I don’t think adrenalin itself is a problem, and neither is the invincibility while doing objectives. The one thing that breaks it is the fact that if a obj player gets adren buffed while planting (or defusing), since it takes just as long to plant as the ability lasts the opposing team has to spam him to knock him about therefore stop him from planting, but since his teammates are around especially the medics to revive him after he eats 3-4 nades after the adrenaline is over it is tricky if not impossible to counter. An easy fix would be that if one who gets adrened takes enough damage, he will instantly be gibbed and cannot be revived. Adrenalin is a good ability that adds a very interesting mechanic, but it is slightly overpowered just due to the fact that a guy can soak up so much damage and just be revived after.
Competitive Issues & Discussion
[QUOTE=Mattc0m;313003]Again, 100% against the mass banning of buffs / abilities for the reasons I’ve stated. Too many competitive scenes nerf / break down the gameplay of the very game they play to it’s “core”, and without even knowing it they shoot themselves in the foot.
…
The discussion needs to be about what abilities BREAK the game (such as Combat Intuition and Adrenaline), not what abilities “have the right” to be in the game.[/QUOTE]
A - ****ing - men
That’s exactly the right attitude to take, we should ONLY be talking about game breaking issues, not game changing.
If you want to change the game to suit yourself, change the game you play and leave Brink the **** alone.
[QUOTE=Anti;313188]These discussions always happen when a new FPS comes out and it’s a real shame so many comp FPS players are always so keen to keep the FPS genre locked in the year 2000.
Games that are more recent newcomers to eSports, like WoW Arena, DOTA and HoN, embrace team composition, itemisation and the additional level of tactics they bring to the game. I for one think it might be a great move if FPS ladders and tournaments could take a leaf our of their book.
[/QUOTE]
I understand what you are trying to say here… Kinda.
But facts are those games have had all their items, skils - and the very limited itemisation they indeed do offer - balanced by the developers so that one item, or ability, does not throw over the entire game with one single “click”
I really hope that SD will take a look at the SMG vs AR balance, currently there is absolutely no reason to take an AR over SMG, especially in 5v5. Also the the Adrenalin buff needs to be looked at. I don’t want it removed because its very useful and could be a huge part of gameplay, but at its current state it lasts too long, you can’t knock back people with molotovs or slide AND it lasts long enough to plant/defuse at objectives, so obviously something has to be changed. What and how it should be changed i have no opinion about, but anyone that have been playing 5v5 can see that at its current state, its way too powerful.
I agree with the people that say we should be careful about removing stuff because we don’t like them and we should be careful not to create two different games (one for public and one for competition) HOWEVER… If we got a buff or a weapon that is insanely overpowered and cannot be countered in numerious ways, either the devs should take a look at it or we, or should i say the modders, should take action in making it more balanced.
:stroggtapir:
Im pretty sure every team could roll over another team with 5 soldiers, 5 operatives or 5 engineers. Do i look like i care if the other team has more ammo? The thing is, the medic revives himself and in the time it takes to kill someone else or reload hes reviving 3 of his mates, and thats everyone of them.
Just like people here is mentioning HoN or DotA, having different roles is what makes those games balanced. You need someone to tank, someone to carry, someone to support (medic anyone?) and that stuff. Playing against 5 medics feels like playing against the most OP hero with the most health and equal damage to the rest of the classes x5. Otherwise just expect every team to play with 4/5 medics, thats for sure.
[QUOTE=Akali;313931]Im pretty sure every team could roll over another team with 5 soldiers, 5 operatives or 5 engineers. Do i look like i care if the other team has more ammo? The thing is, the medic revives himself and in the time it takes to kill someone else or reload hes reviving 3 of his mates, and thats everyone of them.
Just like people here is mentioning HoN or DotA, having different roles is what makes those games balanced. You need someone to tank, someone to carry, someone to support (medic anyone?) and that stuff. Playing against 5 medics feels like playing against the most OP hero with the most health and equal damage to the rest of the classes x5. Otherwise just expect every team to play with 4/5 medics, thats for sure.[/QUOTE]
Thing is, it’s not equal damage. A balanced team will have improved weapon buff, kevlar, and ammo along with extra health and revives, let’s say 2 engi, 1 soldier and 2 medics for example. Ammo will play a factor in a 5 medic team, since eventually they will have to die, or go back to CP to refill.
So on one side, we have people complaining about buffs, on the other side, people saying that 5 medics will be op. Only time will tell, but I think SD has done a good job thinking about these things.
Hopefully the brink.tv tournament will see how this affects overall gameplay. I would have hoped that adrenaline not be removed, but I can understand why. Aside from that, I’m happy that the ruleset is currently unchanged (with the exception of hackbox removal, which is a good thing), so kudos to them.
