Competitive Issues & Discussion

[dommafia]

[QUOTE=v1D;306793]Just played container city against a worthy opponent. It’s almost impossible to get that tank past the defense’s initial spawn as the offense once again spawns far as hell back when the defense still spawns directly on top of it.

Container City, unless it gets remade, is not suited for competition.[/QUOTE]

Even with a 30 second defense spawntime?
That would make it possible so after killing them it’s pretty easy to spawn camp them as they only have 1 corridor to exit to and you can have 2 guys on either side while one moves the bot.

[Apoc]

Been playing some gathers and some friendly clan matches and heres my view:

Majority of maps are completely unbalanced, much too defense favoured.

Most notably:

• Hack objective on shipyard is near impossible with the hack obj as it is, takes far too long, is reversable and right next to defensive spawn (played few unfinished matches on this so far…just both team cant do second…)

• Container city and security tower both have escort objectives that mean escorting/moving the bot through an enemy spawn…in both cases (much much much more on security tower) this makes for ridiculous scenarios where it takes 5 seconds for the defense to get to the obj, and 30 - 50 seconds for offense, this is made worse on security tower where the defense spawn next to a choke point, already on vantage points.

Will need to play the other maps in competitive setting more as im yet to play refuel more than twice and reactor also

[v1D]

[QUOTE=dommafia;307118]Even with a 30 second defense spawntime?
That would make it possible so after killing them it’s pretty easy to spawn camp them as they only have 1 corridor to exit to and you can have 2 guys on either side while one moves the bot.[/QUOTE]

For what I can remember, it was 15 sec spawn times or maybe 20 sec?

[jLn]

pls do anything you want, but don’t limit bodytypes

[dommafia]

For what I can remember, it was 15 sec spawn times or maybe 20 sec?

Yeah i know the default, I’m asking if having a 30 second spawn timer for the defense would make the map playable.

[Hundopercent]

Discussion Topics

1. Defensive Favored
There is the very true feeling that most of the maps are defensively favored. So far, the suggested solutions are:

Like you stated, spawn timers are a serious issue at the moment. By the time you clear the defense out they’re already running back in buffed and nades primed.

Gibbing should take 4 - 5 bullets tops. Currently, it takes anywhere from 15-30 bullets (far too many imo) to kill someone and another 10 to gib. You either die trying to gib or have to reload and by then they are being revived while you’re under fire.

The choke points are brutal, getting passed the bridge stage on Resort is almost impossible since it’s out in the open right outside where the defense spawns. Since snipers are almost useless, trying to pick them off on that ledge is quite a task.

2. Maplist
USEABLE MAPS

Aquarium

Terminal

Resort - Minus/modified stage 3 and a modified stage 2 like you stated (has potential to be the best map.)

QUESTIONABLE

Container City - Can not really comment since every time I play this map I’m either spawn camped or spawn camping. Can’t really recall completing this map.

Shipyard - Haven’t scrimmed on yet.

Reactor - As a bonus this map is also a bit kinder to FPS not sure why but I tend to get higher frames and I have the ATI issue.

UNUSABLE

Refuel - This map feels like a mess. Poor design imo and unplayable with or without the sound bug.

Security Tower - The final escort is brutal, it is also the harshest on FPS. Not sure if it is playable even with the final stage cut, as the starting objective puts the offense in the most moronic position I have ever seen since Beach in RtCW. At least with RtCW you could set AS and Snipe to bypass the defense.

3. Gun Balance

Not sure what top teams you’re watching, however, I play with a lot of the old school RtCW players that attended Qcon and played invite etc. We exclusively use CARB-9 and I use the Gerund from time to time depending on range. KOSS may be usable I plan on testing it a bit tonight.

The main problem at the moment isn’t necessarily SMGs but rather every map is 80-90% close corner combat with the most idiotic choke points. It’s like mp_sub on every map. I don’t mean to be disrespectful but how did these maps pass QA without a flag being raised?

So, a mixture of strong SMGs and 80-90% close corner combat makes SMGs shine. Sadly, as always, shotguns are poorly designed and worthless. It takes 3 blasts to kill someone unless stars and moons align and you 1 shot them. By the time your second shot is ready the CARB already killed you.

Head shots mean next to nothing which seems to be a problem as well. AR’s shine when you can 2 shot someone in the head. It takes 3-5 in Brink so again, by the time you land that 4/5th pulse shot the SMG killed you as well. This wouldn’t be as much of a problem if

1.) ARs are more stable/accurate (maybe 5 shot bursts instead of 1-3)
2.) Bonus head shot damage
3.) Maps with more space between players.

Rifles are hopeless, with lag and low FPS issues there is no telling (for me) how to place them. The models/hit boxes seem very difficult to guarantee head shots unless you have an aerial advantage. That mixed with high mobile players and small maps make them extremely inferior.

