Class Functionality/Meta-Game

(INF3RN0) #1

Had some brief mention of some of these things in other threads, and really since the dawn of the genre of ET games. The question is how do we effectively facilitate an incentive for teamwork and establishing some sort of meta-game without upsetting the masses or losing flexibility in play style. Brink tried too hard to force teamwork and class variance by using buffs and I don’t believe a TF2 style system is wanted, but here is a completely new and unique idea I have for approaching the meta-game. These are just a list of ideas per class, so comment on them individually if possible.

Medic:

  1. Lowest main weapon ammo capacity (25)
  2. Lowest main weapon starting ammo (2 clips); max 3
  3. Gains 4 ammo per medpack used on friendly non-med
  4. Gains 4 ammo per revive
  5. Can gain up to +10 max HP (increases +2 per revive until maxed or death)
  6. Does not spawn with a grenade (max slot 1)
  7. Drops a medpack on death

FOPS:

  1. Medium main weapon ammo capacity (30)
  2. Highest main weapon starting ammo (4 clips); max 4
  3. Can give out a grenade and ammo pack to friendlies (max capacity of 2 nade packs on moderate c/d; each pack grants 1 grenade)
  4. Gains 5% recharge reduction on air-strikes/arty per ammo/nade pack used on friendly
  5. Gains bonus multiplier on headshots of 2.25x (versus normal 2x)
  6. Spawns with 1 grenade (max slot 2)
  7. Drops an ammo pack on death

Soldier:

  1. Highest main weapon ammo capacity (40)
  2. Low starting ammo (1 clip main/1 clip secondary); max 3
  3. 115 HP (15+more than normal classes)
  4. Spawns with 2 grenades (max slot 2)
  5. Grenades have a bonus splash radius
  6. Drops a grenade pack on death

Engineer:

  1. Medium main weapon ammo capacity (35)
  2. Medium starting ammo (3 clip main); max 4
  3. Can plant a separate C4 charge
  4. Spawns with 1 grenade (max slot 1)
  5. Drops an ammo pack on death

Covert:

  1. Special ammo clip size (5)
  2. Low starting ammo (2 clip); max 4
  3. Deals bonus damage with knife
  4. Spawns with 1 EMP grenade [temp disables turrets/EV] medium damage to players] (max slot 2)
  5. Drops a UVdrone pack on death (quick radar sweep in fixed radius)

If the weapon mechanics end up changing, then all of this would obviously alter. The organization and functionality however is the general idea that would apply to the system.

(acutepuppy) #2

I had an idea involving field ops. Replace the ammo crate with a supply station. It’d help create a front line anywhere on the map, something that DB is really lacking right now. I spent the day at work mulling over different ideas. I really believe this idea could help solve medic dependency, regen, and “front lines” issues. I think this idea modernizes elements that Dirty Bomb is struggling with (such as health regen, and more complex maps). I’ve tried to keep this design reasonable to match current and past gameplay elements, and not be ridiculous in the amount of coding.

The supply crate could be as simple as a placeable crate that functions much like ET:QW, but I think it could be expanded and really help balance class individualiuty, necessity, and novelty. All of which increase the meta game and team play. Right now field ops are weak in their function (area control) which really damages the soldier’s ability to attack the front lines, the covert’s area of recon necessity, and puts a huge reliance on medics.

There are a lot of conditions that could affect the balance of something that distributes supplies, first of all it’d be presumably easy to stack supply staitons as defense. This could be solved in a variety of ways, one easy solution would to have the crate air-drop. Then it’s just up to spawn points and map design.

The crates durability would be balanced with it’s usefulness. They could have health limits and supply limits, or could have to be “dismantled” by an enemy (perhaps hacked?), have a charge planted on them, etc…

The station could give out supplies continuously by proximity (I’d recommend almost touching), or have to be “use-keyed” for a couple seconds, and have a 30 second cool down before being utilized again,

What supplies would be given out? This is where it could either be a simple element, or something defining to the game. First of all the amount of supplies could be fixed, or relative to the number of players in the game, with a maximum.

