Community Question: Spread vs Recoil

(tokamak) #101

I didn’t deny that. It’s just marginal. Safe for arcade shooters there isn’t a game with less spread than that.

(INF3RN0) #102

The first video shows how you would see most “good” people attacking a target in CS, and the second video clears up the confusion that players are actually moving while shooting- which they clearly are not. Sometimes I just assume everyone has some logic/experience behind what they are talking about, but maybe I should be spending more time on the SD forums where the below-average gamer knows best. Le sigh.

(tokamak) #103

Okay I admit that the spread reduction is more substantial than I first suspected. Still marginal, but that video did change the way I view CS. Still, the point remains that CS is the most tight shooter on offer. I guess the only true challenger is promod. If you know any games that have ‘pure aim’, as you call it, then let me know.

(INF3RN0) #104

Pure aim as I define it involves pointing a crosshair at a target and having your bullets follow a near direct path. The base rifle in ET games is a perfect example of this, and all other weapons function under the same general concept but with other factors for balance. You aim, you shoot, you hit or miss. In my book the most aim-skill measuring weapons are those that punish you for poor aim. There’s plenty of games that have weapons that function like this, but I find ET to be the most consistent in the overall weapon design. The fact that the base ET rifle has low spread and recoil allows it to be used in constant motion allowing for fast paced game play by default. Obviously you have played the games, so I won’t go into detail.

(Thundermuffin) #105

I only watched a little of the video tokamak posted (because it was laughable to me, he picked like the worst player ever); does the video ever say if he has dynamic crosshair turned off? It did look static, but I play with dynamic crosshair off and it looks a lot like that, but you can still see the bullets fly all over the place. Heck, you can see how bad spread can get in CS:GO if you just hold down m1, because of the tracers that everyone hates.

I just find it funny that he acts as if CS boils down to all aim & run and gun and not tactics, strategy, or planning; I remember watching that old TV show on G4TechTV called The Arena or something between teams like compLexity, Carolina Core, Venom, Optx (anyone remember any of them besides coL? Good times!) and the way they played completely contradicts the way he talks about CS. Heck, the way I play CS completely contradicts the way he talks about it and I’m no where near their level. Just because a YouTube video shows someone walking towards someone and getting kills doesn’t mean that’s how it’s played. I still find myself every now and then being stupid, walking towards someone with their back turned and just holding mouse1 and watching as my bullets fly around their little head.

You should download GO, I think it’s in open beta now (or it’s supposed to be soon, if I’m thinking right. I got a key for the closed beta so I never kept up with it) and actually play some and try running towards people holding mouse1 or AWPing and not standing still.

(Humate) #106

Out of interest, does anyone find the camera jerking from recoil uncomfortable? I remember avoiding the GPMG often because the combined camera jerk and ironsight jerk would give me a headache.

Didnt really have an issue with the view on the gpmg.

This is how SD did it if anyone else is interested:

Recoil and Kickback
Kickback is the amount your view moves in degrees per shot.

"recoilTime" "120"
"recoilAngles" "-0.5 0 0"
"kickback" "1"
"kickback_prone" "0.5"

recoilTime and Angles affects your view, kickback actually kicks your aim back. You got your view, which is usually at the centre of your view. Sometimes your aim is constrained, like when you’re driving a vehicle, so you can look around further than you can aim the weapon - your view extends beyond your aim. Anyhow, every time you fire, the game checks if your view is already “recoiled”. If it’s not already recoiled, it moves your view up by the recoilAngles amount, then waits the recoilTime, and then moves your view back to centre. The recoilAngles figures are a vector, but only the first value used, negative Up being Down. As Wils puts it “it’s not X, Y, Z, it’s more like Z, eh and eh?”

Also, we cheat. With very rapid firing weapons, we set the recoiltime slower so you still get a sense of recoil but your view isn’t actually jiggled by every single bullet fired. We jig it so that maybe every other or every third bullet fired doesn’t actually affect your aim at all, but it still feels like they all do.

Kickback is different again. Kickback happens every shot and doesn’t re-centre - it just knocks your aim (and thus view) up by the angle specified. Much less so if you’re prone, obviously. So in the case of a MP when you fire, your aim is knocked up a little by the kickback amount, then a bit more by the recoil amount, then back down by the recoil amount. You fire, it jerks up the view by 1 per bullet, recoils your view by -.25 vertically, and starts a 120 ms timer and at the end of the timer view it reverts, and then, assuming you’re still firing is kicked up again.