Pistols, aside from horrible kick back/recoil seem pretty awesome. The knife should be a 1 stab head/neck, 2 stab back, 3 stab front/side.

Machine guns seem to work as intended. Situational same as the venom. Heavy Medic with machine gun is scary.

Edit: On another note, the spread on all auto’s seem to be far to big. Honestly, when it comes to FPSs superior teamplay and skill/aim should win. Currently, it’s spray and pray at the chest and hope for headshots. If you try to burst headshots (since the modifier is so low) you will die first. Something to look into as well.

4. Abilities Restrictions
Right now, there is no way to specifically limit abilities. However, there can be a “Max Rank”. In the standard competition format, I believe Rank 5 abilities are disabled.

I’m sure some abilities will need to be banned. Adrenaline as you discuss in #5 can not be used in league play. It makes objective planting and offense in general simple on certain objectives. Stage 1 Resort.

Silent running - Using sound to your advantage makes it more fun.
Combat intuition (The one that lets you know you’re being targeted)
Flash bang - Needs to be tweaked or removed. This can hit from 30 yards away and blind you for what feels like 8 seconds. Way too powerful.
Speaking of abilities the speed boost should be moved to operative and be a permanent buff for them (self only.)

5. Adrenaline

See #4

6. Team Size

5v5 is fine, I had thought this could be done 4v4.

7. Hacktool vs Engineer

I agree here. I believe Operatives should be able to hack in 40-45 seconds and engineers should not be able to reverse the progress. If anything have Operatives be able to counter hack that way they are used more often (at 1/4th speed.) Right now Engineers are the king class - weapon buff, armor buff, and have an objective on almost every map if not every map.

8. Body Types

I agree I don’t see the need to restrict. In all of our scrims we all go light/medium anyway for superior map control/flanks. Heavy’s are just very vulnerable due to their lack of strafe speed.

Edit: A majority of this stuff could probably be fixed with a pro mod. More crosshairs, and having a crosshair while Iron Sighted would be nice. If you do ui_showgun 0 and iron sight you have nothing which is quite sad coming from SD.

[Hundopercent]

Bump for Matt.

[Boltthrower]

GREAT post strychzilla! been following the forums for a long time and this is one of the better ones. I agree on most counts. Would love to see a response from splash damage simply saying we are concerned about these topics too, so I would know if I am wasting my time playing this game or there is something to hope for in regards to changes.

[labrat777]

1. Defense Favored

The current 8v8 timers are terrible and need to be changed.
For 5v5 competition, imo tweaking is needed but not to the extent of 8v8. But I would wait and see mostly because it is so easy to get spawn camped by an organised team and be completely shut down.

With all this being said, defending is almost always easier than attacking. You can find examples of this in real life as well as many other competitive games. An attacking force should only be able to gain advantage strategically.

2. Maplist

I agree with everything Matt said, unfortunately including his statement about Reactor. Just haven’t played it enough.

I must say I am very excited to see the new maps in June. I’m very surprised at how bland the routes for the light are, I was expecting a much higher skill ceiling required to traverse the maps at maximum speed.

3. Gun Balance

The overall spread of the guns is fine, the problem is the randomness. Take any gun, fire at 3 shot bursts into a wall, and by the 3rd burst you’ll know exactly what I’m talking about. Also, singe shot tapping destroys your accuracy, this is opposite of what it should be doing. Precise trigger control should be rewarded, not discouraged.

EDIT
Forgot about headshot damage. Needs to be increased, at least an additional 10% damage.

4. Abilities Restrictions
Other than adrenaline, I think all skills should be available for competitive play. and I literally mean ALL. You should be able to swap classes at anytime and have full abilities in matches.

See EDIT 2

5. Adrenaline
I do NOT think you should remove this ability from competitive play. However, it should be restricted to one per team. A single medic from each team, stated by either captain in warmup, can use adrenaline.
A few uses of adrenaline per match will not break the game, its the ridiculous adrenaline trains that have everyone screaming (me included.)

6. Team Size
5v5 no question, that’s obviously how this game has been designed and balanced. Trying to mess around with other sizes to win over niche groups is, frankly, stupid. TWL (no affiliation) will probably host ladders for other sizes for those that want to play them.

7. Hacktool v Engineer
Operative vs. Operative. This seems reasonable to me. The operative needs just a little bit more utility, and this will give it to him.
As for hack vs. dehack speed, it seems like a spawn timer and spawn area issue to me. Almost all the hack objectives are terribly placed, basically impossible to complete only because of that. However, the one on security tower gets taken often, and is in basically the most middle part of the map.

I don’t expect to hear the final word on this issue any time soon. There isn’t enough variety in their placement to know exactly what the issue is. It will take more maps, not just more time to figure out how spawn timers and objective placement really impact this issue.

