Concerns for and potential of Dirty Bomb


(Lafie) #1

I was going to post this as a reply to the first gameplay video, but it got a bit long. So I decided this discussion could use its own thread.

Splash Damage, please drop the idea of an authentic (pseudo-realistic) experience at all cost and across all aspects of Dirty Bomb! No competitive shooter became successful by chasing an authentic experience. Competitive shooters become successful by defining a set of rules within their own virtual world that empowers the player and is as deterministic and predictable as possible.

Realistic maneuverability, for instance, limits the player immensely, and the power of a video game can be found in the fact that physical laws do not have to be followed. Look at Quake and Tribes for instance. The consoles input method (controllers) have forced the movement speed of games to be decreased significantly, and Dirty Bomb has the chance of returning to the times of PC shooters with truly fast and acrobatic movement.

The same goes for map dimensions, object scale and clutter. It is preferred to ignore realistic dimensions and create more clear sight lines with fewer clutter. Remember that you are creating an arena for a game, not a virtual tour of London, so while the set dressing does increase immersion, it should never interfere with the gameplay in any way. Look at games like Counter-Strike and the original Enemy Territory for believable but entirely unrealistic scale and clear and uncluttered arenas, while still managing to convey a particular atmosphere.

The same counts for weapons. Choosing to only include weapons inspired by real-life counterparts simply limits your game incredibly. It limits the weaponry both in the way it looks, as well as, and most importantly, the way the weapons fire, handle or deal damage. There are so many interesting and creative weapons that can be designed, from projectiles with interesting characteristics, to ‘melee’ weapons with a boomerang like quality, for instance. None of that is possible however, if real-life weaponry is the only inspiration.

The number of weapons that can be carried has also decreased with the introduction of shooters to consoles, but PC has no such limitation, and allowing players to choose the right weapon for a particular encounter is very empowering. The introduction of aim-down-sight is also a staple of modern shooters, and is used often to increase the number of unlockables, especially in free-to-play games. But its worth to gameplay is questionable, especially because it occludes the screen. Aim-down-sight is generally not preferable and can be a real hindrance, especially when combined with fast movement speed.

Lastly, pseudo-realistic bullet damage is an issue that has plagued modern shooters for quite a while, with few exceptions. The original Enemy Territory is a definite exception, Brink is almost an exception to this, with bullet damage that is significantly lower than games like Battlefield or Call of Duty. The problem with pseudo-realistic bullet damage, where a player drops dead a split second after first getting hit, is that this removes battling from the combat gameplay. It is a deliberate choice of the gameplay designer to choose twitch gameplay over battling gameplay, but I think Dirty Bomb can really differentiate itself from the other modern shooters by promoting battling players over twitch kill/death.

One aspect of Dirty Bomb that I saw in the trailer that I am really delighted about and very much looking forward to, is the ‘single rolling objective’. A major issue of recent first person shooters is the chaotic distribution of players across the playing field/arena/map, where there are no clear team sides and combat is largely distributed over the entire map. The objective of escorting or stopping a tank is very effective at focusing the combat, as well as very clearly defining sides of the map for each team.

The problem that Brink had with its objectives, is that there were multiple ones, with all but the main objective having seemingly little effect and having little to do with each other. The multiple objectives and cramped and convoluted maps caused confusion as well as choke points and combat not focused around the main objective. The choke points in Brink were also largely contrived and were so strict that the progression through the map came to a screeching halt at each one, which could cause the dreaded cycle of running towards the choke point from spawn (choosing one of a few routes), arriving and kill or be killed, and repeat, with little chance of using your class’ abilities and making for all too predictable encounters.

Look at games like Team Fortress 2, Tribes: Ascend and Shootmania Storm for examples of clearly defined and predictable rule sets, that choose to ignore reality to empower the player, making for good competitive games. Dirty Bomb currently looks to sway towards a generic modern military shooter, which would be a real shame. This is avoidable, as it has various redeemable factors, not in the least the team behind it. I trust Splash Damage to deliver a true PC shooter experience, they have the proven track record!

