Class Counter Play (abilities)

(INF3RN0) #1

Since DB is going for a unique feel to how classes/characters are played I’d like to bring up a topic of discussion that could really extend that goal. The idea here is class counter play in terms of abilities. This does not mean Class A beats Class B (TF2 Style) by default or via stronger weaponry, but rather it means that Class A has the ability to interfere/interact with the ability of Class B. This would not interfere with the base gun game, but rather offer the opportunity for more creative and dynamic class play.

In ETQW as one off-hand example the Covert OP’s EMP could disable turrets, vehicles, etc as well as just being a weaker grenade, and it made the class feel much more unique. Extending this concept in DB across all like-classes would really do a lot for the game play I feel. It would define the non-combat roles of the classes in a much more interesting manner if such opportunities were given to the correct classes.

Some examples of how this could work;

Class A can hack/capture enemy turrets/mines/etc. Class B can temporarily stunt healing rates. Class C can temporarily disable the use of special abilities. Class D is either self-resistant to artillery/fire or can provide a small aoe resistance. Etc, etc, etc.

You get the idea. As long as the counter play towards other class abilities wasn’t overdone and didn’t overly interfere with the usefulness of a class it could really make for more exciting game play. These could come in the form of a tool that already exists by giving it multi-purposed use or possibly a passive/activated effect. It’s just an idea, so I’d like to hear what people think.

(Samurai.) #2

I’d be all in favour of abilities countering each other between different classes/roles etc, but the main issue here is that the abilities currently in game aren’t dominant or effective enough on gameplay to need a specific counter like you suggest. For example, Turrets and mines can just be shot with bullets, no EMP nade is needed and the game lets this be fine. The abilities really need to be enhanced for each class/character which really makes you recognise who that character is and how you should play with them to have the maximum impact on gameplay. Once that has been established you can introduce the layer of counter abilities like you suggested to give another layer of complexity.

(Dormamu) #3

Hide the mines, cloak the turrets / Vassili can detect them thru scope or binoculars “B” :D, after they are detected, you can see them only if they are in your Fov, not thru walls. Only the CvOps can see them thru walls and only when scooped.
Skyhammer - 2~3 passes of the airstrike / Arty, can spot (thru binoculars) the area who will be hit by the airstrike.
BBQ, slightly increase the AOE and time of the molotov / Slugger can extinguish the fire by using a fire extinguisher :smiley: or a grenade fire extinguisher, can also be used as smoke screen (white mist).
Nader, can prime the gl magazine and plant it as a time bomb, 15 sec fuse / Proxy can disarm it / Hardy ca use the Heal station also as a small area radar ( show Nader bomb timer, mines on the map, enemies etc.) Heal station/ammo station can be destroyed only by a engineer/ temporary disabled by emp
T-Rat, can deploy a UGV Droideka rapid movement average metal ball who unfolds in to a turret, can be destroyed only when unfolded, can be disabled temporary by Conker emp grenade who can also disable on screen display, Hardy radar, etc.
Proxy can use her welding torch as a small personal flamethrower :smiley: / The Eye can shoot the oxygen/butane canisters on the Proxy back/front… The Eye can use her higher senses to detect cloaked mines, ghost turrets or Ghostly only by her presence :smiley: if they are near.
Footlose, can dash forward 2x speed for 1.5sec, 45 sec recharge / disabled by emp grenade/molotov grenade/smoke mist, Hardy radar, a dash interrupted will make Footlose dizzy for 2 sec.
Ghostly can use a Batman harpoon to hook himself to a higher wall, using the higher ground to spot/shoot/camp :D, can be detected and highlighted by Hardy Radar, Vasili scope, or by binoculars :smiley:
Dazzler can use the Veil (buhaha! :D) and triple his number of grenades, or just give him 20 :smiley: and let him spam the battlefield / Hardy radar radius can slow time and increase the time to blow by 2 sec if a Dazzler grenade enter it, 2 sec increase if the grenades lands/enter in a Heart Bet sensor radius.

(INF3RN0) #4

This is true and I would be all for it as long as the counter play existed.

(Mustang) #5

Diffuse enemy mines.

(Stumperd) #6

You just described the marriage between FPS and MOBA, and I think DB is indeed going towards this path.

(attack) #7

last night i was thinking about smth like this.

one of the big points is that any class should have her own mainability/passive

following ideas i had:

the engi should have an ability to spot any turrets/mines etc.in a area ,this includes behind wall
as example with a detektor , which send an impulse or smth like this. it would give the engi more use on attack and would give teammates a reason to stick with him.(an other effect would be that turrets dont shoot always shoot you in the back)

the soldier should have forceshield like in rainbow six ,would let him be a great cover in close areas . when using his forceshield he should maybe be able to shoot with a pistol .maybe he should be able to plant(slower) with it or stand it in front of him maybe it should cover his back automaticly if on the back
we ever go back to soldier plant

this are all abilities which tevery custom loadout should have

kind of the same idea are already upper page in other post sry for that :smiley:
.

(1-800-NOTHING) #8

can’t even begin to put into plain english just how much i absolutely and categorically loathe the idea of a forcefield on the soldier.

(tokamak) #9

The problem I have with this line of thinking is that it once again implies that all classes need to be equally matched combat wise.