8. Body types
The body types need no restrictions. Doing so would only limit playstyles and strategy.

EDIT 2
9. Command Posts and The Class Wheel

Command posts should remain unchanged. CP buffs make the game much more interesting to play from a strategic point of view. Taking them out would cut the utility of the operative too much, and would also impact the utility of the engineer.

For being so heavily advertised, changing classes on the fly is the most useless thing you can do. Being able to actively change class, without losing combat effectiveness, could make for some very interesting strategies. Although I do suggest a limit of (2) Medics and (2) Engineers per team.
As funny as an entire team coming out of spawn fully buffed sounds, I doubt anyone would enjoy it.

[SenorDingDong]

It’s good to see the absence of /kill and spawn timers have earned a mention. For a spawn wave game it’s a fairly big deal. However, continuing on the theme of the spawn system, one thing I rarely see brought up is the seemingly flexible window in which you have to spawn after your spawn time. I think I’ve spawned a good 3 seconds after the spawn time on more than one occassion. I’m fairly certain this is a carry over from Quake Wars, though I’m unsure of the reasoning behind it.

Being down for a long spawn, be it the result of a missed tap out or a poorly timed death should be a big deal. I don’t feel hand holding measures put in to prevent situations like this from occurring should be present in the competitive side of the game.

[RaKeD]

Maybe a display that shows the meters a NPC or robot has made in escort missions would be helpful.

If both teams couldn’t complete the objective in time one can dicern which team did better in that part.

[chosen]

4. Abilities Restrictions
…
Silent running - Using sound to your advantage makes it more fun.
Combat intuition (The one that lets you know you’re being targeted)
Flash bang - Needs to be tweaked or removed. This can hit from 30 yards away and blind you for what feels like 8 seconds. Way too powerful.
Speaking of abilities the speed boost should be moved to operative and be a permanent buff for them (self only.)
…

I think every single ability you mentioned is pro-attack. And that’s why I think you should keep them for now. Also, any of these abilities can be used in defense as well. The game is 5 days old and I don’t doubt your sense of the game but I can definetely say that the NA restrictions on ET were horrible, and the things you mentioned are way ahead of the real decision making.

I agree some might seem overpowered now, but also are the only way to actually get through the defense at all - I guess defense play needs to adept to the varity of combos available, time will tell on that but fast deny aint gona solve.

[Hundopercent]

[QUOTE=chosen;309906]I think every single ability you mentioned is pro-attack. And that’s why I think you should keep them for now. Also, any of these abilities can be used in defense as well. The game is 5 days old and I don’t doubt your sense of the game but I can definetely say that the NA restrictions on ET were horrible, and the things you mentioned are way ahead of the real decision making.

I agree some might seem overpowered now, but also are the only way to actually get through the defense at all - I guess defense play needs to adept to the varity of combos available, time will tell on that but fast deny aint gona solve.[/QUOTE]

It’s too early to tell a lot of things, those are a few things that came to mind by just reading them. As someone mentioned earlier the 2 second leeway after killing an opponent isn’t helping the offense. Most teams coordinating an offense strike 2-3 seconds before they spawn in order to have a 10 second grace to plant and setup for the spawn.

I try not to be bias, however, I am a die hard RtCW fan and still feel that is the best team based game ever released. Adjusting to this new style of play is difficult because at times it’s almost skilless, brainless spam which is the the exact opposite of what I prefer. Some of the restrictions I suggest may be to reduce the amount of spam I am currently seeing.

Perhaps the best course of action is to just wait and see how teams evolve to counter defense but spawn timers, weapon balance, and gibbing still need tweaking imo.

[crow]

I feel that defensive respawn times need to be changed to 30 seconds, while offensive to 15.

And even then I think the maps will still be defensive biased. But after this change is done, we can tweak.

Additionally, the unhacking is ridiculously overpowered, i think it should take twice as longer than hacking if we even want dehacking as an option.

Those are the biggest problems at the moment.

[hobodefcon]

With all the defensive bias currently in the maps, I think adrenaline is the counter to that. Also, if your team was doing the objective, it forces the medic to make a choice between defense and offense, whether to adrenaline the objective class or whether to take cover and shoot.

If your team was going to chain adrenaline, that’s like 2-3 medics not really shooting. Also, all the medics would be in one position ready to adrenaline, which would be a good target for nades and molotovs.

You could also counter adrenaline with flashbangs, which i believe outlast it in terms of effect, if the adrenaline was used offensively.

[Mattc0m]

[QUOTE=hobodefcon;310922]With all the defensive bias currently in the maps, I think adrenaline is the counter to that. Also, if your team was doing the objective, it forces the medic to make a choice between defense and offense, whether to adrenaline the objective class or whether to take cover and shoot.

