Competitive Issues & Discussion

(BMXer) #41

[QUOTE=Redshft;311542]Does anyone else think the buffs should be taken out in this game? Personally they seem to overshadow any player skill that might shine in this game. Losing a fight because you weren’t able to get a damage buff because your engineer was dead is pretty silly. It is pretty much bordering on being RPG like.

Scriming this game makes me feel like i’m played Quake Live CTF with runes where if I dont have a rune i’m at a huge disadvantage.

My thoughts:
Engineer Damage buff should be removed
Engineer Kevlar buff removed
Extra Pips given by medic removed
Soldier kevlar ability removed
Ability to add extra health pip removed

Some of this, like the medic health buff, can only be achieved with an SDK. We obviously can not keep players from healing teammates.

TLDR: Competitive play in this game is not attainable when you lose fights for not having buffs.[/QUOTE]

I pretty much agree with what you said. But I think the abilities are the problem. The stock buffs are fine iMO and are a core mechanic of this game. Removing buffs all together changes the core game a bit too much.
But if you just remove the abilities. The core gameplay is retained. Buffs are still there for 3 of the 4 classes. Just the excessive amount of buffing is nerfed.

All these abilites are cool on pubs when people need more XP and more stuff to do. They serve no purpose in a competitive match were skill is more important than XP IMHO.

I think this might do the trick…

seta g_abilitiesGlobal "1"
seta g_abilitiesSoldier "1"
seta g_abilitiesEngineer "1"
seta g_abilitiesMedic "1"
seta g_abilitiesOperative "1"
seta g_abilitiesmedic "1"
(Necro-) #42

i don’t really see the point in limiting all the abilities, i can agree with the buff extensions but if you limit everyone to rank 1 you miss a lot of unique abilities such as turrets and the like.

(Ragoo) #43

I think the Universal Abilities can definitely be limited to rank 1 but I feel other stuff can and therefore should stay in for diversity.

Soldier - Scavenge, Flashbang (if balanced correctly) and maybe Grenade Mastery and/or Grenade Damaga and/or Frag Blast depending on how good you want Soldier to be at nades and if this makes the game too spammy

Engineer - Medium Turret

Medic - Metabolism, Speed Boost, Transfer Supply (seems underpowered anyway?!) and maybe the two Increased Supplies if that’s needed to make Medic balanced

Operative - Caltrop, Hack Turret, EMP, and maybe Sticky Bomb I don’t see much of a purpose for Operative atm, I hope Operative gets to remove Hacking Device in the future

I feel those should definitely stay and I also think the dynamics with Kevlar and Armor Piercing Ammo could work.

lol I just counted and realized that if you take all the abilities I listed + Universal rank 1 minus Combat Intuition (which should be removed) and Sense of Perspective you have 20 abilities total :slight_smile:

(Shinta) #44

Why is it automatically considered unskillful to use things like flash bangs and turrets? Isn’t the whole point of brink to work as a team and mix the abilities of all the classes to create some grand effect?

If you just homogenize everything brink just turns into every other shooter. Mine as well go back to counter strike at the rate the thread is going.

(BMXer) #45

Sorry to much up this thread more but I just wanted to say that I think everything Ragoo listed would be OK and none of the abilities he listed I personally have an issue with. If we could limit it to what he listed, i’d be way down with that.

But I still personally think the only abilities Ragoo listed that actually matter and might see some use are mines, turrets and flash bangs. The rest of it is just random stuff that I don’t think would make one bit of difference one way of the other.

I like the idea of turret, flash bangs and mines but I am willing to sacrifice those abilities at this point if thats what it takes to get rid of the ridiculous/pub stuff and the excessive buffage.

(Hundopercent) #46

Something I experienced last night since we’re on the topic of buffs. Trying to break through the defense became more and more difficult the longer the match went on. Aside from defense being incredibly simple, if we were unable to kill the entire other team on the push they would be able to respawn and rebuff 2-3 people vs 5. After 3 minutes the entire defense was fully buffed while our offense was only half buffed. I was able to buff 4 guns not including mine, give out 0 kevlar or 1 kevlar on our Operative but then a medic would lose the weapon buff. On top of that I was now unable to prime nades (vital to pushing.)

Removing the buffs would actually nerf defense and buff offense and balance the playing field. It would also allow soldiers to become slightly more useful as they have an innate kevlar armor.

Also, from my previous post the KOSS is viable. Being able to stream headshots is nice. You have to have the aim for it though.

(DonkeyDong) #47

Yes, I think it would. Spawn timers would fix a lot of bugs in this game. The only problem with a 30 second timer then becomes the crane. I am not sure how long it takes for both sides to get there.