-It could be simple, just health and ammo, either a constant stream (20hp / sec) or distributed by being “accessed”. In this case the crate could also supply a bonus (once per ~30 seconds) to you based on your class. Since the supply station would be used to create a “front line”, soldiers could be granted a grenade. Perhaps medics could be buffed with full health revives for a short time. Other classes could be given a boost on any active cooldowns?

-This idea could be pushed further, players that access the station will upgrade it depending on their class. When deployed, the station would only offer ammo, Fields ops could receive and restock the supply of ammo. Soldiers would get a grenade, and supply some to the station. Medics would receive 60 hp, and provide health for the station to distribute. Covert could provide it with heartbeat sensing for ~30 seconds (the access period cooldown). Engines… not sure. Perhaps it’d just be their job to repair the crate and get some decent XP for it.

Basically you’d have a mobile mini-base that can only be fully utilized by class balance. It’d do much of the things INF3RNO mentioned, but be a team play element, instead of pure numbers balancing (while great, does’t promote team cohesion)

I thought about this one all day, let me know what you think!

(Hundopercent) #3

Too complex and it feels like you’re forcing teamwork in order to get the maximum potential out of classes (Brink.) I don’t see why their is so much medic hate. It’s the most balanced class right now and all the top players play it, that’s why it appears OP when it isn’t.

Nerfing the primary of the medic isn’t going to resolve the issue, like the Warlocks and Necromancers of MMO’s (heal/support MOBA), any class that can self sustain will always be superior for duels.

(INF3RN0) #4

[QUOTE=strychzilla;425489]Too complex and it feels like you’re forcing teamwork in order to get the maximum potential out of classes (Brink.) I don’t see why their is so much medic hate. It’s the most balanced class right now and all the top players play it, that’s why it appears OP when it isn’t.

Nerfing the primary of the medic isn’t going to resolve the issue, like the Warlocks and Necromancers of MMO’s (heal/support MOBA), any class that can self sustain will always be superior for duels.[/QUOTE]

I don’t really see how it’s over complex or forceful, but instead just rewards players in a very direct way for working as a team. Brink was just about forcing class variation as a means of getting necessary buffs that gave mathematical advantage, where in this is entirely different. Reducing the ammo capacity of the medic and gaining ammo through heals/revives hardly nerfs them, but instead other classes meant to be the main means of aggressive killing become much more attractive to players who just want to frag. Medic shouldn’t be the most efficient aggressive killing class because it completely negates their advantage of self-heal. Other classes that have less self-sufficiency need to be stronger in comparison otherwise there would be no reason to play them. I think too many people are attached to the faultiness of past games where rambo medics reigned, but realistically that was a design flaw. I hardly see most of that list is forcing anything other than reducing the medics selfish rambo play and giving them more benefits when sticking with groups. If you want to mass frag you really shouldn’t be playing medic in the first place.

(Hundopercent) #5

The only reason rambo medics exist here is because ammo is so readily available. Rambo medics didn’t exist until Shrub Mod + WET. You start off with 1 clip and relied heavily on your LT to support you.

I agree with you but the solution isn’t to nerf medics into the ground. It’s to make the other classes more attractive and thus more effective at their role. Like I stated in the other post. I agree with Anti’s solution of making packs a heal over time with 1 pack being active at a time. That alone will drastically reduce their efficiency. I also suggested they start off with 1 less clip. It’s definitely worth testing.

Giving them low damage + 25 rounds is terrible. They wouldn’t be able to kill anyone or fend off a player so they can revive their team mate. This isn’t an RPG where the healer sits back and does nothing but heal/revive/buff. I would suggest switching genres if that’s how you want the medic class to be.