If your team was going to chain adrenaline, that’s like 2-3 medics not really shooting. Also, all the medics would be in one position ready to adrenaline, which would be a good target for nades and molotovs.

You could also counter adrenaline with flashbangs, which i believe outlast it in terms of effect, if the adrenaline was used offensively.[/QUOTE]

Completely disagree on all counts.

Adrenaline counters flashbangs? You don’t need to vision to plant the bomb or complete an objective.

Nades take time to prime / throw, and are often on cool down. Molotovs are usually limited to one class (normally don’t see more than one soldier per team).

And yes, those medics are “really shooting”. A buff takes about a half a second… not hard to throw down in the middle of a firefight (I often buff HP / receive HP buffs during even a brief lull lull in the firefight).

What adrenaline does it make the EASY objectives (carry and plant objectives) even easier. These are arguably the two easiest / fastest objectives to complete. Compared to escort / hack / construct objectives, they are much quicker and more fun.

Essentially, Adrenaline makes these “balanced” objectives (plant / carry) more offensively “imbalanced”. It does not address the real issues of escort-locks due to immense defense advantage or huge constructing / hacking times on objectives (plus defensive bias due to spawn times / distance).

[hobodefcon]

[QUOTE=Mattc0m;311396]Completely disagree on all counts.

Adrenaline counters flashbangs? You don’t need to vision to plant the bomb or complete an objective.

Nades take time to prime / throw, and are often on cool down. Molotovs are usually limited to one class (normally don’t see more than one soldier per team).

And yes, those medics are “really shooting”. A buff takes about a half a second… not hard to throw down in the middle of a firefight (I often buff HP / receive HP buffs during even a brief lull lull in the firefight).

What adrenaline does it make the EASY objectives (carry and plant objectives) even easier. These are arguably the two easiest / fastest objectives to complete. Compared to escort / hack / construct objectives, they are much quicker and more fun.

Essentially, Adrenaline makes these “balanced” objectives (plant / carry) more offensively “imbalanced”. It does not address the real issues of escort-locks due to immense defense advantage or huge constructing / hacking times on objectives (plus defensive bias due to spawn times / distance).[/QUOTE]

Flashbangs counter the use of adrenaline when it is used to enter a room that is currently held by the other team is what I meant.

Adrenaline also has a cool down. Everyone has nades, only medics have adrenaline.

It can be clutch for planting, but also works the same way with disarms. If you shoot the person carrying the objective who has the buff, they doing to go down when it wears off. Also for that objective, someone can easily pick it up and start carrying it, so i dont think adrenaline effects that objective that much overall other than entering the code part.

Even if those objectives get complete really easily, there’s still the very difficult objectives like escorting the bot/hostage, hacking and constructing. Arguably, adrenaline helps get the easy objectives out of the way so that the harder ones have more time and from my understanding, that’s the current issue with the maps, that some objectives are crazy difficult. I get that it’s not the best solution, but ultimately, people want to see teams set times, not double full holds right?

I havent tried being a medic doing a chain adrenaline, but I imagine standing out in the open by the objective, watching for your turn to adrenaline, shooting and dodge, would put you at a disadvantage compared to the other team who; know where you are, probably have cover, can knock you down with grenades.

Also, doesnt the person who gets adrenaline get knocked down from the damage taken during the buff, making chaining it really tough?

On the escort locks, those are due to the defensive team having better positioning/shooting. Adrenaline can be used to take over one of those positions, weaken the defense, then take over the positions. Easier said than done, of course.

[playa]

id like to comment that last stand is f**king gay and needs to be taken out. its bad enough you call of duty kids want this game 5v5 but no way last stand should be in effect

[Redshft]

Does anyone else think the buffs should be taken out in this game? Personally they seem to overshadow any player skill that might shine in this game. Losing a fight because you weren’t able to get a damage buff because your engineer was dead is pretty silly. It is pretty much bordering on being RPG like.

Scriming this game makes me feel like i’m played Quake Live CTF with runes where if I dont have a rune i’m at a huge disadvantage.

My thoughts:
Engineer Damage buff should be removed
Engineer Kevlar buff removed
Extra Pips given by medic removed
Soldier kevlar ability removed
Ability to add extra health pip removed

Some of this, like the medic health buff, can only be achieved with an SDK. We obviously can not keep players from healing teammates.

TLDR: Competitive play in this game is not attainable when you lose fights for not having buffs.

[Boltthrower]

I feel reducing spread and upping accuracy on some of the guns would help out that exact buff situation you are talking about cause I know what you mean if you are up against an engi and you are both just spraying each other they will prolly win. I would prefer no buffs at all like you, but its not a game breaker for me I would just like a better chance for skill to over come them.