Dear Splash Damage


(ImageOmega) #1

I am not trying to clog up the forum or fight for posting stardom. I am merely seeking an answer from Splash Damage. A direct one.

I linked the above threads because I think they are saturated themselves with plenty of ideas, feedback, and critiques on what we, the current and representative gamer base, want to see from Dirty Bomb. While we may not all agree 100 percent on the specifics the general consensus seems to be overwhelmingly for a change in the same direction.

I just want to know what is Splash Damage’s direction regarding movement, bullet damage (headshots included), shooting spread, and spawn times. Seems like a short list, but I know the topics are umbrellas of decisions, mechanics, and implementations.

I also understand that Anti has hoped we take a better forum direction towards improving the maps. The real issue isn’t the maps. The maps are very playable, albeit some more than others. But, when the core mechanics are on question you could really hold off further map discussion. Imagine what would happen to some maps if a higher jump height was introduced. What would happen if we actually got those longer spawn times we want and eveyone has loved since they were introduced to the stopwatch servers? You see, maps are a secondary discussion.

So, my question to Splash Damage is can we get a clear picture of what you guys are debating about at the office and what feedback is stifling getting the changes we are debating about here on the forums? Of course the above topics are the ones I am interested in. They affect Dirty Bomb as a whole and the future direction of the game. Please use the above linked threads for further questions and topics that need to be answered/discussed.

Let us know that our feedback is in consideration. Thank you.


(Anti) #2

This kind of post is good, I like it, we can discuss this :slight_smile:

We’ve read all of those threads (for better or for worse). What are we doing about the games movement, damage, spread and spawn times in relation to what has been discussed there? Well:

[ul]
[li]We want to make movement more skilled, fun and in depth, but maybe not quite to the extent some of you would like. We’d like to try a few things to do this (crouch jumping, maybe more adjusting to, or removing of acceleration, plus some other stuff). Some of these will take a lot of time because of how the game works, some are lower priority than finishing some other features, some will only happen after other tweaks are tested. I can’t tell you when you’re likely to see them in a patch, but I’d say we’re not done looking at movement.
[/li]
It’s almost certain at this point that we won’t add strafe jumping, and we don’t want ‘dancing’ to be so effective that it alienates players (very few games have ever had this mechanic). If we were building a slightly different type of shooter we’d probably look at these mechanics as well, but we don’t feel it’ll work for DB or its business model.

[li]As for damage and spread, as stated in another thread yesterday we’re decreasing spread and creep for next patch, after we test that we’ll also look a little bit at hit boxes. This is an area of the game that will take lots of iteration and will carry on being iterated upon for…well, forever :slight_smile:
[/li]
We’re headed roughly to where you guys want us to be in this regard though, multi-kills should be possible etc but we might not go quite as far as say RTCW. We’ll have to see where we end up closer to open beta.

[li]Spawn times, like weapon behavior will be adjusted over and over between now and release. Our current feeling is Objective mode is OK for what we want it to be, although we do still discuss it. It’s not a burning issue for us right now though so other things have our focus. In Stopwatch I think we’re happy with how waves work, but we’re not sure about wave times yet, we need to do a lot more tweaking of them to get stats data to prove how they are fairing. I imagine wave times will get longer, I don’t think we’ll get quite as high as the 30 seconds that is often suggested (right now they’re all at 15 seconds and there are bugs that still set some to 0), but I can’t see them staying at 15 seconds either. We’ll see how it goes.
[/li][/ul]

I hope that clears up the specific questions you asked. There are some other things I’d like to point out though whilst we’re at it, that might give you some context as to why the game is as it is right now:

[ul]
[li]The game is far from finished, please don’t consider what we have now to be the core of the final game, we’re still in alpha.
[/li]
[li]The game will be far bigger than what you see right now, we still have to work on a lot of core systems and features, this is why some iterative changes that require more code work (like crouch jumping) are very slow to come about as we have other things we have to do first. We’re only a small dev team :slight_smile:
[/li]
[li]We’re not making a sequel to ET, ETQW or Brink, or the second coming of RTCW :tongue::slight_smile:
[/li]
[li]We are making a game that is in the spirit of ET and elements of ETQW, that is still our goal. However it’s very important to the game’s success that some of the ‘edges’ of those games are softened to make the game easier to acclimatize to for a lot of the current generation of FPS players, and so that it works for the Free-to-play business model. We believe faster and more skilled, with a need for team work, makes for the the most fun in PC FPS games, that is where we want to go. Bringing people with us, to that realization, is a tough challenge though.
[/li][/ul]

Despite what some of you folks like to say there isn’t the 100% clear consensus between the alpha community about what the game should be. There are camps that each have their own immovable opinions, then there are plenty of folks who have opinions that straddle the many camps, so we have to be careful how far we go in each direction. That also affects the rate of change to some extent.

We plan to do a few things in the near future to get feedback from you folks in a slightly different way, that’ll be something else we can add to the feedback we get from forums, demos and stats to help us judge how the bulk of the community feel about the game’s direction. We can then use that clearer picture to help us plan our work and continue our iteration of that direction.


(SockDog) #3

All those things have been changed multiple times. SD have said they need to iterate slowly and gauge the impact of those changes. I’m not sure why every day is being met with a post or thread asking SD to commit to this or that, shouldn’t we be glad they’re not committing? Shouldn’t we be happy that they’re taking our feedback to the bored room and using it as a basis to discuss changes. This is Alpha stage, this is where things don’t work and things get tried, tweaked and tried again. Lets also not forget that we don’t see every build of the game.


(iwound) #4

nice post Anti, im looking forward to the new ideas about getting feedback.

There are camps that each have their own immovable opinions
sounds like the seed for a level. so we attack the camps problem solved.

i disagree because the time is now, these levels are being altered now and doesnt require extra hours for devs to make alterations.
since the alpha started i and others have made numerous suggestions which not only have been included in the maps but the people editing them have given feedback to us. some for the very first time.

i suggest a little patience as the more devs answer questions the later that next patch will be.


(en2ie) #5

I am not surprised at the kind of opinionated posts we see on these forums, especially from the competitive players - they are very passionate and want DB to be a success. Some of the posts are perhaps due to frustration at what seem like relatively simple things - like adjusting weapon spread etc - are taking too long to be implemented/iterated. At the end of the day though, we all want DB to evolve into a great game and DB is only in Alpha so there is plenty of time for that to happen.


(Samurai.) #6

Overall a useful post Anti, help’s us or reminds us of your ambitions and queries over the future for DB as well as get an insight into some of your intentions.

[QUOTE=Anti;440294]

[ul]
[li]We’d like to try a few things to do this (crouch jumping, maybe more adjusting to, or removing of acceleration, plus some other stuff). [/li]
It’s almost certain at this point that we won’t add strafe jumping, and we don’t want ‘dancing’ to be so effective that it alienates players (very few games have ever had this mechanic). [/ul][/QUOTE]

Personally, it’s a real shame you’re heading away from strafe jumping, i managed to play a few games of ETQW the other day after a couple of month’s without playing. Keeping the momentum and flow of movement through strafe jumping was so much fun, and definitely something i’ve missed in recent games. For the first half an hour of setting up ETQW i spent it mostly just strafe jumping around the maps on an empty server… it felt like the equivalent of fresh air for the movement system :smiley: - I’d love you to reconsider this aspect in the office.

I like the thought towards crouch jumping, i sometimes do this already in DB just out of habit mainly in panic situations even if it does nothing at the moment.


(Mustang) #7

It doesn’t have to be full on strafe jumping whereby increased speed can be gained, just being able to jump without LOSING speed would be a step in the right direction.

Any post that contains the phrase “crouch jump” gets the nod from me.


