Community Question: Spread vs Recoil

(.Chris.) #41

But but, you need to think when you should stand still to aim accurately! You don’t need to think about anything when moving!

(Loffy) #42

I voted “Other” 'cos it’s about spread, recoil, and damage.

Please keep spread to a minimum.

(Humate) #43

I’d happily accept a very small amount of spread and/or variation in muzzle velocity to act as a random seed. The first shot should be 100% accurate, though.

And the spread reset time should be pretty quick. :wink:

(tokamak) #44

Brink had very fast spread increase and slow decay. Controlling your gun required too much effort and had insufficient pay-off. There wasn’t enough advantage to standing or scoping. This relatively high prevalence of spread levelled the skill difference between players, which was a bad thing.

Though I would enjoy even higher fidelity (very accurate scoped, very wide spread while moving and anything in between) like in Rainbow 6, I’m pretty happy with how ETQW’s guns feel. In ETQW putting some thought into it gives you an edge but it doesn’t require so much attention that it distracts from the action.

Fixed that for you.

(DarkangelUK) #45

Prepares for the hijack

Oh so apparently if you have equal accuracy, knowing when to stand and move doesn’t need to exist either.

(Cep) #46

What’s your preferred way of differentiating weapons of the same type in a shooter?

It depends on the game. However I prefer a game that adds pro’s and con’s to weapons as opposed to messing strictly with recoil/spread. Most of the times when its only recoil/spread that differentiates a set of guns, most people just use the one that gives the best balance and the rest are left behind (Brink anyone?). Space Marine for example has the best balancing of weapons I’ve seen in a game as no weapon is useless and that’s the underpinning reason, each weapon comes with pro’s and con’s.

For example a plasma cannon is insanely powerful heavy weapon which can kill an entire group in one charged shot. However its slow to fire, is inaccurate at range and in close combat is extremely dangerous to shoot with lest it kill the owner. On the flip side you have something like the Bolt pistol which is your most basic hand gun, yet even though it has a slow fire rate, medium damage and low mag size it is still a viable gun at long to close range because it is steady and a shot to the head kills.

Now leaving my Space Marine fan boyizm out of it for a second lets look at three weapons that we could be talking about in a new game by SD.

A pistol, an SMG and a Rifle. Both the pistol and the SMG do the same damage per shot, the Rifle does greater damage (perhaps twice as much).

The pro’s for the pistol - It is steady, it is accurate at all but extreme ranges, good for close combat.
The con’s for the pistol - It has a slow rate of fire, it has a small mag size.

The pro’s for the SMG - It has a fast rate of fire, it has a large mag size, good for close combat.
The con’s for the SMG - It is inaccurate at long to extreme ranges, it has a big kick to it causing spread on prolonged fire.

The pro’s for the Rifle - It is steady, it is accurate at all ranges.
The con’s for the Rifle - It has a very slow rate of fire, it has a small mag size, bad for close combat.

Each weapon above is as good as each other in that they just have different pro’s and con’s to allow players to determine how they want to play, rather than lets all go for SMG because no matter what it kills 99% of the time (herpa derpa, herpa derpa Brink) compared to other guns.

Another example if weapons of the same type:
9mm Pistol, Magnum 38, Desert Eagle.

The 9mm pro’s - Large ammo capacity, accurate, fast reload
The 9mm con’s - medium damage compared to other pistols

The 38 pro’s - accurate, nearly 1.5 x the damage of 9mm
The 38 con’s - small ammo capacity, slow reload, medium rate of fire

The DE pro’s - Twice the damage of 9mm, medium sized ammo capacity
The DE con’s - inaccurate when fired continuously, slow reload

To me there is more to it than just recoil and spread and to be perfectly honest I would like all the guns to shoot straight and none of this random bullet lottery nonsense we had in Brink.

(ailmanki) #47

different handling, how fast it can be used, melee combat, different ironsights maybe, cool down times, clip size, precision, maybe amror piercing bullets, … the hole range of options. But it should make sense somehow, I don’t like the situation where I can choose between tons of guns, without knowing what there difference is - so I would have to play with each gun…

(shirosae) #48

Yep, or even just be a static thing. I don’t think we should get into a situation where jumping over a box turns your AR into a shotgun.

I think even the heavy weapon movement impairment should be inertia rather than top speed. I have a freaky idea I’m not totally sure about that moves the head at the same speed for everyone instantaneously as they hit the movement keys, but which IK’s the centre of mass so it’s affected by inertia and moves slower for heavier weapons, so people will tend to score extra bodyshots against you over time, but it doesn’t make you useless.

(Rex) #49

Keep it as in ET or ETQW.