(INF3RN0) #6

25 bullets in a clip doesn’t prevent a medic from getting kills or weakens their weapon damage though? It just prevents them from leading the fights or running around alone 24/7. It only takes around 10 bullets to kill someone, so medics would still be able to do more than just support. I don’t want them to just be healer/supports either, but at the moment they are given more advantage than most other classes and don’t really need to work with the team, which shouldn’t be happening. Before the open alpha a lot of guns only had 25 bullets too, and what made less sense was those guns were on FOPS. I think your just a bit too attached to playing medic, and I know plenty of other people who play nothing but medic that have suggested making the medic a less efficient selfish solo-play killer as well. Medics really ought to be swooping in after other classes engage and cleaning up/reviving. By no means am I trying to make them worthless…

(INF3RN0) #7

@Puppy

I don’t really know what I think of supply stations atm. I feel like the maps wouldn’t meld as well in DB as they did in ETQW. In most cases players are usually in close enough proximity to each other in DB that simple pack tossing is good enough with players who want to help one another. Camden (not in public rotation yet) has ammo depots built into the map, which is a really nice feature though.

(Bloodbite) #8

I completely agree with the need for the meta-game. That’s what made W:ET and ETQW so replayable. Even after we all found every optimal tactic/exploit in the game’s maps (moreso with W:ET on that count), it was always satisfying to log back in after going total overkill on those games to see how fast you can level up your collection of class XP upgrades within the confines of a single or full campaign.

Being that DB resembles W:ET in size and style so much, that makes the above far more atainable than it was in the large sandboix’ee spaces of ETQW maps.

I don’t think it would hurt to C&P the uprades from W:ET and then tweak from there. Light Weapons XP would absolutely have to retain akimbo as the top tier level prize. But yeah… figure out the appropriate accumulations that work for this game first before really bouncing around what upgrade should appear at what level. We can debate WHO gets the flak jacket WHEN later.

I think that was one of the big reasons why Brink was so hard for so many new players to grasp. The game itself was infinitely simplified compared to ETQW, yet there was no incentive to learn the system… at least not on a subconscious “yay that made me feel good” addiction-enabling level the way the ET games were able to pull it off.

Take a que from all the MMORPG’s out there, and the biggest bestest of all messenger apps (World of Warcraft)… mask the complexity of stat/XP building with a leveling “BING” so that those with a simpler attention span will want to learn what that warm fuzzy feeling of “your special” meant, and how they can make it happen again… and again… and again

That’s how I see it… it’s a big replay factor for those of us that are veterans of ‘real’ games, and a big ,justifiable manipulation mechanic for the casual players.

In my head, everyone wins in this scenario (and it’s very rare that anyone but me wins in this realm :smiley: ).

(Kendle) #9

I can’t say I’m crazy about the idea of F/OPs gaining a damage bonus or the Medic / Soldier gaining an HP bonus.

Under this scheme the classes are either balanced when everyone initially spawns, or they’re balanced when everyone’s got their upgrades, either way at some point (in fact probably most of the time) they’re not balanced.

I do like the idea of the Medic dropping a med-pack on death however, that would be very interesting, it would make all the other classes more attractive at a stroke, as they’d also be more self-sustainable, which is the main reason people play Medic to begin with.

(INF3RN0) #10

I guess it would be more helpful to explain the thought process behind this thread. The reasons behind all the ideas I listed are based off the mission statement regarding the intended meta as quoted by Anti:

Soldier Class
Role: Primary role of the Soldier is to be at the very front of the team’s advance, initiating fire fights, breaking through bottlenecks and breaching the frontline. Good at clearing rooms, strong points etc

Combat: Very good at close ranged combat but reasonable at all distances. Can stay in a fire fight for much longer than other classes (large amounts of ammo, two primary weapons)

Key Skills: Aim, grenade use, movement, weapon use/switching

Medic Class
Role: The Medic’s goal is always to support other players by keeping them alive and augmenting them in combat. Fighting by themselves should be a lower priority and they should not be as effective as other classes in combat. They should receive benefits for putting others first.

Combat: Good at close range, capable at mid-range. The Medic should be able to defend himself and clear the odd enemy to be able to get to fallen teammates, but he should not be easily able to advance the team’s position or clear areas.

Key Skills: Timing, positioning, use of cover, energy management

Engineer Class
Role: Engineers try to take and hold areas of the map, either to defend objectives or hold ground near the frontline for attackers. Their abilities allow them to be good at defending locations but are not that effective at pushing forwards or when on the move.

They are adept at doing objectives and are required for some of them, but generally they should only advance once they’ve secured an area nearby first.