(deems) #107

both, but small enough spread that skill matters. But a bit of spread so that closing distance is a strategy. ETQW and BFBC2 did it well.

(shirosae) #108

This is a response to the post by Humate that used to be here on this page, but now isn’t?

I guess the question, since most people who posted seem to favour recoil, is to see how people want recoil to work. Is having the recoil/kickback work like ETQW did it a dealbreaker for you?

I’d much rather a system where each gun has a moment of inertia, and each shot imparts a pulsed torque upwards. That way the recoil doesn’t have that square wave jerking like ETQW did. It’s selfish, but the sudden jerks in ETQW burn my eyes.

(Humate) #109

Yes I accidentally deleted the post sorry mate.

I had to load up the game vs the comp and test it out against the wall, because its been a while since ive played the game. :slight_smile:
The way they camera shifts with the GPMG didnt really bother me to be honest. I would say the machine pistol was more annoying, but not enough to be pissed.

(shirosae) #110

Sorry, what I mean to ask is: Is it important for you that the recoil in this new game works the way it does in ETQW?

I’d be quite interested in theorycrafting some recoil mechanisms here, but I’m wondering if it’s a non-starter or not.

(Humate) #111

I would be pretty pleased if recoil worked precisely like etqw in SD’s new game.
Important to me? Not really.

(tokamak) #112

Same. But then again, I would be pretty pleased if pretty much anything works precisely like ETQW in SD’s new game.

(Rex) #113

Sign. Who doesn’t, who doesn’t :frowning:

(Humate) #114

majorly off-topic:

movement speed & strafe jumping
knife switch to gain speed
asymmetrically balanced teams
opened up areas b/w 1st and 2nd objective
class models
weapon tied to class
outdoor objectives like sewer - open
kill log with weapon names, instead of icons
fireteams with health/gib status of team-mates
damage model 3hs = kill
temp unlocks
first person spec when in spawn queue
FACTION specific FOOTSTEP SOUNDS
Walk mechanic :wink:

The stuff that might need a bit of work:
hit rego / netcode
less spam
radar : /

edit: some ideas for your new community threads badman

(Dthy) #115

[QUOTE=Humate;404581]majorly off-topic:

movement speed & strafe jumping
weapon switch to gain speed
asymmetrically balanced teams
opened up areas b/w 1st and 2nd objective
class models
weapon tied to class
outdoor objectives like sewer - open
kill log with weapon names, instead of icons
fireteams with health/gib status of team-mates
damage model 3hs = kill
temp unlocks
first person spec when in spawn queue
FACTION specific FOOTSTEP SOUNDS
Walk mechanic :wink:

The stuff that might need a bit of work:
hit rego / netcode
less spam
radar : /

edit: some ideas for your new community threads badman[/QUOTE]

I know you’re describing etqw, but I think you should re-work weapon switch to gain speed to switch to a lighter weapon to gain speed. Yours makes it sound like if you continuously switch weapon you will travel at warp speed. :smiley:

And, yeh I’d love it if it played like etqw, (except with better netcode which doesn’t make you invincible with 100+ ping)

(Humate) #116

Yep im talking about switching to knife… or spikes :slight_smile:
Thanks for correcting it though.

(tokamak) #117

I may of course be saying something really stupid right now but with that unreal engine I’m not worried about the netcode.

(Senethro) #118

Well. With network code you can go two ways. Either you try to give everyone a reasonably accurate approximation of what is actually happening, or you try to give a simulation of lagless play. In the past Unreal has leaned towards the former while Quake/Source have embraced the latter with lag compensation.

I prefer playing with lag compensation even though you have to put up with idiots crying about how they totally just got killed around a corner and that thats bull**** and then they start moaning about how high ping/poor connection is actually an advantage.

Don’t know what recent Unreal has done. Everything moves so slow these days though that combined with universal broadband connections, lag kind of isn’t a big deal anymore.

(INF3RN0) #119

One of the other things that needs to be kept in mind is fall-off distance on weapons. That was a great means of distinguishing between many of the weapons in ETQW. I’m not talking about bullet drop, but there is a fixed range for each weapon. ETQW promod was awesome, but one of the bigger faults was that the range of the default rifles was so good the scoped rifles had no real use. Adding in more guns should really follow the ETQW model though, as I felt it really did the best job at maintaining a solid balance between all of the weapon types (just no rockets or hypers ploz).

(Humate) #120

Scope assault and acc lac are pretty good in promod… best kill stealing weapons in the game cough