(Humate) #50

Yep, or even just be a static thing. I don’t think we should get into a situation where jumping over a box turns your AR into a shotgun.

What reset time is… its the speed in which recoil and spread returns to a minimum on the weapon, once you stop shooting.So when you tap fire, your bullets are going mostly straight with a quick reset time, as the game reads each bullet as the “first bullet”. Im sure you know that, just explaining the term :slight_smile:

so people will tend to score extra bodyshots against you over time, but it doesn’t make you useless.

As for movement speed on heavies, again ETQW did it perfectly for me.
I had a 7kpm with the hyper and 5.5 with gpmg so I never felt that heavies were useless at all.
Only in promod, was the hyper useless due to its spin up vs low spread of AR.

(Patriotqube) #51

Its almost perfect in W:ET and ET:QW just do the same with new game and people will <3 you all

(shirosae) #52

Ah, sorry. I mean that the spread cone just doesn’t enlarge, but instead stays as a small random seed and you use recoil as your movement sensitive aim impairment.

If there must be a dynamic cone of fire, make the reset time instantaneous. If I’m crouching in position I can’t think of a good reason for my aim to be punished because I jumped over a box three seconds ago.

[QUOTE=Humate;404483]As for movement speed on heavies, again ETQW did it perfectly for me.
I had a 7kpm with the hyper and 5.5 with gpmg so I never felt that heavies were useless at all.
Only in promod, was the hyper useless due to its spin up vs low spread of AR.[/QUOTE]

I could take either or. Inertia thing is an idea that’s been rolling around for a couple of years and thought I’d cough it up, because you can blend it with movement speed to give you a few options, ie it lets you further impair heavy weapons if needs be without making them so slow they’re useless. Subtleties!

Agreed with everything, though. I think my biggest beef with the GPMG was the jerky way the sights behaved under fire. I’d prefer recoil much more like Day of Defeat beta 0.31, where the recoil is a smooth continual motion. Just because it hurts my eyes less when I have a migraine.

(tokamak) #53

I suggest you’ll try it once. You’ll see.

(shirosae) #54

In real life it’s difficult to steady your aim after you jump over a box, so in a video game your gun should shoot bullets sideways for a set number of seconds after you do it because a video game should invent some other mechanism that isn’t really the same as trying to point a gun straight but instead ask you to roll a d20 or something because I said so.

Answer: Or, you could add some recoil to your gun on landing based on impact velocity so it’s not lol randomness but something you actually need to actively learn to compensate for.

Game, not simulation. Game, not simulation. Game, not simulation.

(Apples) #55

Even if its simulation, spread doesnt exist in real life right? I mean spread is adding a random layer of “where my bullets will land” while recoil is just “If I keep firing this AK in full auto I’ll soon shoot the moon down”, even when a weapon doesnt shot right where you aim at it, it shot ALLWAYS with the same bias, thats why, to me, spread should be non existant and you should add a bigger recoil (controlable one by firing in burst) for weapon with high rate of fire, less “handling” (I dont know the word but well, its easier to control a carabin than a uzi for exemple) and less weight --> Recoil should differentiate weapons

The only thing where I can see spread coming in is when you are moving, add a tad when you run, a little when you walk, and not at all when you are standing still -> Spread should differentiate situational awareness (and even for this point you can go no spread in every situation, but make the use of walk important with less loud steps, a non infinite stamina, etc… This way people wotn be running all the time, but I can even live with that!)

Crouching and proning should be used only to get in more covered position or the show less of your hitboxes, so no spread while standing still, crouching still or proning should be applyed IMO.

Spread is random, adding any random variable in an aiming process is dumbing down things for the sale of dumbing them down.

Peace

(tokamak) #56

[QUOTE=shirosae;404503]In real life it’s difficult to steady your aim after you jump over a box, so in a video game your gun should shoot bullets sideways for a set number of seconds after you do it because a video game should invent some other mechanism that isn’t really the same as trying to point a gun straight but instead ask you to roll a d20 or something because I said so.

Answer: Or, you could add some recoil to your gun on landing based on impact velocity so it’s not lol randomness but something you actually need to actively learn to compensate for.

Game, not simulation. Game, not simulation. Game, not simulation.[/QUOTE]

It’s not the recoil that is hard to control after a jump. It’s the time it takes to steady your aim. I don’t really get this sudden obsession with recoil in the first place. Recoil is- and should- only be marginally influenced by your stance. In this context, the whole focus on recoil just reeks of a red herring.

The point is, you got to jump over a box. That is you finding a more favourable position. That choice needs a trade off so that it doesn’t become a no-brainer. People need to be able to decide whether or not they prefer that favourable position over a steadier aim. If that trade-off doesn’t exist then getting to a favourable position is always the best choice as you get to keep all your shooting advantage.