Combat: Very good at medium range and OK at close range. They can defend a nearby location well with their weapons but aren’t great at pushing.

Key Skills: Positioning, use of cover, energy management

Fire Support Class
Role: The primary role of the Fire Support class is to disrupt the enemy, slowing their progress and hindering their ability to attack or defend. They are also capable of supplying and supporting teammates, but not to the same extent as the Medic.

Combat: Very good at medium range and OK at long range. The Fire Support’s guns should be amongst the most lethal in the game, allowing him to cause lots of disruption to the enemy team in terms of the number of kills he makes.

Key Skills: Movement, aim, map awareness, timing

Recon Class
Role: The Recon class focuses on gathering and supplying information to their team, giving them an advantage in combat. They also make use of remote devices and Sniper Rifles to fight from the safety of cover, making them good at defending locations and holding ground.

Of all the classes the Recon is probably the one that needs to interact and partner with teammates the least.

Combat: Very good at long range and reasonable at mid-range

Key Skills: Positioning, map awareness, aim

(acutepuppy) #11

I honestly feel the mirco-balancing at this point is totally moot compared to new player accessibility and natural forming teamwork. This game MUST be successful to new players, and that comes from framework and feature, not DPS and hp count.

I am not anywhere near the skill level of most alpha players here on pin-point shooting, but anyone who has played Quake Wars with me knows I can fill any role down to the strangest niche. Frankly, I"m BORED with dirty bomb in comparison to Quake Wars, or RtCW already due to the lack of depth. It’s already more balanced than most shooters on the market (and has more potential) within the last 6-10 years, but there is nothing that makes me feel part of a cohesive unit outside of playing with players who know their stuff.

(Bloodbite) #12

What a horribly sad but true statement that is about most other games on the market.

The lack of depth your feeling is because it’s still alpha. We’re all feeling that sense of disconnect because the bells and whistles aren’t there. Right now it’s still core game mechanics that are being worked on rather than the stuff that adds to the feeling of immersion and attachment to your actual purpose at any given phase in any given battle.

(tokamak) #13

Excellent thread! This is what excites me the most here. We’re starting to exhaust the core mechanics of the game a bit so this is the kind of stuff we need to discuss much more. The classes aren’t distinctive enough. They’re all just a dude (or dudette) with a different weapon and a relatively unimportant extra skill. We need both active and passive perks to deepen their distinction. We also need to give players the means to control the depth of their specialisation. Some people want to be all-rounders and some want to be highly niche specialists.

I’ll add my stuff later, I need to go now.

(INF3RN0) #14

I think it would be nice if the ideal situation for people to want to play with would be something like 1soldier, 1fops, 2medics, and 1engineer; covert being used mostly by those who master the skill curve. It would always be possible to do different arrangements of classes, however some classes wouldn’t be nearly as effective without a counter-part. What I’d like to see in DB as well as what I believe the intentions are, and what I actually see happen are two very different things. A scenario along the lines of a soldier on the front backed by a fops and a medic, and then an engineer and a medic hanging slightly behind the group until the objective was fully secured would be an ideal success in class functionality from my perspective. I really disliked how in ETQW for example, medic was much too attractive in infantry team comps mostly because it did the job best. I won’t play a weak class in terms of what it brings to the table, which is exactly why I don’t want any class to feel like there’s always a much better alternative in the first place.

(Bloodbite) #15

you know, while we’re on the subject of perks, what’s going to happen with the campaign situation? Are we going to have map groupings like W:ET and ETQW or will each map live independently like Brink?

The Campaign structure is vital for progressive-then-reset’able XP leveling… which also draws people into investing into more than just playing one map then finding another server maybe and then just ditching their gaming session. Campaigns are like an investment, and always tended to make you want to stick around for the next full one when you join one mid way through… because you know that if you had the same amount of time with all these nubs on the same server you’d show them how superior your leveling skills are… naturally. :stuck_out_tongue:

(Bloodbite) #16

I think W:ET would be a better point of reference where people tended to mix it up in pubs based on an instinctual sense of necessity. Like when the bulk of the team was hammering from one direction a covie would grab a uniform in Fuel Dump or the beach one with the big artillery gun (getting old can’t remember)… letting an engie in the back. Or an engie and a medic or whatever pair seemed to work depending on the skill of the other team on Gold Rush trying to cause a flanking distraction by blowing the ‘later’ barricades for that temporary distraction giving the alies a chance to blow the first one and sort of rush the tank down to the next one.