I think probably the biggest issue you guys fail to see is that there’s literaly zero skill needed in this game to outshoot people. Cone is too big to land headshots and visible recoil is negligible; it’s purely about whoever’s spread random number generator favors and they will win.
Game won’t go anywhere if this isnt changed in a few months, max. Mark my words. This game makes ****ing cod4+ look hard to at least shoot in. That’s pathetic.
[QUOTE=justince;314626]I think probably the biggest issue you guys fail to see is that there’s literaly zero skill needed in this game to outshoot people. Cone is too big to land headshots and visible recoil is negligible; it’s purely about whoever’s spread random number generator favors and they will win.
Game won’t go anywhere if this isnt changed in a few months, max. Mark my words. This game makes ****ing cod4+ look hard to at least shoot in. That’s pathetic.[/QUOTE]
This argument is very weak. For some reasons, the teams with better aim, skill, teamwork, and strategy always seems to prove victorious. Guess it’s those random cones / inaccurate guns that cause them to win game after game.
That’s quite ignorant to say. Of course teams with better strategy and teamwork will win; that is what the emphasis on this game is. However, there is no individual that can even remotely carry a team like you could in cs, or get a 3k spraydown and feel good about it becuase you’ve mastered a recoil pattern, this is just purely RNG declaring a random spread that has purely to do with luck, your first 6 shot could be dead on or could be clustered around. And I’m not saying this game should have the individual skill cap of a cs, but there SHOULD be a reward for a better individual player, not just better teamplay.
You can take your so-called best brink player you see, put him on a random pug squad, and they’ll lose to a random team.
Take any top invite 1.6 player on an im team and he will carry them. Hard.
Don’t know how you can dispute that…
[QUOTE=justince;314629]That’s quite ignorant to say. Of course teams with better strategy and teamwork will win; that is what the emphasis on this game is. However, there is no individual that can even remotely carry a team like you could in cs, or get a 3k spraydown and feel good about it becuase you’ve mastered a recoil pattern, this is just purely RNG declaring a random spread that has purely to do with luck, your first 6 shot could be dead on or could be clustered around. And I’m not saying this game should have the individual skill cap of a cs, but there SHOULD be a reward for a better individual player, not just better teamplay.
You can take your so-called best brink player you see, put him on a random pug squad, and they’ll lose to a random team.
Take any top invite 1.6 player on an im team and he will carry them. Hard.
Don’t know how you can dispute that…[/QUOTE]
You mean to propose that teamwork trumps individual skill? In a class/team-based shooter?
Read what i say before you argue.
I used cs as a reference because it’s the most obvious.
CS is also a team based shooter. 50/50, disputable tho.
No, I’m completely with this game being predominantly a teamwork based shooter in which it’s 80% of the battle. But right now, not to be cruel, but some of the worst fps players that have subpar aim can compete at a top tier IF THEY WORK WELL with their team. There’s zero ( realistically, its sad i’m not lying, unless your saying your average open kid in terms of individual skill should be able to compete with an invite because they have good teamwork) room for the individual to shine, and that isn’t competitive. At least ET was a big headshot game; it required some skill to shoot as well as movement was probably a bit more intrinsic with the engine. All i’m saying is a simple reduction of damage and tightening of the cone of fire would greatly enhance this game’s headshot dependability and would increase the skillgap substantially.
I’d hate to be frank, but this game will get criticized more than tf2 from more competitive communities of games such as quake or cs because it takes no individual skill to shine.
I have to agree with Justince here. This game takes maybe 1% of the skill that games like cs and quake take.
What sets amazing players apart from others in this game? Shooting? No, anyone with a pulse can spray & kill people easily as long as they can place their crosshairs near a target. Look at the recoil patterns and spreads, they are an utter joke. When you begin a fight whoever shoots first wins unless you end up having an epiliptic fit mid fight—even then you could probably headshot your enemy before you spaz out.
Movement? No, it took only about a day to master light movement across maps like aquarium for the most efficient manner. Worse players might take a bit longer to learn it but its very easy to learn movement in brink. Brink hands you the easiest and most intuitive methods for travel with no true skill cap.
Teamwork? Seems like it, to some extent. But since when was teamwork purely the only determining factor in a game? Look at TF2, even among a primarily teamwork based game there are potentials for individual skill to change the outcome of matches. Soldier rockets hitting midair shots, scouts making clutch kills and dodges, medics with last second ubers… the list goes on.
Where in Brink do we find the skill cap? Is it solely based on who has more mines on defense? Who gibs bodies faster than medics can revive? Who can grenade launcher before the other?
