Competitive Issues & Discussion

(Mattc0m) #61

Homing Beacon and Comm Hack I’m okay with since Operative really sucks anyway (barely used).

Combat Intuition and Adrenaline need to go.

(crow) #62

i don’t think disabling is the way to go either; i think tweaks by Splash Damage would be much better.

change adrenaline from 100% damage soak, to 80% damage soak, so a person can die while on adrenaline, just very hard during their boost.

gun damage buffs should be at max 10 percent, not 31% as it is right now.

carb needs to be nerfed so the other guns are more viable.

accuracy needs to be improved in ALL the weapons so that shooting is a bit less spray N pray.

(BMXer) #63

[QUOTE=Mattc0m;312915]I’m against banning / restricting abilities & buffs. I think there needs to be certain limits on imbalanced abilities (there’s been a suggestion to remove all Rank 5 abilities. I agree, and perhaps all Rank 4 + 5 abilities)… but I think removing large # of buffs, abilities, etc. is harmful to the game.

It changes the balance, it changes it too drastically from vanilla, and it creates a divide between “casual” and “competition.” When you have to explain to a new spectator or competitor a completely changed ruleset that shifts the very metagame out of wack, there’s a problem with it.[/QUOTE]

I think what you are saying sounds good as a whole but if you actually take it apart piece by piece, I think you might find it could end up being the opposite of what you are saying.

Removing most if not all of the abilities shouldn’t create a “divide” at all IMO. Teams and players new to competition will only have to focus on the core aspect of the game. They wont have to overly stress about having or not having the right sillly abilities. It could even make it worse if a new team comes in thinking and strating around their pub abilities too much.
Same goes for spectating and casting. Casters explaining the core gameplay mechanic is going to be crazy enough. Add all these abilities in and a new viewer is going to be even more lost IMO.

Unless of course some new team would be put off by comp because of the lack of abilities they find useful on pubs. Kinda like etqw and the flyer. lol

Like I said before, without the abilities, the core gameplay mechanic of Brink is still there with buffs but all the excessivness is removed. Besides mines, turrets and flashbangs, I don’t see how any of the other abilities have any place in comp and I don’t see any of them as game changing.

Maybe someone should list out all the abilities and we can rate their comp worthyness and if we think they can be game changing or just useless?

(Mattc0m) #64

Again, 100% against the mass banning of buffs / abilities for the reasons I’ve stated. Too many competitive scenes nerf / break down the gameplay of the very game they play to it’s “core”, and without even knowing it they shoot themselves in the foot.

I think limiting Rank 4 and 5 abilities, along with Adrenaline and Combat Intuition (which have no place in competition), is all that’s needed. Everything else is overkill.

Maybe someone should list out all the abilities and we can rate their comp worthyness and if we think they can be game changing or just useless?

This right here. I hope this never happens. The discussion needs to be about what abilities BREAK the game (such as Combat Intuition and Adrenaline), not what abilities “have the right” to be in the game.

(hobodefcon) #65

I personally see buffs as another level of depth to the game. You have to manage your buffs, decide who gets what (kevlar vs weapon, to buff health early or late) or whether to save pips for grenades, turrets, mines or revives. A team on defense will usually always be lower in pips because the attackers, when respawning get all their pips. However, if a defensive team is staying alive, they don’t have to spend pips on buffs constantly whereas the attackers do.

If the game were 1v1, the buffs shouldn’t be there, but being a team game, if you lose a firefight because your opponent give him a weapon buff and you didn’t, you should look at it as a combined effort on their part vs the solo effort on your part. You could argue that giving out buffs requires no skill and doesn’t justify the benefit of the buff, it’s not like you could not of been buffed yourself. If you could not of been buffed due to your engineer dying or spending all their pips on landmines, it is to the credit of the other team for killing that engineer or using an entry way that would prompt the use of a landmine there.