(Dormamu) #8

bumer :frowning:

I always thought you will take strafe jumping and SMART and combine them into something new and amazing… :frowning:


(Valdez) #9

[QUOTE=Anti;440294]This kind of post is good, I like it, we can discuss this :slight_smile:

We’ve read all of those threads (for better or for worse). What are we doing about the games movement, damage, spread and spawn times in relation to what has been discussed there? Well:

[ul]
[li]We want to make movement more skilled, fun and in depth, but maybe not quite to the extent some of you would like. We’d like to try a few things to do this (crouch jumping, maybe more adjusting to, or removing of acceleration, plus some other stuff). Some of these will take a lot of time because of how the game works, some are lower priority than finishing some other features, some will only happen after other tweaks are tested. I can’t tell you when you’re likely to see them in a patch, but I’d say we’re not done looking at movement. [/li]
It’s almost certain at this point that we won’t add strafe jumping, and we don’t want ‘dancing’ to be so effective that it alienates players (very few games have ever had this mechanic). If we were building a slightly different type of shooter we’d probably look at these mechanics as well, but we don’t feel it’ll work for DB or its business model.

[li]As for damage and spread, as stated in another thread yesterday we’re decreasing spread and creep for next patch, after we test that we’ll also look a little bit at hit boxes. This is an area of the game that will take lots of iteration and will carry on being iterated upon for…well, forever :)[/li]
We’re headed roughly to where you guys want us to be in this regard though, multi-kills should be possible etc but we might not go quite as far as say RTCW. We’ll have to see where we end up closer to open beta.

[li]Spawn times, like weapon behavior will be adjusted over and over between now and release. Our current feeling is Objective mode is OK for what we want it to be, although we do still discuss it. It’s not a burning issue for us right now though so other things have our focus. In Stopwatch I think we’re happy with how waves work, but we’re not sure about wave times yet, we need to do a lot more tweaking of them to get stats data to prove how they are fairing. I imagine wave times will get longer, I don’t think we’ll get quite as high as the 30 seconds that is often suggested (right now they’re all at 15 seconds and there are bugs that still set some to 0), but I can’t see them staying at 15 seconds either. We’ll see how it goes.[/li][/ul]

I hope that clears up the specific questions you asked. There are some other things I’d like to point out though whilst we’re at it, that might give you some context as to why the game is as it is right now:

[ul]
[li]The game is far from finished, please don’t consider what we have now to be the core of the final game, we’re still in alpha.[/li]
[li]The game will be far bigger than what you see right now, we still have to work on a lot of core systems and features, this is why some iterative changes that require more code work (like crouch jumping) are very slow to come about as we have other things we have to do first. We’re only a small dev team :)[/li]
[li]We’re not making a sequel to ET, ETQW or Brink, or the second coming of RTCW :tongue::)[/li]
[li]We are making a game that is in the spirit of ET and elements of ETQW, that is still our goal. However it’s very important to the game’s success that some of the ‘edges’ of those games are softened to make the game easier to acclimatize to for a lot of the current generation of FPS players, and so that it works for the Free-to-play business model. We believe faster and more skilled, with a need for team work, makes for the the most fun in PC FPS games, that is where we want to go. Bringing people with us, to that realization, is a tough challenge though.[/li][/ul]

Despite what some of you folks like to say there isn’t the 100% clear consensus between the alpha community about what the game should be. There are camps that each have their own immovable opinions, then there are plenty of folks who have opinions that straddle the many camps, so we have to be careful how far we go in each direction. That also affects the rate of change to some extent.

We plan to do a few things in the near future to get feedback from you folks in a slightly different way, that’ll be something else we can add to the feedback we get from forums, demos and stats to help us judge how the bulk of the community feel about the game’s direction. We can then use that clearer picture to help us plan our work and continue our iteration of that direction.[/QUOTE]

Anti, one of the main reasons why people get so excited when they see PC only is because they think that means no dumbed down movement. All these new school fps games are made for multi-platform, they cant have any advanced movement due to the inferior controls they are playing on. THIS IS A PC ONLY GAME. Please make it feel like a PC game not a console game. When I say it feels consolish I am talking about the strafe acceleration, the backpedal speed, the fact that every action takes you out of sprint and just the movement in general feeling very bland. You will alienate way more people by not putting in non-restrictive movement than you will if you have restrictive movement. Remember THIS IS A PC ONLY GAME.