Even if its simulation, spread doesnt exist in real life right?

From the nozzle onwards the spread is marginal, but when taken from the grip there’s definitely such a thing as spread (please don’t take this out of context). In real life you don’t have an optical mouse and a custom coloured dot showing exactly where the bullets will land with absolute certainty.

And it’s not complete randomness. It’s randomness that players can control. It’s randomness that increases over distance, it’s randomness that can be tempered by taking the right measurements and sacrificing other perks (like high mobility), it’s randomness that can penalise you for getting hit.

This is what makes a game tactical, provided players have a high level of control of this randomness. It rewards situational awareness, forward thinking and improvisation. Without this factored in it’s simply mouse dexterity that determines the brunt of the combat outcomes, that’s just boring.

In Brink however, it felt like players didn’t really get to control their spread. It was just went up at anything you did which means a high amount of average spread. That’s something I’m against. That’s the kind of randomness that turn shooters in a RISK mechanic where you stack probabilities against each other until an outcome is determined.

(BrightIs) #57

[QUOTE=Apples;404504]Even if its simulation, spread doesnt exist in real life right? I mean spread is adding a random layer of “where my bullets will land” while recoil is just “If I keep firing this AK in full auto I’ll soon shoot the moon down”, even when a weapon doesnt shot right where you aim at it, it shot ALLWAYS with the same bias, thats why, to me, spread should be non existant and you should add a bigger recoil (controlable one by firing in burst) for weapon with high rate of fire, less “handling” (I dont know the word but well, its easier to control a carabin than a uzi for exemple) and less weight --> Recoil should differentiate weapons

The only thing where I can see spread coming in is when you are moving, add a tad when you run, a little when you walk, and not at all when you are standing still -> Spread should differentiate situational awareness (and even for this point you can go no spread in every situation, but make the use of walk important with less loud steps, a non infinite stamina, etc… This way people wotn be running all the time, but I can even live with that!)

Crouching and proning should be used only to get in more covered position or the show less of your hitboxes, so no spread while standing still, crouching still or proning should be applyed IMO.

Spread is random, adding any random variable in an aiming process is dumbing down things for the sale of dumbing them down.

Peace[/QUOTE]

Agreed. any spread is down to the person holding a gun not the gun. Body movement should differentiate levels of spread.
Holding breath (cntrl b)>breathing normally>breathing heavily after running
Laying down(cntrl p)> crouching (cntrl c)> standing> walking(arrows) running (shift)

This would add new levels to skills in a fair way.

(DarkangelUK) #58

[QUOTE=tokamak;404506]
The point is, you got to jump over a box. That is you finding a more favourable position. That choice needs a trade off so that it doesn’t become a no-brainer. [/QUOTE]

There is, you’re having to concentrate on moving and looking where you’re going with no gun pointing at the enemy while he’s pummeling bullets into you… just in case that wasn’t obvious. If the player is moving and shooting at the same time and getting decent aim vaulting a box at the same time and gets the kill, well kudos to him, he’s a skilled player and deserves the kill. But you don’t like people having an earned advantage over someone else who cant be bothered to take the time to practice and hone their play style “it’s not fair!” lol.

So ok, you want everything to be Rainbox 6, apparenly accurate weapons take no skill, moving and shooting at the same time takes no skill, everyone forgets to know when to stop with accurate weapons, tactics don’t exist with accurate weapons, no one knows how to think with accurate weapons… we get it, we get it, we get it, we get it, we get it, we get it, we get it, we get it bump sorry, the record must be broken.

(tokamak) #59

This only demonstrates that you aren’t familiar with R6. That game has the most intense, visceral as well as tactical shoot outs, they can take nerve-wrecking minutes or be decided with in a fraction of a second. The weapons in Raven Shield are highly accurate if you know how to control your spread. Players often stick with one favourite gun for very long times just because they’re familiarised with it’s behaviour, it takes time getting to know each weapon so you end up building a rather intimate relationship with it.

you’re having to concentrate on moving and looking where you’re going with no gun pointing at the enemy while he’s pummeling bullets into you

Oh please…:rolleyes:

(DarkangelUK) #60

I did play Rainbox 6, it was who could make it to choke points fastest gets the standy bottleneck kills… it really wasn’t very difficult or tactically challenging at all. Oh please explain your oh please please, this demonstrates that you aren’t familiar with having to concentrate on several things at once. You want to stand still and shoot and punish those that don’t because you can’t do it yourself. I told you, we get it! You don’t like having to practice more than standy shooty, we know we know! So everyone is wrong because you don’t agree with their preferred play style, its pretty shallow really.