A dynamic spawn timer changer would be l33t. The closer the bot gets to either spawn, both teams spawn timers adjust.

And all escort objectives are pretty fun. Just need to put a progress bar with %'age for the escort and it’d be like gold rush (if i’m correct in the relation)

(DonkeyDong) #48

[QUOTE=strychzilla;308539]Discussion Topics

Gibbing should take 2-3 bullets tops. Currently, it takes anywhere from 15-30 bullets (far too many imo) to kill someone and another 10 to gib. You either die trying to gib or have to reload and by then they are being revived while you’re under fire.

The choke points are brutal, getting passed the bridge stage on Resort is almost impossible since it’s out in the open right outside where the defense spawns. Since snipers are almost useless, trying to pick them off on that ledge is quite a task.

3. Gun Balance

Not sure what top teams you’re watching, however, I play with a lot of the old school RtCW players that attended Qcon and played invite etc. We exclusively use CARB-9 and I use the Gerund from time to time depending on range. KOSS may be usable I plan on testing it a bit tonight.

The main problem at the moment isn’t necessarily SMGs but rather every map is 80-90% close corner combat with the most idiotic choke points. It’s like mp_sub on every map. I don’t mean to be disrespectful but how did these maps pass QA without a flag being raised?

So, a mixture of strong SMGs and 80-90% close corner combat makes SMGs shine. Sadly, as always, shotguns are poorly designed and worthless. It takes 3 blasts to kill someone unless stars and moons align and you 1 shot them. By the time your second shot is ready the CARB already killed you.

Head shots mean next to nothing which seems to be a problem as well. AR’s shine when you can 2 shot someone in the head. It takes 3-5 in Brink so again, by the time you land that 4/5th pulse shot the SMG killed you as well. This wouldn’t be as much of a problem if

1.) ARs are more stable/accurate (maybe 5 shot bursts instead of 1-3)
2.) Bonus head shot damage
3.) Maps with more space between players.

Rifles are hopeless, with lag and low FPS issues there is no telling (for me) how to place them. The models/hit boxes seem very difficult to guarantee head shots unless you have an aerial advantage. That mixed with high mobile players and small maps make them extremely inferior.

Pistols, aside from horrible kick back/recoil seem pretty awesome. The knife should be a 1 stab head/neck, 2 stab back, 3 stab front/side.

Machine guns seem to work as intended. Situational same as the venom. Heavy Medic with machine gun is scary. :slight_smile:

Edit: On another note, the spread on all auto’s seem to be far to big. Honestly, when it comes to FPSs superior teamplay and skill/aim should win. Currently, it’s spray and pray at the chest and hope for headshots. If you try to burst headshots (since the modifier is so low) you will die first. Something to look into as well.

4. Abilities Restrictions
Right now, there is no way to specifically limit abilities. However, there can be a “Max Rank”. In the standard competition format, I believe Rank 5 abilities are disabled.

I’m sure some abilities will need to be banned. Adrenaline as you discuss in #5 can not be used in league play. It makes objective planting and offense in general simple on certain objectives. Stage 1 Resort.

Silent running - Using sound to your advantage makes it more fun.
Combat intuition (The one that lets you know you’re being targeted)
Flash bang - Needs to be tweaked or removed. This can hit from 30 yards away and blind you for what feels like 8 seconds. Way too powerful.
Speaking of abilities the speed boost should be moved to operative and be a permanent buff for them (self only.)

5. Adrenaline

See #4

6. Team Size

5v5 is fine, I had thought this could be done 4v4.

7. Hacktool vs Engineer

I agree here. I believe Operatives should be able to hack in 40-45 seconds and engineers should not be able to reverse the progress. If anything have Operatives be able to counter hack that way they are used more often (at 1/4th speed.) Right now Engineers are the king class - weapon buff, armor buff, and have an objective on almost every map if not every map.

8. Body Types

I agree I don’t see the need to restrict. In all of our scrims we all go light/medium anyway for superior map control/flanks. Heavy’s are just very vulnerable due to their lack of strafe speed.

Edit: A majority of this stuff could probably be fixed with a pro mod. More crosshairs, and having a crosshair while Iron Sighted would be nice. If you do ui_showgun 0 and iron sight you have nothing which is quite sad coming from SD.[/QUOTE]

Thank god shot guns are useless. 1hit kills is low in skill and tracking and I think that they shouldn’t be regularly used.

(crow) #49

[QUOTE=DonkeyDong;312494]Yes, I think it would. Spawn timers would fix a lot of bugs in this game. The only problem with a 30 second timer then becomes the crane. I am not sure how long it takes for both sides to get there.