Pro comps will have their restrictions on 1 of each class sort of thing, but in pubs, I think a variety of tactical choices is what will make it interesting and let strategies on each map evolve.

(INF3RN0) #17

[QUOTE=Bloodbite;425518]I think W:ET would be a better point of reference where people tended to mix it up in pubs based on an instinctual sense of necessity. Like when the bulk of the team was hammering from one direction a covie would grab a uniform in Fuel Dump or the beach one with the big artillery gun (getting old can’t remember)… letting an engie in the back. Or an engie and a medic or whatever pair seemed to work depending on the skill of the other team on Gold Rush trying to cause a flanking distraction by blowing the ‘later’ barricades for that temporary distraction giving the alies a chance to blow the first one and sort of rush the tank down to the next one.

Pro comps will have their restrictions on 1 of each class sort of thing, but in pubs, I think a variety of tactical choices is what will make it interesting and let strategies on each map evolve.[/QUOTE]

Well part of the goal is to not need restrictions in the first place. I personally think a system where certain classes become a necessity based on objectives or simply your teams class composition would work nicely. You don’t really want a team that is heavily saturated in one class to be the most effective because then it cuts down the content and feasible strategies. A lot of past restrictions were because there was that one class that became super strong in a comp scene due to the lower player count, but if all classes were fairly balanced at a base solo level and then became more effective in combination and well organized team play- then you don’t have that problem anymore.

(Anti) #18

I think Inferno and Acutepuppy have kind of captured what we’re aiming at with their comments. We definitely want to see a lot more teamwork than we see right now, we absolutely want classes to fill their own distinct role and for those classes/characters to be unique.

We’ll also want to get much more depth in terms of weapons and abilities into the game, to the point that when clans do play 5v5 matches class composition is a really big tactical element and part of the meta game. Games like WoW Arena and MMOs make a huge deal out of team composition in their matches and I see no reason that shouldn’t be the case with a class based shooter.

(xarQi) #19

but isnt it normal that on public you cannot really see that kind off teambased gameplay?
I mean on every game i played so far on pubs you dont see them working toghether etc…
so actually I think u better watch a 5vs5 scrim competition mode would be better to verify these stats?

(nailzor) #20

(Take my post with a grain of salt, I just recently started playing)

I can not say that I agree with the opening post at all - some of the changes mentioned are pretty out there. A Medic receives ammo for dropping a medpack on a friendly target? No grenade on spawn? Engineer only 1 nade? Some of these things make very little sense to me so I must say loudly: Not so much! Is a Medic a Medic with hybrid Health/Ammo packs! NO! :slight_smile:

What I can constructively say is that there seems to be missing a “need” to play support classes. Some of this is dependent on map design and objectives (ie: engineer for plants + repairs) and some is dependent on game play design. If I can kill any player and receive ammo, why do we need a Field Ops?? - surely not for airstrikes as they are ‘meh’ atm.

The fact that a medic can heal efficiently and receive “generic ammo” from any player killed seems to make players lean towards pressing F2 and never changing until an engineer is needed or if they want to snipe long range.

In my opinion if a change was made to the ammo drop, perhaps so that the class of player ‘gibbed’ drops class-specific ammo, this would counteract the problem that I am speaking of. IE: Field ops drops their class specific weapon, Medic drops theirs (which could be picked up by another Medics?). The problem I am seeing with my limited play is that Medics can survive solely on their own, no help needed by any supporting class whatsoever. Why would I need someone that drops ammo, I can get my own by killing 1-2 people and I am good to go!

This ties into the “need” for field ops and other supporting classes - which I think all of the classes are brilliant but would like to see some sort of rocket launcher that does extra damage to escort vehicles :wink: