Dealing With Quitters

(3Suns) #101

Gaming IS about fun.

In a video interview (which I can’t find now), and then in less detail in this article, Chet Faliszek himself said one of the biggest reasons they didn’t bring that game to PS3 was because it required teamwork and speech! Many of the PS3 owners don’t even own mics, let alone use them - that is the biggest reason Chet said that they didn’t want to port it. The game wasn’t meant to be played by those who didn’t want to cooperate and communicate. The designers themselves designed the game for full communication and co-operation.

L4D is a game of inches and seconds. You can try to be watching your teammates all the time, but that 2 seconds you ran ahead in silence while they were calling for help after they got pounced, can mean an incap, and a forced revive, which can often mean no one makes it to the safe house. I can’t tell you how many times I have had mic-less gamers on our team and our entire team was brought down because they couldn’t tell us they got hit by the S.I., or they couldn’t hear us when we asked for help.

Gaming is ALL about fun. And one doesn’t have to win to have fun. Losing is fine.

But losing unnecessarily is frustrating. Again, if you want to play without mics, then do so in a room where everyone else wants to play that way. There are enough gamers in the two categories for everyone to find a room that suits their needs.

(Brink on the other hand, is being designed for people who don’t want to use their own voice to communicate with randoms. Your actions will trigger voice commands that tell others what you are going to do, what you need.)

(3Suns) #102

You know, I am really shocked. Please forgive me in advance because I am going to rant here. Also, HORSE, I am not directing this at you or anyone else. I hope that there is a time when we want each other on our friends lists. Though I use specific examples, I am talking general attitudes.

Rant

This thread amazes me. Everything I am arguing for is to protect the gaming experience that the developers want to give us.

So many of you are arguing for negative things!

“I want to be able to quit whenever I want for no reason at all, whether it throws the game or not.”

“I want to be able to play the game without comms, whether my teammates like it or not, even when there is another room just over there in which comms aren’t necessary.”

It is like you don’t even respect the medium.

When I go into a movie theater, I don’t expect that I can just take of my socks and wave them around, or kick my feet up on the chair of the guy sitting in front of me, or blow my nose loudly every 5 seconds, or chat loudly with my friend sitting beside me. Everyone understands that there are certain unspoken rules of respectful behavior for viewing movies. Why are there none for playing games?

We post in game forums which probably means that we are more dedicated to the medium than others (i.e., at least slightly more hardcore than someone who doesn’t). With the advent of Internet gaming, and text chat and voice, we have basically broken down the isolating barriers of distance and culture. At any time, we can find people from all socio-economic and cultural backgrounds and play games that we like with them…with full voice!

We are pioneers shaping the form of this new entertainment. The medium becomes what we make it. If we don’t even care about how our actions affect others, how can we ever expect anyone else on our friends lists, let alone the wild wild west, to behave acceptably. This is what you are advocating for. You can have it.

As for me, I love games, gaming, and the people I game with too much to allow others to sh!t on my lawn just so I can have the freedom to sh!t on theirs. Have some respect and feel the joy and freedom of being held accountable.

I am amazed!

End rant

(Nail) #103

“I think that some (most?) of the comments are coming from PC gamers, where 1) everything is far more democratic to begin with, 2) because of 1, people take greater responsibility for their actions”

remember that ?

(Zoso Fan) #104

I think a voting system is fair.

In terms of being kicked for not having a mic on xbox, specifically in L4D, you have to realize how frustrating it is for the other players. In that game, if you team is not constantly in communication you have an extreme disadvantage. I consider myself a casual gamer, i game with a group of friends and honestly don’t care THAT much about winning. But when the game is close, and your team loses because you couldn’t see the guy with no mic was pulled back or something… its bullshit.

The entire design around Left 4 Dead is based around teamwork and communication. Without it, you are losing a large essence of the game and destroying the fun factor for a lot of gamers, not just the hardcore.

Look at Modern Warfare, listen to the way people communicate in that game, do the pros communicate constantly, yes, but your average team game has not even a tenth of the communication required for L4D. Does a booting someone without a mic in that game sense, probably not.

So while you can have fun without a mic by yourself, you have to realize you could possibly being killing the experience for the other people in the game, which just isn’t fair.