A dynamic spawn timer changer would be l33t. The closer the bot gets to either spawn, both teams spawn timers adjust.

And all escort objectives are pretty fun. Just need to put a progress bar with %'age for the escort and it’d be like gold rush (if i’m correct in the relation)[/QUOTE]

it doesn’t matter, the reason is you need to SET A TIME so the other team BEATS IT.

currently, this is not stopwatch since there’s FULL HOLDS all the time.

(DonkeyDong) #50

[QUOTE=Redshft;311542]
TLDR: Competitive play in this game is not attainable when you lose fights for not having buffs.[/QUOTE]

Don’t see smart posts like this often. Saying ‘buff’s’ and command posts adds to an fps is like saying putting one hand behind your back and playing with the other is adding skill. The only skill you’re actually adding is conquring the silly arse constraint or ‘buff’ that you’re adding in. Take out the ‘puff’ and you then see what an First Person Shooter (FPS) stands for… not (FPB… First Person Buffer).

But on a side note, I actually think this stuff is neat. Maybe having ‘open league’ where everything with some silly stuff taken out and having a ‘closed league’ where you will find the better teams fyi; and in that league introducing the skill enhancing removal of items.

(DonkeyDong) #51

[QUOTE=crow;312543]it doesn’t matter, the reason is you need to SET A TIME so the other team BEATS IT.

currently, this is not stopwatch since there’s FULL HOLDS all the time.[/QUOTE]

What doesn’t matter? Dynamic spawn times? Escort progress? etc?

For the escort progress I was simply trying to work with what we have currently how we can deal with it.

But I am all for making the levels easier so times can be set.

(DonkeyDong) #52

[QUOTE=Shinta;311798]Why is it automatically considered unskillful to use things like flash bangs and turrets? Isn’t the whole point of brink to work as a team and mix the abilities of all the classes to create some grand effect?

If you just homogenize everything brink just turns into every other shooter. Mine as well go back to counter strike at the rate the thread is going.[/QUOTE]

Oh… wait… common sense… maybe games tend to go towards shooting people is because once you learn how to shoot (a gun), being nailed by cheese is just plain ol’ cheesy.

(crow) #53

[QUOTE=DonkeyDong;312549]What doesn’t matter? Dynamic spawn times? Escort progress? etc?

For the escort progress I was simply trying to work with what we have currently how we can deal with it.

But I am all for making the levels easier so times can be set.[/QUOTE]

dynamic spawn times, what for?

you set the same spawn timers for both teams, why make it random?

(Decayed) #54

the whole idea is to set different timers for offense and defense.
making it dynamic would be cool because then depending on where the bot is, it could adjust on the fly.
for instance, as the bot gets closer to the goal, make it so the escorting team has longer spawn times, and the attacking team has a shorter spawn to make the final few yards a bit more difficult. for instance.

(Decayed) #55

[QUOTE=DonkeyDong;312547]Don’t see smart posts like this often. Saying ‘buff’s’ and command posts adds to an fps is like saying putting one hand behind your back and playing with the other is adding skill. The only skill you’re actually adding is conquring the silly arse constraint or ‘buff’ that you’re adding in. Take out the ‘puff’ and you then see what an First Person Shooter (FPS) stands for… not (FPB… First Person Buffer).

But on a side note, I actually think this stuff is neat. Maybe having ‘open league’ where everything with some silly stuff taken out and having a ‘closed league’ where you will find the better teams fyi; and in that league introducing the skill enhancing removal of items.[/QUOTE]

I agree with what you are saying, I think it is a fresh look at the typical FPS. In some ways it is more similar to MMO pvp, which is typically about teamwork than individual skill. In most FPS, the best player can probably defeat 5 average players solo. Brink tries to make it more team oriented where now, yes the best player may kill the first 4, but the 5th medic rez them all and then they will go in and take him out. This is just a different dynamic and it should be interesting to see the teamplay involved, rather than all out skill.
Skill will still play a major factor, but personally I feel like if too many buffs are removed, everything becomes too cookie cutter and you might as well have 4 medics and a soldier unless there is an objective or specific class limits.

(crow) #56

[QUOTE=Decayed;312731]the whole idea is to set different timers for offense and defense.
making it dynamic would be cool because then depending on where the bot is, it could adjust on the fly.
for instance, as the bot gets closer to the goal, make it so the escorting team has longer spawn times, and the attacking team has a shorter spawn to make the final few yards a bit more difficult. for instance.[/QUOTE]

this is retarded and it would further **** up the possible balance in this game.

not every team progresses through a map LINEARLY at the same pace the other team did. if you played ET or ETQW you would know that winning one objective very fast is possible, and then a full hold could occur.

making it randomized based on position would make the random pushing of the bot to impact the final time, making it UNFAIR if the team progressed faster or slower during the bot phase.

that’s just a retarded idea.

