exact thing that gives you pause when considering strafe-jumping, because suddenly the head hitbox is darting up and down.
If you combat that by adding some sort of delay onto the end so you’re staggered slightly, it’ll be annoying to use. It’s exactly that sort of control-loss which people hated in Brink, so you’re going to get massive lolBrink complaints as soon as you try it. I’m not sure I can think of a way to make sliding situationally useful without making it incredibly annoying.
Strafejumping: ALERT: INCOMING ETQW REFERENCES. STANDARD DISCLAIMERS APPLY.
I like ramp-jumps, and QCJs. I think the things I liked most about the movement in ETQW was that I was in control all the time, and that movement wasn’t just holding down one or two buttons. The addition of a movement system with a timing and rhythm gave my brain something to be optimising and managing between fights; it required brain interaction with the environment - a uprooted tile here or a hand-rail here and you gain the ability to enter a fight airborne from some angle that the other player totally did not expect to see you coming. You could kinda do it during a fight, but only really to escape briefly by QCJing as you turned a corner to put some extra distance between you if you were fleeing. It was like an alternate mode that didn’t overwhelm combat, but sorta flowed into it seamlessly.
With all the requests for sprint-reloading and stuff, I do wonder if it might make sense to turn sprint into a very short duration speed boost, either by duration or giving it a recharge bar, and letting players timing and rhythm their way into a slightly faster movement speed by hitting it with the right timing, so you use it like a QCJ, except without the need for a jump phase. You could chain it with ramp-jumps (PLS ADD RAMP JUMPS) for trick-jumping purposes.
You could maybe change the rate that the charge bar refills during combat, so it intentionally becomes another dodging mechanism like crouching or dodging that you need to manage.
Anyway, I think that for me, the key thing about strafe-jumping was the addition of a movement system that generated such an emergent interaction with the environment. It created movement that required constant interaction, so it melded with combat to create an experience that was continuous, rather than being just gunfights separated with silence.
*I kinda also wanna put this out here: I don’t think there’s anything wrong with SD saying that sliding (or anything else) is a maybe. They haven’t outrightly said anything about this, so I might be wrong, but I suspect the reason they have locked off servers and a locked off forum is that they want a place that they can present sketches of ideas without getting tense over the reaction they might get from us.
SD might be a company with some professionals trained to interact with the public, but many more of them are artists or programmers or level designers or whatever. The last thing you want for ideas people is for every sketch they make to inspire a ****ing war. Sketches are sketches. Alpha is alpha. This is really absurdly early in the development process. Development take time. Chill.
And before the cheerleaders swing by to no-comment downrate me: This isn’t a post aimed at Strychzilla. I actually agree with most of what he has to say, this is a more general thing; I’ve noticed tensions running between all sorts of people. This alpha thing doesn’t need to be a terrible stressful experience for everyone. PLS MAKE WELCOM NEW MOD SHIRO LOL okay bye.
[QUOTE=shirosae;440524]
Anyway, I think that for me, the key thing about strafe-jumping was the addition of a movement system that generated such an emergent interaction with the environment. It created movement that required constant interaction, so it melded with combat to create an experience that was continuous, rather than being just gunfights separated with silence.[/QUOTE]
^ this is exactly what i am talking about with the current state of the movement in DB. I couldn’t find as accurate words to convey my point instead just relating it to being “boring” but what you point out here is exactly what i was trying to say the problem is and why i am trying to suggest a kind of “casual” strafe-jump at the very least to introduce this continuous experience between moving from the spawn and combat.
That has a much higher jump height than BF and no delay at all between jumps (BF3 seems to force two steps between jumps) based on the first person anims. ETQW generates the vertical snakey movement that makes tracking of targets much harder, that’s very much what we’re worried about.
I can see potential for DB in the BF3 example shown by samurai, but the ETQW example is what worries us.
That video is pretty much what i also envision. Would it fit? Depends on what game you envision.
I am also not quite able to grasp the concern of tracking though, since i am used to scenarios where a game worked very well with this type of movement system. Basically W:ET firefights were not about jumping, they were mostly about strafing left to right and crouching meanwhile. No one jumped or used his trickjump ability to gain advantage during a firefight. It was just not worth it.
Am pretty sad actually, since i always thought this would be added during the process of alpha …
Just watched this thing and I have to admit I never really knew what strafe jumping really is. I thought what it means is merely jumping left and right to confuse youre opponents. Guess that made me officially a casual, next to noob, gamer; though I’m quite ok with that.
My opinion on “strafe-jumping”: Aside from the possiblity to alienate casual and noob players like me, it would definitely destroy the whole tone and atmosphere of the game; not to mention the gameplay itself. From what I’ve seen so far, strafe seems perfectly reasonable for arena shooter, but it would draw more realistic shooter like DB in the realm of ridicule. Maybe I’m totally wrong here, but the mere idea of 16 constantly bouncing and shooting players in those quite realistic maps from DB wouldn’t make me look forward to a possible implementation of strafe-jumping. Therefore, I’m quite happy, that that’s basically not open for debate anymore.
. In terms of the actual speed, it doesn’t need to be a direct replication to DB, it was more the correlation between the run speed and the strafe jumping speed being fairly subtle and applying it to the current speed values (or whatever you decide).