P.S. I really love the development model Splash Damage seems to have chosen for Dirty Bomb: an iterative approach, with early community involvement. This model worked incredibly well for Counter-Strike: Global Offensive, Tribes: Ascend and others, and will undoubtedly pay off for Dirty Bomb.

Please discuss and post your own concerns for Dirty Bomb, as well as expressing its potential.


(KlausMorgenholz) #2

My only objection to OP: I actually like how ironsights were implemented in ETQW.


(Xyphen) #3

I agree with everything you stated here . I hope some1 important will read this and make changes to the product if necessary .

  • Also , make the chick model more army and realistic , dont go “korean anime” way :slight_smile:

(Zarlor) #4

Smooth, fast movement including strafing is a must. Will different weapon selections change the movement sprint speed? I saw crouching in the video, but I wonder if there will be prone or lean?

I like ironsights when it’s done well. I believe, like Klaus, that it was done well in ETQW. You did not have to use them in the close combats, but it was a tactical decision in the medium to long range game for that extra bit of accuracy at the expense of movement. It seems like Dirty Bomb will go this way. One thing I don’t like is having my view disturbed while being shot. I see it in the videos. It shakes for explosives and for gunfire it seems. I know it’s realistic, but as the OP said, sometimes gameplay suffers for the sake of realism.

I disagree with the OP somewhat on making the environment more barren. Some cover here and there is good. The mastery of moving through the environment should play into the game instead of having a clear twitch shot all the time. I gave up on CS because there were so many extreme choke points with AWPers around the corner, so I agree with the OP on the need to make sure the battles are long enough and determined by the player with the better sustained aim and movement.


(Dysfunkshion) #5

I disagree partially. Cover is necessary, but having a more barren environment encourages people to move around more. Or atleast move around during combat, instead of hiding behind cover.

This is a very accurate description of what I would want. ^^


(Lafie) #6

As long as not using aim-down-sight is a viable option at close to medium range, it could be a tactical option for the longer ranges. Although personally, I prefer the closer range combat, as it focuses more on movement. I am against weapons, like snipers, that kill in a single or very few hits from a long range, because just like twitch shooter games, it takes the battle out of the game.

In arena shooters, like Dirty Bomb, snipers are an unnatural option, as the ranges are rarely long. This means that snipers are generally balanced to be effective at medium range with few hits, which severely limits the freedom of movement of other players, as they are at risk of getting killed quickly when out in the open. While it may be a controversial opinion, I believe sniper rifles have no place in an arena shooter like Dirty Bomb. This doesn’t mean that single-shot/bolt-action rifles don’t have a place in the game, just not as very high powered, long range weapons.

Completely agree, the models of female soldiers should be as decked out and professional as the male models.

I think prone and lean slow down the gameplay unfavorably, promoting camping and hiding behind cover, instead of moving around the enemy and battling. I would prefer no prone or lean in Dirty Bomb.

Very good point. Nothing is more frustrating than having your aim disturbed because of being hit. It’s like kicking a downed man: I’m already being hit, why is the game making it harder for me to aim and accurately return fire. Nothing, not getting hit or having explosions go off close by, should affect my visibility or the position of my crosshair.

The only viable view disturbance I can think of, is either widening or narrowing the field of view slightly, depending on whether you are hit from the back or the front, respectively. This clearly indicates that you are being hit, without changing the position of your crosshair or reducing your visibility.

There should be no twitch shooting in Dirty Bomb at all, which means the environment can have slightly less cover, because you don’t drop dead as quickly, and you actually have room and time to fight.

I think the issue with choke points in Counter-Strike is more indicative of the inclusion of the AWP in the game, than it is about the level design. The effect of the AWP in Counter-Strike actually perfectly demonstrates my dislike for a high-powered sniper rifle in an arena shooter.

I agree with Dysfunkshion: this is a good succinct description of the type of gameplay I would like to see from Dirty Bomb. Giving movement a large focus, both in combat and in the flow of the levels, empowers the player and makes encounters and combat diverse. Combining a maneuverability focus with a rolling objective, that exposes new parts of the arena throughout the round, could result in the most diverse first person shooter experience in years.