So back to the original topic (lol). I think the penalty box is actually a pretty ingenious concept. Say you have to leave for work, you have to take a big shit, you have to run downstairs to put out a fire… whatever. If you are doing something else, the time penalty won’t effect you. Obviously all of us have quit games at one time or another out of free will, so the system probably couldn’t be as black and white as it sounds, but i think SOMETHING should exist. Especially when a game is running on servers and the whole ****ing game gets shut down because your whomped on the other team. It promotes poor sportsmanship.

So it really depends on the game, like L4D, it appears Brink is going to require some serious communication. So while its definitely not going to hurt the experience entirely for your team when you run around in an ATV doing tricks in Bad Company 2, many games it really ****s up the experience for everyone else when you basically go lone wolf in a game built on teamwork and communication. Not only is it dishonorable as a gamer, its just ****ing selfish.

(H0RSE) #105

“I want to be able to quit whenever I want for no reason at all, whether it throws the game or not.”

“I want to be able to play the game without comms, whether my teammates like it or not, even when there is another room just over there in which comms aren’t necessary.”
Correct, I want all these things. Gaming is an entertainment medium, not a job or chore, and I want the freedoms and luxuries that come with that. It would be like watching TV and not being able to turn it off or switch channels until whatever show is on was over, and if you turned it off or switched mid-way through, you were blocked from that channel. Nobody would go for that, it’s completely ridiculous. If I’m in a game, I don’t want to worry about having to stick around to the end if I don’t want to, whether I’m bored, don’t like the people I’m playing with, don’t like the map, or whatever. I shouldn’t be obligated to play an entire round, or forced to use voice chat or anything like that. I didn’t sign a waiver or contract, and I don’t want to be treated as such. In the case where stricter rules should apply, well that’s where server settings come into play.

(DarkangelUK) #106

Im with horse on this one, it’s my choice if i want to stay or go, regardless of the reason.

(3Suns) #107

That is a flawed analogy. If you have your own TV, then yes, and it is analogous to playing single player games. You can switch games out anytime you like. If you want to play Assassin’s Creed that way, to quit whenever you want that is fine. It affects no one but yourself.

Have you never had to share a TV with a family member and wanted to watch something while they wanted to watch something else? When you play an MP game, you are playing with others, and your actions affect others. It seems to me like you approach other MP gamers as A.I., that are just there for your entertainment.

Ultimately, you are correct. You should be free to do all those things that you mentioned. Just know that some people want to play some of the games (L4D in particular) with other people who are willing to communicate as Valve intended for the game to be played.

To you and DarkAngel, thank you for reading my posts and rant. :slight_smile:

Nail, good reminder. :slight_smile:

Zos, you and I think alike (we also game together like brothers).

SockDog, yes.

(DarkangelUK) #108

[QUOTE=3Suns;214797]
Have you never had to share a TV with a family member and wanted to watch something while they wanted to watch something else? [/QUOTE]

Speaking of flawed analogies^^ Quitting the game doesn’t stop others from continuing to play. I can leave for any reason, need a pee, hungry, bored, want to play on another server cos a friend invited me, child hurt themselves… the list goes on. Tbh, it doesn’t matter what the reason is, if i want to leave then i’ll leave. And this isn’t just the ‘merry happy fun players’ either, regardless if you’re a hardcore gamer or not… if you need to leave you need to leave.

(3Suns) #109

Yep. :stroggtapir:

(Tanzverbot) #110

So in Japan you’re not allowed to leave if you don’t like the movie? Are people allowed to go take a leak if they have to, or is that also forbidden? Do you have to pay a fine if you leave during a movie? If so, what if someone has a stroke and needs to be brought to a hospital? Does he have to pay that fine too? I’m curious how this system works.

Also, i’d like to hear more about what constitutes a flawed analogy in your eyes.

(DarkangelUK) #111

What i’ve found is that when someone leaves, it can temporarily disrupt the game a little… but it’s the people left on the server that keep the disruption in place. I don’t know how many times i’ve been on QL and someone leaves, no one will switch teams to even the sides up leaving one team pissed off. Sure the quitter made it the teams uneven, but nothings stopping the remaining players from evening the odds again. I don’t know how many times i’ve lost games due to our team being a man down, hell even 2 men down cos no one will switch. I switch when the situation arises, and don’t care if i lose because of it… but far too many do care about losing, and would rather win 5v3 then play 4v4.

That’s one thing severely lacking in a lot of games, auto-balance. If a team is winning (sometimes raping) and one of the losing team quits, then someone should be moved over. In the good old days of Q3, there was common etiquette. The person with the lowest score would switch teams, and if teams had even numbers when you connect to the server, then you joined the losing team, and the winning team would never have the extra player… just doesn’t happen these days. Must win, must win, must win… screw fun, must win!