Another thought, since I’m in a pro-buff mood, perhaps think about double command post buff again. Assuming the defensive team is playing really close to the objective, turtling in a way, the offensive team could take the command post with ease and get an advantage when attacking. Currently, the 1 pip they add is not much of an incentive for it to be a real factor, I think, so perhaps 2 pips may give them a bigger role, have more of an impact on the game?

(Redshft) #66

Why should a buff determine whether you lose or win a fight?

The health buffs give 30 health for the first pip, and decrease by 5 health points for up to 5 pips.

This means that a player with three pips (assuming having the universal ability that adds health) will have an added 75 health (30 + 25 + 20). Which equates to (on average) an added 2-3 bullets that you can take (from smgs).

The damage buff increases the damage of your gun by 30%!

I am not making an excuse for lack of teamplay, I am concerned that the outcome of fights in this game are governed by lack of buffs rather than lack of player skill (ie. AIMING).

On top of this, the spread of these guns are ridiculous when it encompasses the whole upper half of my opponents body. This practically screams “No aim required”.

Couple this with the fact that these maps are littered with small choke points (ie. Doorways), its easy to be dropped extremely quickly.

In the games current state, with its reliance on buffs, and random spray, it hurts the competitive player’s ability to spend any worthwhile time the game when it is plain that the outcome of fights are determined by buffs and a random number generator (the random spray).

(hobodefcon) #67

How is losing a fight because of a weapon buff different from losing a fight because your opponent got healed by a medic during the fight and you didn’t. I think people should stop trying to put Brink in a box.

And if you had better aim, putting 3 more smg bullets on your opponent shouldn’t be a problem. As for your random spray, the first few shots will go where you point it, so if a person aims for the head, burst, then sprays to finish off vs someone who sprays off the bat, who wins?

(chasm) #68

[QUOTE=hobodefcon;313177]How is losing a fight because of a weapon buff different from losing a fight because your opponent got healed by a medic during the fight and you didn’t. I think people should stop trying to put Brink in a box.

And if you had better aim, putting 3 more smg bullets on your opponent shouldn’t be a problem. As for your random spray, the first few shots will go where you point it, so if a person aims for the head, burst, then sprays to finish off vs someone who sprays off the bat, who wins?[/QUOTE]

The first shots most definitely do not go exactly where you are aiming (rarely) with all smgs and the exception of a couple AR’s and pistols.

Try it yourself: g_debugweaponaccuracy 2 in devmap mp/aquarium

(Anti) #69

These discussions always happen when a new FPS comes out and it’s a real shame so many comp FPS players are always so keen to keep the FPS genre locked in the year 2000.

Games that are more recent newcomers to eSports, like WoW Arena, DOTA and HoN, embrace team composition, itemisation and the additional level of tactics they bring to the game. I for one think it might be a great move if FPS ladders and tournaments could take a leaf our of their book.

:penguin:

(hobodefcon) #70

I feel within smg range, if I aim at the head, it’ll hit the head. Is that not true all the time? The first few shots may not be laser accurate but the head is big enough to compensate is it not?

(INF3RN0) #71

My thoughts on this and the game overall:
http://www.splashdamage.com/forums/showthread.php?t=26758

(Redshft) #72

You realize that the crosshair represents the weapons spread right?

(hobodefcon) #73

I’m sorry, I meant the first few shots are accurate. My bad for not being clear and suggesting that even after the first few initial shots that the smg stays laser accurate. Let me be clear this time. At close range, with a carb 9, shots 1-3 will hit where you point. Shots 4-7 will spread out a little bit. Afterwards, your shots will stay inside that big white circle on your screen but not necessarily where you point it, unless you burst. The skill is to get the first 7 shots on target. Therefore there is skill in shooting in Brink. But shooting is not everything in Brink. I hope I’ve been clear in this post.

(Redshft) #74

@Hobodefcon: It is more clear, thanks. I haven’t noticed the spread in exactly that pattern, but I turned off bullet markings as soon as I could.

The fact that we need to have a discussion about what should and should not be included in a competitive version of Brink worries me. I would much rather have a game that is competition worthy out of the box.