Where is the skill involved? What teamwork do you even see here that would make people excited to both play and watch this game? What is going to draw in spectators? Who is going to watch a game where anyone can play it to the skill cap?
Right now anybody can shoot anyone else and movement is extremely cookie-cutter. Individual skill plays nearly no part in this game and thus results in a terrible gameplay. Right now there is nothing to set good players apart from bad ones.
You want to know why almost everyone uses the carb-9? Every gun in this game has nearly the same patterns when sprayed. Why not use the gun that does the most damage per second with the highest possible kill-per-clip count in a gun aside from the heavy weapons.
How about adding some skill to shooting and fixing things that are toxic to gameplay. Make guns actual take some thought to shoot and have different benefits/risks/skillcaps. Make movement more dynamic in maps to allow for individuals to increase the effect they can have on maps. Do something about defense being absolutely imbalanced in maps.
Make this game less of a joke in the competitive world, because right now I’m pretty sure I could pull some POD bots on 1 from 1.6 and they would do just as good as anyone with a carb9.
Right now anybody can shoot anyone else and movement is extremely cookie-cutter. Individual skill plays nearly no part in this game and thus results in a terrible gameplay. Right now there is nothing to set good players apart from bad ones.
Perhaps your theory that the skill is cap’d is true. Perhaps at some later date splash damage will have to reconsider the recoil and spread they put into the game; however, it is FAR to early in the game to simply say that skill is not involved. At the birth of any competitive game the most simple and rudimentary strategies are created. You simply can’t see what innovation might come in the future. Take SC2 for instance for the first three months of the game people were doing 1 base all-ins. Gradually they transitioned to two base all-ins and now three base is all the rage. This may seem minor, but in fact it is like playing three entirely different games sense release.
The skill cap hasn’t even been reached yet. I simply don’t see people moving like this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lBQqD8mv0XM
during a match constantly and consistently. Is it a niche thing that probably would only shave off a couple of seconds in travel in the beginning of a match? You bet it is, but that is what separates pro players from mediocre players a couple seconds.
[QUOTE=Shinta;314743]Perhaps your theory that the skill is cap’d is true. Perhaps at some later date splash damage will have to reconsider the recoil and spread they put into the game; however, it is FAR to early in the game to simply say that skill is not involved. At the birth of any competitive game the most simple and rudimentary strategies are created. You simply can’t see what innovation might come in the future. Take SC2 for instance for the first three months of the game people were doing 1 base all-ins. Gradually they transitioned to two base all-ins and now three base is all the rage. This may seem minor, but in fact it is like playing three entirely different games sense release.
The skill cap hasn’t even been reached yet. I simply don’t see people moving like this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lBQqD8mv0XM
during a match constantly and consistently. Is it a niche thing that probably would only shave off a couple of seconds in travel in the beginning of a match? You bet it is, but that is what separates pro players from mediocre players a couple seconds.[/QUOTE]
There are no maps tailored to be able to do that. Even so, take his route and copy it, it shouldnt take you longer than 15 minutes to get ~20 seconds. It’s not hard. At all.
Even so, take his route and copy it, it shouldnt take you longer than 15 minutes to get ~20 seconds. It’s not hard. At all.
Is it a niche thing that probably would only shave off a couple of seconds in travel in the beginning of a match? You bet it is, but that is what separates pro players from mediocre players a couple seconds.
You can also say the maps are not tailored to it. It is very easy to say that, but a pro gamer will find something to push smart in their direction of gameplay. Maybe you wont be flying constantly, but pretty much every other step can be a wall hop and probably should be. But hey I can not predict the future so I will wait and see how the game develops.
I kinda do that now, wallhop whenever i can to keep moving.
This has nothing to do with it taking no skill to shoot. Movement skills are still subpar, nowhere near a game that bloats about taking skill to move i.e quake.
It is not to early to tell that it takes no skill to shoot.
It is not to early to tell that it takes no skill to shoot.
Perhaps the skill to brink will be smarting around while shooting in the air. Perhaps it will be that we all move to revolvers because they are the only guns with adequate accuracy for competitive play. My point isn’t that everything is turning up roses, my point is that before competition you can NOT say what is and what is not skill cap’d. I even tend to agree with you that shooting is a tad random, but no one can conclusively state how competitive it is when there hasn’t been a competition yet. It is speculation. Purely.
How is it purely speculation when you’ve tested every weapon for hours and come to the conclusion that spread is random and there is no incentive to headshot with no visable recoil?
Please bro. What your saying is hypothetical and what your saying are pushing the limits of the engine. When there’s minimal walls to jump off of whats the need for shooting in air? If the game was revolver based, that’s just a fail on the dev’s parts.