(darthmob) #112

It should be no problem on a good organised clanserver or one with autobalancing. The CoD server I used to play on had a 15 second delay before switching the player who joined last over to the other team when they were 2 players less. One-sided teams were never really an issue there. The problem with QL is that every server is the same. If the game sucks you simply join another one. I rarely stay for more than one round on the same server. This definitely doesn’t happen in games where you can set up your own server and choose favorites.

I wonder how autobalancing would work in Brink. It has been said that bots can replace players who left but it should still swap human players. There is no way bots can even a match when one team has 2+ human players less.

(signofzeta) #113

[quote=DarkangelUK;214812]What i’ve found is that when someone leaves, it can temporarily disrupt the game a little… but it’s the people left on the server that keep the disruption in place. I don’t know how many times i’ve been on QL and someone leaves, no one will switch teams to even the sides up leaving one team pissed off. Sure the quitter made it the teams uneven, but nothings stopping the remaining players from evening the odds again. I don’t know how many times i’ve lost games due to our team being a man down, hell even 2 men down cos no one will switch. I switch when the situation arises, and don’t care if i lose because of it… but far too many do care about losing, and would rather win 5v3 then play 4v4.

That’s one thing severely lacking in a lot of games, auto-balance. If a team is winning (sometimes raping) and one of the losing team quits, then someone should be moved over. In the good old days of Q3, there was common etiquette. The person with the lowest score would switch teams, and if teams had even numbers when you connect to the server, then you joined the losing team, and the winning team would never have the extra player… just doesn’t happen these days. Must win, must win, must win… screw fun, must win![/quote]

lol, the only thing about joining the losing team for me in ETQW, that is a huge downer, is that I’m pretty bad at the game, and I normally join the losing team. This means the losing team has one more than the winning team. Then some uber pro guy joins the winning team because it is the obvious spot left, and the teams are screwed even more.

Oh well.

(DarkangelUK) #114

You do know you can still swap teams to even it out? We used to do that a lot, if one team was steam rolling, we would swap it about to make it more even. Of course it was usually the same players on the server and we all more or less knew each other, so we were happy to swap things around to get a good game. Hell even when it wasn’t asked, a good player on the winning team would just go spec and tell someone on the other team to swap over.

Oh and i agree with mob, if there’s 6 humans on one team and 2 on the other, swap it around so it’s an even mix of bots and humans.

(3Suns) #115

[QUOTE=Tanzverbot;214810]So in Japan you’re not allowed to leave if you don’t like the movie? Are people allowed to go take a leak if they have to, or is that also forbidden? Do you have to pay a fine if you leave during a movie? If so, what if someone has a stroke and needs to be brought to a hospital? Does he have to pay that fine too? I’m curious how this system works.

Also, i’d like to hear more about what constitutes a flawed analogy in your eyes.[/QUOTE]

I ranted, so I can expect lots of questions.

I didn’t say that one couldn’t leave the movie theater. That would be completely acceptable, other behaviors (as I listed) however, would not. For the purpose of this discussion, movie theaters and servers are similar in that they both are meeting places for people. In movie theaters, there are certain behaviors that will detract from the experience of other patrons. Similarly, in game rooms, there are certain behaviors that will adversely affect the experience of other gamers.

A flawed analogy is the comparison of two things that seem to have similarities but in fact do not.

HORSE compared online multi-player gaming to watching TV by himself. He mentioned that since he can just change channels or turn off the TV, he should be able to do so when he plays MP games.

It is a flawed analogy because watching TV alone involves no one else but him. His actions affect no one. If, however, he plays online with other humans, everything he does affects their experience. I wrote that if he wanted to use watching TV alone as an object of comparison, then it would be better related to single player gaming (where he can swap out disks, turn off games without affecting anyone) not MP gaming.

On the other hand, if he were watching with others in his home, and he just got up to change the channels, or turn it off without asking the others, he might be surprised to hear their angry “Hey, why’d you turn it off?! Turn it back on!” He actually could have used TV as a solid analogy, but it would have supported my argument, not his.

(3Suns) #116

See, that is the kind of chivalrous gaming spirit I am talking about. I do it all the time, too. Give up my spot in the clan so that my friends can jump in. In L4D, I will play on the opposite team just so that my friends can play a full movie - which is becoming an endangered experience because of the quitters. The server won’t shut down if there is at least 1 player on the other team. So, I will spend a whole movie on the other team with the rotating door randoms, mic or no, just so that my friends can have a complete game.