(Akali) #75

Havent read all the posts, but if theres a comp mod comming out, please take this into consideration:

  • Removing perks: Being able to shoot once you’re dead, the “sixth sense” and all that crap needs to dissapear. Ye, this was obvious.

  • Weapon balance:
    Grenade launchers should be removed.
    Rifles should have more ammo and more accuracy when iron sighted. I feel like if running and shooting is better at long distances than using the iron sight.
    The sniper rifle needs to have a bit more damage, its too slow and in the time you are trying to shoot someone again he got 200 buffs from medics. At least you should be able to kill an unbuffed light guy with one shot, at least.
    That should balance the SMGs a bit imo.

  • The most important issue: LIMIT CLASSES

I dont know if there was a limit for classes in ETQW but surely this game needs it. Most of the defensive teams are just playing with 4 or 5 medics, thats all they need. They revive themselves, revive each other, revive the whole team in a matter of seconds and have no problem with ammo at all since they all are using smgs. In the time it takes to reload or change weapons the 3 guys you just killed are reviving, thats crap. I think 2 max per class would be the best.

  • All maps are defensive-sided. Some people already mentioned a few fixes for this that could work.

Thats it.

(Beermachine) #76

This is only true for ironsighting, shooting from the hip the first bullet while generally not at the far edges of the crosshair is most definitely not 100% accurate. It’s a shame, as it pretty much means that all gameplay will ultimately revolve around slow movement, ironsighting and leaning (like every other recent FPS) rather than fast paced incredibly fun gameplay from the days of RtCW and ET.

This also gives a massive advantage to the defensive team where they can be stationary behind cover ironsighting on chokepoints, while the team rushing through has absolutely no accuracy on the move, again promoting a much slower cautious style of gameplay.

Editted correction - Just tested it more throughly, and it’s not true even with ironsighting (which is good as at least its balanced between ironsight / hip fire). The Carb9 first few bullets ironsighted or hip fired can end up anywhere in the crosshair (they are more often than not near the centre, but the rng can put them anywhere every now and then).

(hobodefcon) #77

If you stand infront of a wall and shoot, 3 bullets will go where the white dot is. If you move then shoot 3 bullets, it’ll be as accurate as your 4-7 bullets if you were standing.

(Shinta) #78

I dont know if there was a limit for classes in ETQW but surely this game needs it. Most of the defensive teams are just playing with 4 or 5 medics, thats all they need. They revive themselves, revive each other, revive the whole team in a matter of seconds and have no problem with ammo at all since they all are using smgs. In the time it takes to reload or change weapons the 3 guys you just killed are reviving, thats crap. I think 2 max per class would be the best.

If you are getting rolled by teams without the damage buff and without ammo reinforcement you are doing something very wrong. If a team chooses to play one side of one map as 5 soldiers that is an interesting thing not a bad thing for competitive play.

Same goes for spectating and casting. Casters explaining the core gameplay mechanic is going to be crazy enough. Add all these abilities in and a new viewer is going to be even more lost IMO.

If starcraft casters can explain timings, unit compositions, and the value of map control (a completely arbitrary thing to people that don’t play RTS games) I don’t think they would have a hard time explaining that the gold guy is invulnerable to anything but knock downs.

Creating excessive rules for competition creates a gigantic divide between casual and hardcore players. It’s like watching basketball and seeing some amazing player dunk. It becomes less impressive when you see the competitive basketball handbook that no one was allowed to block him because it is too easy to do so. You also alienate new teams because who wants to join a competitive community for a game they do not play?

Yes if an ability is game breaking it should be removed, but to remove things because they are ‘bothersome’ or ‘fluff’ is completely changing the game. Why not remove smart? It represents a very little portion of skill and doesn’t add to shooting at all.

On the subject of what to remove now though I feel it is too early to just go around banning things. You remove things just because they feel wrong rather then being able to prove they are. Let the game play out, let people try to wow us with some amazing counter measure they make up to deal with adrenaline. If during the first event all we see is 4 medics following around an engineer then we can discuss what is broken. Anything before that is pure speculation.