Here is a quote from your London Bridge Gameplay video, it has the most thumbs up by far of any post. z0rpan2 “This game is garbage unless they give it some arcade type speed like wolf et and rtcw had. If your goal is to make a PC Shooter, then stop limiting it with console movement restrictions”


(Anti) #10

[QUOTE=Dormamu;440311]bumer :frowning:

I always thought you will take strafe jumping and SMART and combine them into something new and amazing… :([/QUOTE]

In a different sort of FPS I’d love to (although in my head it sounds a lot like Warsow)


(nailzor) #11

Great topic ImageOmega as always, awesome post from Anti… as always!

My only thought here is that Spawn Waves are currently “kinda waves” in my mind. I say this Anti because if your respawn time hits 0, then you can stay dead and spawn anytime after that.

With the timer not restarting again it is not a fully functional wave - yet. I think that if it goes down to 0 seconds, it should start over at 15 again - or whatever the spawn timer is for that map.

You either spawn in time, or you have to wait until the next spawn. Unless your body is gibbed.

If you are revived after your spawn timer hits 0, it should not be at 0 the next time you die right after that.


(Anti) #12

[QUOTE=nailzor;440319]

My only thought here is that Spawn Waves are currently “kinda waves” in my mind. I say this Anti because if your respawn time hits 0, then you can stay dead and spawn anytime after that.[/QUOTE]

Erk, good point, we miss stuff like this when we hack in quick tests :slight_smile:

I can see how this could be ‘abused’ in certain scenarios so I’ll see what we can do to try SW waves without this. Hopefully can get it in at the same time we fix the 0 second waves for defenders after bomb plants.


(Raviolay) #13

“Despite what some of you folks like to say there isn’t the 100% clear consensus between the alpha community about what the game should be. There are camps that each have their own immovable opinions, then there are plenty of folks who have opinions that straddle the many camps”

Nor should there be that would be worrying, this does get me thinking however after the core game has become more cohesive. I wonder if you could do a, game within a game so to speak. Modify the game to appease the the stone golems in our midst, with there preferred rule sets, and mechanical tweaks ad a prefix to the dirty bomb title to denote, it’s altered status. Then charge a set amount for access to servers, with the tweaked pro-gamer, elite, whatever they like to call themselves niche.


(Dormamu) #14

In my head it sounded more or less like this this without the need for special keys, dashing or F, just plain WASD+Ctrl/Shift/Space/mouse
I have faith in you guys, i will wait for the “more skilled movement, fun and in depth”, but when i hear “no strafe jumps” i’m starting to panic :smiley:


(Jonny_Hex) #15

On the subject of maps, please continue to identify the problems. Our LDs are very receptive to feedback, and very passionate about making changes to support the evolving core mechanics. Updating the existing levels as the gameplay evolves is a personal priority of mine. So keep it coming.


(Ruben0s) #16

Is there already a poll about strafejumping? I wonder what the alpha community thinks about it.


(Ecano) #17

[QUOTE=Anti;440294]
It’s almost certain at this point that we won’t add strafe jumping, and we don’t want ‘dancing’ to be so effective that it alienates players (very few games have ever had this mechanic). If we were building a slightly different type of shooter we’d probably look at these mechanics as well, but we don’t feel it’ll work for DB or its business model.[/QUOTE]

Scared to see ‘we won’t add strafe jumping’ and ’ business model’ in the same paragraph.
I also managed to play some ETQW games this week end, feel so comfortable with this movement freedom… i don’t know if you’re going to have success with DB but for me this single thing makes me see DB like whatever fps with no more that 3 months of lifetime. :frowning:


(zeroooo) #18

was already said about 4254235 times whats the problem with the maps^^


(Jonny_Hex) #19

Yes! Good post!


(ImageOmega) #20

Thanks for this Anti. I appreciate the info laden post. I’d like to post more feedback when I have a bit more time.

And to Johnny Hex. I will start making maps a focus of some posts. =]