(Kendle) #7

I pretty much want the opposite of the game described in this thread.

Arcade is good, fast and furious is good, I started out in RTCW and ET and have fond memories of those games, but to have decided all by yourself that DirtyBomb is an “arena” game and wanting to strip out anything that gets in the way of long drawn out 1-v-1’s with pea-shooters instead of guns that pack a punch is going back to a time and place that I’d hoped I’d seen the last of.


(DoomBot) #8

Iron-sight when done correctly is risk vs reward. If you sight-up in close combat, you might get nailed. From a distance it should be advantageous. Ultimately, it’s about providing options for all players, and supporting different playstyles. Mobilty and hip-shooting up-close and personal should be a viable option as well. My humble opinion.


(KlausMorgenholz) #9

Dirty Bomb is not supposed to be an arena shooter, but a tactical, teamplay loaded shooter, just like its predecesors. If you want arena shooters, there are alternatives, and there always were: Quake Live, Unreal Tournament saga, Shootmania, Nexuiz…


(acQu) #10

@Lafie: i think you are right in every way and summed it up better than i ever could, thousand thumps up. I hope a dev will read this well written post and maybe it will be heard.

Until now we only have that first gameplay trailer to judge actual gameplay. And as it is still pre-alpha there might be a lot of changes coming, which actual free up the game from all the possibly limiting factors such as the possibility of realism destroying your freedom of movement and such. Thinking of more funky weapons as well (again, modern shooter concept can limit that pretty hard) and no boring modern warfare.Also (and just as a weird example) you will not see implemented extremely fat female playermodels in such gaming environments, because when do you see such persons on the real battlefield (probably when it is already too late xD) and i would probably come back just for that fat player model over and over again lol, and much more. A realistic modern shooter is really a tightening concept, but it seemingly sells. Anyway, you summed it up far better than me. Again, hope a dev will read it (if not already) and breach through all these possible limits to make the game well rounded.


(Stumperd) #11

[QUOTE=Kendle;414547]I pretty much want the opposite of the game described in this thread.

Arcade is good, fast and furious is good, I started out in RTCW and ET and have fond memories of those games, but to have decided all by yourself that DirtyBomb is an “arena” game and wanting to strip out anything that gets in the way of long drawn out 1-v-1’s with pea-shooters instead of guns that pack a punch is going back to a time and place that I’d hoped I’d seen the last of.[/QUOTE]

If you want the opposite of what the OP described, I don’t think this is a game for you.


(kamikazee) #12

At this point I wonder how anybody can decide whether it’s a game for them. The teasers start to show more info, but even then it jumps from place to place, I think it’s too short to get a good idea of the game.

I’m going to wait. Let’s hope it’s not too hard to get access to a late-stage beta or demo.


(NeoRussia) #13

Can we please have very “korean and anime” clothing sets? I mean the game is f2p so you can have customizable models…
Less clothes = more armour, on female models
I enjoy that very much :wink:


(Litego) #14

Yeah iron sight is fine as long as it is not a requirement as it is in modern FPS games. It should be a long range option, nothing else, close to mid range should be about hip fire and good movement. All iron sight does in close to mid range is lower the skill ceiling by slowing down combat and making the shots easier to connect.


(DarkKnightDK) #15

[QUOTE=NeoRussia;415104]Can we please have very “korean and anime” clothing sets? I mean the game is f2p so you can have customizable models…
Less clothes = more armour, on female models
I enjoy that very much :wink:[/QUOTE]

This!! I like XD…But I prefer Japanese…


(Kendle) #16

I’ll make that decision, thanks, besides the trailer looks like it probably is the game for me, as long as they don’t dumb down the weapons any more than shown in the trailer.


(obliviondoll) #17

Why do people still believe this?

Seriously, WHY?