(signofzeta) #117

[quote=DarkangelUK;214826]You do know you can still swap teams to even it out? We used to do that a lot, if one team was steam rolling, we would swap it about to make it more even. Of course it was usually the same players on the server and we all more or less knew each other, so we were happy to swap things around to get a good game. Hell even when it wasn’t asked, a good player on the winning team would just go spec and tell someone on the other team to swap over.

Oh and i agree with mob, if there’s 6 humans on one team and 2 on the other, swap it around so it’s an even mix of bots and humans.[/quote]

From the servers I play on, once the teams are even, and it is pretty stacked, it kind of gets messy to swap teams by having one guy go spec, another guy go spec, and do the switcheroo, so no one technically does it, and that was back when I played a lot. When I’m on the losing team, I don’t really care if I win or lose, as long as I have fun, and at least try to get close to winning. If the other team is too good, my thinking is that, as long as my team completes the first objective, even against impossible odds, or defends all the objectives for more than 10-15 minutes, then my team are already winners.

(Senyin) #118

I quess I’m old school and do follow “the rules” of common gaming courtesy.
But it comes naturally, I dont need reminders or stimulators for that.
My name is not Remi.
And I ‘grew up’ in games were this was still common behavior, quiters, uneven teams, unbalanced teams ect…all were never really an issue!
Anyway, exactly what DarkAngel is saying:
In the good old days of Q3, there was common etiquette. The person with the lowest score would switch teams, and if teams had even numbers when you connect to the server, then you joined the losing team, and the winning team would never have the extra player… just doesn’t happen these days. Must win, must win, must win… screw fun, must win!

The problem is, it has become rare now, which is really sad.
A really ugly mirror if you know what I mean.
So then you end up being the only one swapping teams quite often
to keep things even ect. To the point where it kills your own fun.
It’s the reason I quit Quake Live, it’s just not fun anymore with so many spineless
and selfish people who play games for all the wrong reasons!

(H0RSE) #119

On the other hand, if he were watching with others in his home, and he just got up to change the channels, or turn it off without asking the others, he might be surprised to hear their angry “Hey, why’d you turn it off?! Turn it back on!” He actually could have used TV as a solid analogy, but it would have supported my argument, not his.
Your “corrections” to my analogy don’t really correct anything, since if I were to get up and leave or turn the TV off, someone else could just turn it back on, or change the channel, just like if I quit a game, someone else could join or change teams.

When I go into a movie theater, I don’t expect that I can just take of my socks and wave them around, or kick my feet up on the chair of the guy sitting in front of me, or blow my nose loudly every 5 seconds, or chat loudly with my friend sitting beside me. Everyone understands that there are certain unspoken rules of respectful behavior for viewing movies. Why are there none for playing games?

This is flawed as well, because all the things you mention not being able to do in the movie theater, you can do while playing games. You’re trying to compare an actual, physical meeting place to a virtual one, and the rules change substantially between the 2. If I’m playing a game, I can wave my socks around, I can kick my feet up, I can blow my nose and even talk to my friend, even multiple friends, beside me. And even if people were to join a server with strict rules, or ‘No qutting’ enabled, people are still going to quit, because the repercussions in a virtual setting are practically meaningless compared to real life.

It’s like if I went to a meeting butt naked…that would be a problem. First off, it’s not socially acceptable, and second, it would probably get me arrested. Now if I had the same meeting via a conference call in my home office and I was butt naked…who cares? The same thing applies for my TV analogy. If someone is watching TV with a group of people, chances are they know each other and they’re watching something together. I mean, I don’t know a lot of people who watch TV with complete strangers… It’s not the same for playing games online…Most of the time it’s with a group of strangers, you don’t know their skill levels, you might have to play a map you don’t like, maybe teams are uneven, etc. all these other variables arise.

(INF3RN0) #120

I think that the issue here needs to shift from dealing directly with quitters, to what should happen when someone quits and the game becomes unbalanced. An auto-balance feature after a certain period of time where someone can connect or choose to swap might be useful. Punishment for quitting is never going to work, and a lot of times you can narrow the gap for quitters by removing stat tracking; not everyone quits for bad reasons. Still I think this argument is going to get anywhere so why not look at the problem and come up with a more realistic solution.