YOU NEED TO MAKE IT CONSTANT, SO YOU CAN MAKE IT FAIR.

ONE TEAM CAPS, THE OTHER TEAM TRIES TO CAP FASTER.

that’s the point of STOPWATCH, stop with the retarded ideas please.

(Decayed) #57

you clearly don’t understand the difference between dynamic and random

(RaKeD) #58

Interesting discussion so far.

I’ve posted this in the thread “Open discussion HEAVY class” in the general discussion forum already but figured it will fit here very good as there are many people who love the game and discuss about it s deeper gameplay core.I am also interested in playing Brink competitive .Here is the link to the thread and the whole discussion if you are interested:

http://www.splashdamage.com/forums/showthread.php?t=25752&page=3

Here are my thoughts on the heavy:

Special weapons aren’t compensating the slow movement speed a heavy has to deal with, this simply means special weapons for the heavy class aren’t good enough.

It is ok for me that the automatic nade launcher isn’t that effective to kill ppl but the machinge guns are the real problem in my opinion.I am going to explain why i made this statement.

All LMG’s and the gatling gun, start to get an artifical bullet spread(Not recoil !!) very early.This makes automatic fire impossible to control with skill, e.g. recoil that is strong but controlable.This would mean a player needs some skill to handle the recoil and compensate for it.Bullet spread on the other hand just happens and there isn’t much you can do.(Crosshair circle starts to expand and bullets are going all over the place in this circle)

The minigun isn’t instantly recovering completely from bullet spread when you stop shooting.In fact the gatling gun needs a lot of time to completely recover from the artifical bullet spread which starts as soon as you start shooting (Crosshair circle get s bigger instantly but isn’t recovering instantly when one stops shooting).

This makes even shooting burst not really effective as you have to wait too long till the artifical bullet spread is completely gone! The Chinzor MG is an exception but it has a pretty bad accuracy and bullet spread from the start, like the minigun.

The Maximus LMG on the other hand is more accurate but has a random and almost uncontrollable recoil, specially random x-axis recoil.

This means you can’t provide effective supressive fire either, especially at medium to long range.

All LMG’s and the minigun just aren’t effective at medium or long range, it is not possible to lay down effective supressive fire at a certain spot.

This renders all the “machine guns” uneffective at medium to long range,furthermore more and more heavy players report that they are getting heavily damaged or killed by the light class with smg’s in close quarter combat (especially Carb-9, imo).I mention this because it seems like the special weapons of the heavy seem to be meant to really shine in close quarter combat in the current build of the game but the thing is, they don’t shine there either, nor do they at medium to long range.

The heavy doesn’t have that much more health, in fact they can be mowed down pretty fast with headshots and headshots are easy to pull of on heavys as they walk so slow.In my opinion the health doesn’t have to get increased by much but the main reasion heavys aren’t effective are the weak special weapons.

Furthermore i am not a big fan of aritifical bullet spread no matter what weapon or class.In my opinion it reduces the skill factor in a game and benefits lucky headshots.Y-axis recoil is great as it can be compensated and needs skill, it s acutally in the “hands” of the player.X-axis recoil is also welcome as long as it moves only into one direction, e.g. you hold down the trigger and the weapons crosshair/ironsights moves up (Y-axis recoil) and to the right(X-axis recoil)

In my opinion there is no need to give SMG’s random bullet spread to make them not effective on distance as this can be achieved by reducing the damage it deals at long range.This would reduce this pray and spray mentalitly, bring more skill into the game and make aiming more important.

(Mattc0m) #59

I’m against banning / restricting abilities & buffs. I think there needs to be certain limits on imbalanced abilities (there’s been a suggestion to remove all Rank 5 abilities. I agree, and perhaps all Rank 4 + 5 abilities)… but I think removing large # of buffs, abilities, etc. is harmful to the game.

It changes the balance, it changes it too drastically from vanilla, and it creates a divide between “casual” and “competition.” When you have to explain to a new spectator or competitor a completely changed ruleset that shifts the very metagame out of wack, there’s a problem with it.

(Ragoo) #60

Disabling rank 4 and 5 abilities sounds like a very good idea for a start.

Note that that would mean keeping Combat Intuition, Adrenaline, Homing Beacon and Comms Hack which are imho questionable.
Also this would disable the splash+damage nade abilities for Soldier which could make Soldier role less defined (thoughts?) and EMP nade which imo doesn’t sound game breaking but makes the Operative less useless.

Other than that it’s pretty much the abilities I listed I guess…^^