The ONLY limiting factor with console controllers is that you have to sacrifice accuracy to increase turning speed. Movement speed in even the fastest-paced arena shooters is ALMOST always slow enough that most good console shooters still allow high enough turning speed to track a target. There are a couple of exceptions, but with the right implementation, fast-paced shooters CAN be made viable on consoles. Unfortunately, nobody really aims for that, because those kinds of games were in decline on PC when the big name multiplayer titles started to make their way to consoles. Nobody’s really TRIED to do it properly. The only real attempts I can think of are Brink, which succeeded at fast pace, and third-person shooters, many of which could work equally well - though in a different way - with only minor tweaks to the mechanics to fit a first-person perspective.


(Fooooo) #18

[QUOTE=obliviondoll;415151]Why do people still believe this?

Seriously, WHY?

The ONLY limiting factor with console controllers is that you have to sacrifice accuracy to increase turning speed. Movement speed in even the fastest-paced arena shooters is ALMOST always slow enough that most good console shooters still allow high enough turning speed to track a target. There are a couple of exceptions, but with the right implementation, fast-paced shooters CAN be made viable on consoles. Unfortunately, nobody really aims for that, because those kinds of games were in decline on PC when the big name multiplayer titles started to make their way to consoles. Nobody’s really TRIED to do it properly. The only real attempts I can think of are Brink, which succeeded at fast pace, and third-person shooters, many of which could work equally well - though in a different way - with only minor tweaks to the mechanics to fit a first-person perspective.[/QUOTE]

I don’t mean to be rude, but are you seriously saying that a gamepad can play quake, quake 2, quake 3 just as good / fast as a mouse ?

Or ET or any other fast paced shooter??

I don’t think you realise how fast people are changing directions in those games. A gamepad could never be made to work like that reliably…ever…

You could make it change direction fast yes…but then you can’t make small movements and people would complain…hence ironsights / slow movement / fast TTK being king for almost every console fps…it just really wouldn’t be that much fun on a console otherwise…at least imo.


(Hundopercent) #19

[QUOTE=obliviondoll;415151]Why do people still believe this?

Seriously, WHY?

The ONLY limiting factor with console controllers is that you have to sacrifice accuracy to increase turning speed. Movement speed in even the fastest-paced arena shooters is ALMOST always slow enough that most good console shooters still allow high enough turning speed to track a target. There are a couple of exceptions, but with the right implementation, fast-paced shooters CAN be made viable on consoles. Unfortunately, nobody really aims for that, because those kinds of games were in decline on PC when the big name multiplayer titles started to make their way to consoles. Nobody’s really TRIED to do it properly. The only real attempts I can think of are Brink, which succeeded at fast pace, and third-person shooters, many of which could work equally well - though in a different way - with only minor tweaks to the mechanics to fit a first-person perspective.[/QUOTE]

Because ever since MMS’s hit it huge on consoles the games have gotten slower and slower, and the TTKs faster and faster in order to compensate for the lack of precision and tracking of the joystick (also to make casual players score frags so they don’t go negative KDR.)

If you are implying that a controller user has the precision of a mouse user I (along with many others) would say you are terribly wrong.

I’m not too concerned. This is SD and they make FPS’s not MMS’s. The TTK should be longer than what CoD/CS players are used to and more in line with what ET/Brink players are used to.


(Bloodbite) #20

I’d have to disagree with you there. They both were vitally important in W:ET. If anything, the lean from the glory days of W:ET was a far more practical and speed driven form of cover than any forcibly-glued-to-a-wall cover system developed since.

And prone… Also a necessity, not just for snipers. As an alternate form of cover for the noob tubers, the sneaky engies, the arty/air strike spammers… even the medics hiding in some ridiculous spot JUST protected from a snipe camper, throwing med packs across the way to a key-objective-classed teammate.

Some of those ole time mechanics can’t be topped, at least for a skilled/competitive audience.

In the end for camping… this is where FPS’s have a genuine comparison with real warfare… the cowards camp and stay behind, the skilled & team oriented players will milk the battle for every advantage possible. It’s all about what you/we do with it.