Don’t know why so many of you are defending the game because there’s no new competitive games that are good and your defending it because you want to, not because you are right.
Don’t you wanna see the game succeed? Why are you defending the negative qualities about the game?
The guns obviously need a rework. It’s retardedly blatant unless if your some pubnub.
It needs changes.
If it stays in this state, it’s going nowhere.
Period.
No it wont. If you were the LEAST bit informed about this game. You would know that while performing ANY SMART moves your accuracy to the worst possible amount.
I agree with Justince, this game has no room for individual player skill. Hip firing and even iron sighting is too random and can not be controlled to a point where aim will be anything more than “Keep your cursor on the target while holding mouse1.”
Map design and the terrible accuracy with SMART moves make any sort of trick shots useless or impossible.
Its not that players are trying to convert games to a year 2000 equivalent, it is that we are fed up with random bull****. Random bullet sprays, weapon damage buffs (30%???), Sniper rifles that can on hit kill a medium (???), no limit on sniper rifles, PISTOLS THAT DO 100+ DAMAGE (See: Sea Eagle and the Revolver) WITH LESS DAMAGE DROPOFF THAN SMGS.
I can go on and on, but this is the basis for our frustration, not a want to “bring gaming back to gold ole days”.
How is it purely speculation when you’ve tested every weapon for hours and come to the conclusion that spread is random and there is no incentive to headshot with no visable recoil?
How can you deem something uncompetitive without ever participating in a real competition. Hell without even witnessing a real competition.
What your saying is hypothetical and what your saying are pushing the limits of the engine. When there’s minimal walls to jump off of whats the need for shooting in air?
This is the world where the pro gamers live. Not a playground of possibility, but a harsh savana of coding where they ink out some semblance of an advantage. If you want to be great (note: not good) then you pioneer THIS game and find tactics that no one else has thought of or that no one else can do. Do people care if 4-100th place are all at the same skill level? No they care that first and second are in a world of their own. Untouchable through skill. Until you are at that plateau you simply cant say it is there. Being there in another game doesn’t qualify you because this is a new frontier.
Don’t know why so many of you are defending the game because there’s no new competitive games that are good and your defending it because you want to, not because you are right.
I simply love the idea of brink. Yes I have my problems with it, but it is new and refreshing. It isn’t 100% what i wanted, but what ever is. I have 31 other LOLHEADSHOTICANCARRY FPSs that I could go play if that is what I wanted. I’m not saying love it or GTFO, but if you choose to play a class and team based shooter you should embrace it not kick it for being something different.
No it wont. If you were the LEAST bit informed about this game. You would know that while performing ANY SMART moves your accuracy to the worst possible amount.
My points aren’t that I can predict what will happen with the game, my point is there are possibilities unexplored. Yes accuracy is lower when smarting, but you can not conclusively say its impossible because you haven’t tried everything in the game. Until you have tried everything how can you judge it as being uncompetitive?
Over a week of scrimmaging is enough to get a decent idea about how easy it is to play a game competitively. A truly great competitive game is not random, outcomes can be controlled by players. A player in brink can NOT control their bullet spray closely enough. The skill ceiling with SMGs in this game is very low due to this.
[QUOTE=Shinta;314808]
This is the world where the pro gamers live. Not a playground of possibility, but a harsh savana of coding where they ink out some semblance of an advantage. If you want to be great (note: not good) then you pioneer THIS game and find tactics that no one else has thought of or that no one else can do. Do people care if 4-100th place are all at the same skill level? No they care that first and second are in a world of their own. Untouchable through skill. Until you are at that plateau you simply cant say it is there. Being there in another game doesn’t qualify you because this is a new frontier. [/QUOTE]
LOL, Ok.
[QUOTE=Shinta;314808]
I simply love the idea of brink. Yes I have my problems with it, but it is new and refreshing. It isn’t 100% what i wanted, but what ever is. I have 31 other LOLHEADSHOTICANCARRY FPSs that I could go play if that is what I wanted. I’m not saying love it or GTFO, but if you choose to play a class and team based shooter you should embrace it not kick it for being something different.
?[/QUOTE]
I’m not “kicking it” for being something different. I am “kicking it” because of its randomness.
[QUOTE=Shinta;314808]
My points aren’t that I can predict what will happen with the game, my point is there are possibilities unexplored. Yes accuracy is lower when smarting, but you can not conclusively say its impossible because you haven’t tried everything in the game. Until you have tried everything how can you judge it as being uncompetitive?[/QUOTE]
My point is that yes, I can conclusively say that it is near impossible to get a head shot with a revolver ON A CONSISTENT BASIS.