(Redshft) #79

[QUOTE=Shinta;313453]If you are getting rolled by teams without the damage buff and without ammo reinforcement you are doing something very wrong. If a team chooses to play one side of one map as 5 soldiers that is an interesting thing not a bad thing for competitive play.

If starcraft casters can explain timings, unit compositions, and the value of map control (a completely arbitrary thing to people that don’t play RTS games) I don’t think they would have a hard time explaining that the gold guy is invulnerable to anything but knock downs.

Creating excessive rules for competition creates a gigantic divide between casual and hardcore players. It’s like watching basketball and seeing some amazing player dunk. It becomes less impressive when you see the competitive basketball handbook that no one was allowed to block him because it is too easy to do so. You also alienate new teams because who wants to join a competitive community for a game they do not play?
[/QUOTE]
First, no one is stupid, they won’t run 5 soldiers, or 5 operatives. The problem is people are stacking medics.

Secondly, Starcraft casters don’t need to explain anything other than what the purple bar means. It is obvious what units do for the most part, they are ranged or they are melee. Everything in Starcraft is fairly obvious, you don’t need to know push timings or awesome unit compositions to enjoy the game.

This game is going to suffer because of the current lack of spectating options. Until they have a more robust system out, it will not be easy to cast.

Lastly, Baskeball is a terrible example. Every sport has rules and penalties, including basketball. No goal tending, no hitting someones arm when shooting, can’t stand withing the circle for more than a certain period of time, and you can’t take more than two steps without being called for traveling.

Also, I believe that Adrenaline is bugged. I have seen a tooltip saying “If someone is buffed with Adrenaline knock them down to counteract it.”

[QUOTE=Exedore;288358]It is indeed powerful, but you can’t heal the damage. If you take enough damage to die, you’ll die when it wears off, and need to be revived.

Like everything in the Brink though, there’s a counter: players buffed with Adrenaline can still be knocked over by melee or slide attacks.[/QUOTE]

This quote, taken from this post from a Splash Damage Developer:
http://www.splashdamage.com/forums/showthread.php?t=24356

(Shinta) #80

First, no one is stupid, they won’t run 5 soldiers, or 5 operatives. The problem is people are stacking medics.

Even if it was 5 medics running a team with a solid composition is such a niche tactic that it should be applauded not made out as a cop out.

Secondly, Starcraft casters don’t need to explain anything other than what the purple bar means. It is obvious what units do for the most part, they are ranged or they are melee. Everything in Starcraft is fairly obvious, you don’t need to know push timings or awesome unit compositions to enjoy the game.

Starcraft casters spend a significant portion of casts trying to tell the audience what amazing things the pro players are thinking about and planning around. The current metagame is often cited in relation to builds being used. Not that one game is better then the other, but starcraft 2 is just undeniable more complicated then a shooter (at least as far as elements of game play are concerned).

Lastly, Baskeball is a terrible example. Every sport has rules and penalties, including basketball. No goal tending, no hitting someones arm when shooting, can’t stand withing the circle for more than a certain period of time, and you can’t take more than two steps without being called for traveling.

What you listed were rules that are universally accepted. My entire point is the NBA doesn’t have the hypothetical rule I posted. Basically splash damage created the courts and the rules that should be abided and instead of playing basketball people are looking to play badminton because it is more skillful. I like badminton as much as the next guy, but people playing and watching competitive brink do so to experience brink. The difference between this game and the ones before should be highlighted not hidden in the shadows. If we (the competitive FPS community) don’t like it then we should find a game that is based around what we want.

This is not to say the game is perfect things could and should change, but what should change should more be a values game unless specifically denoted by splash damage. Perhaps a 5 second adrenaline is OP, perhaps if we change it to 0.5 it is completely balanced but to completely throw out the IDEA of adrenaline as a POSSIBILITY is foolish.