That’s not how classes need to be framed. What needs to happen (and what currently definitely isn’t happening) is that we need to map out the main roles a player can have in a match. NOT in combat alone, but the match in it’s entirety. Currently the classes are already vaguely oriented that way because I really can’t think of an extra role that isn’t already covered by the classes right now. I can’t for the life of mine think of a sixth class without splitting up an existing one.

That means that unless this genre takes a new leap, we’re stuck with the five classes we have now. And that’s great.

What needs to happen right now is to have each class become more extreme in the way it fulfils it role rather than the role being tacked on top of it’s main combat occupation.

Characters can easily afford to be weaker in combat if they suddenly become a star in logistics, objective, support, sabotage, recon or any indirect way of shaping the outcome of a fight or the match in general.

THAT is what needs to happen. Currently SD is taking a step in the opposite direction with experimenting with shared objectives. I don’t mind the experimentation and I feel bad for not being able to adequately taking part in this but it already flies in the face of my principles and intuition. This is moving the classes further towards the centre rather than distancing them from it.

Yes, moving classes towards the centre and making their roles converge and overlap is one way of balancing it. It’s also the easiest way of balancing them as there’s less variables you need to control. In turn this will also lead to less character diversity, less pronounced roles and in turn more sameish matches where most of the outcomes will be decided by tapdance duels.

Moving them away from the centre makes balancing more difficult but with every step further from the centre you also create more tactical content. The deeper the roles of each class, the more space you have to go really nuts with character abilities. And in the end, THAT is what makes for great mind-games as well as for more appealing content you’re trying to sell.

(1-800-NOTHING) #10

no, classes can’t afford to be weaker in combat because they’ll die before they even can exit their spawn, tokamak.
but if you think playing a gimp class is fun, then go ahead: choose your own handicap and knock your socks off.

(INF3RN0) #11

Many classes tend to be valued for their abilities when it comes to the bigger picture, though it can also mean 1v1- but I’d like to focus on the overall role provided here. 1v1 combat is probably best treated separately for the most part, which is why I think you could bring an interesting dynamic by having classes be able to counter another’s ability role in some manner. It makes them more unique, it adds another element of strategy, and it would just make them more interesting to play.

(attack) #12

but i dont want a that drastic like in TF2.

Brink had a buffsystem,well the main idea wasnt that bad but the system was crap

the classes have to benefit more from each other to give more reasons for teamplay

(INF3RN0) #13

[QUOTE=attack;464954]but i dont want a that drastic like in TF2.

Brink had a buffsystem,well the main idea wasnt that bad but the system was crap

the classes have to benefit more from each other to give more reasons for teamplay[/QUOTE]

You’re responding to Tokamak? I agree with you that the buff system was crap because it was a completely automated means of forcing all classes to be played. It didn’t make it more interesting at all.

(tokamak) #14

I think you’re thinking in the wrong scale then.

Characters should be able to have soft to hard counters for other characters. But to put it on the scale of an entire class makes everything crude and unwieldy.

This means that it’s entirely possible for a recon character to have a counter to a particular assault character but there can also be an assault character that has a counter to a recon character. As long as it is in line with their overall role then sure, eat your heart out.

(DB Genome editor) #15

Would you see these counter abilities as something to be added to all mercs (including existing ones) as a secondary ability or as main abilities for future mercs? In the first case, they could probably be fairly specific (e.g. hack turrets or scramble heart beat sensors), it’s a side ability and it’s not a huge impact on your game contribution if you don’t get to use it. Put if these were to be a merc’s primary ability, then they would have to be much more general to make sure they are likely to be useful regardless of the mercs lineup on the other team. So for instance instead of being able to just hack turrets, I think you would need something with a wider impact like the ability to “convert” any deployable (turrets, mines, health and ammo stations, etc…).

(INF3RN0) #16

Bumping for Devs. Any plans to have some interesting class ability counter play? Would be a big plus one to game play imo, and it doesn’t interfere at all with the gun play.

(attack) #17

every class hsould have in a firefight the chance to kill the other.

(Hundopercent) #18

I think classes should be removed entirely and more of a role system be implemented.

Ex:

Tank - Highest HP/Durability - Think Soldier w/riot shield etc.
Brawler - Slow movement, powerful weapons (perhaps situational, like panzer venom etc), slightly higher HP, minimal to no utility. Think Nader/Grenade Launcher
Blaster - Highest DPS, faster movement, lower HP, - Sniper, Melee based merc
Support - Support team with heals, ammo, etc. - Medic, Lt. Lowest proficiency speed
Utility - Fastest proficiency, no longer tied specifically to engineer, though current engineers fit the bill

What I’m aiming at here, is that mercs can be so much more now, a utility class can be a class focused strongly on mobility, lets say rocket blades or whatever, you can double jump + wall kick with this merc. He doesn’t need to have a turret/mine/gimmick lame ability to be a engineer/utility/max proficiency merc nor do they need a stupid shotgun either.

Hopefully this all makes sense, but I think this approach will bring far more creativity with mercs, strategy, and team decisions when it comes to a match.

(INF3RN0) #19

[QUOTE=strychzilla;468274]I think classes should be removed entirely and more of a role system be implemented.
[/QUOTE]

Sure, but what about the topic here? Basically having multi-purpose roles for “characters” or their tools/weapons/passives whatever that bring some ability counter play. I’m all about balanced situational weaponry across the board and having abilities/roles be the more defining attribute. Do you think it would be more interesting if say the covert ops could passively detect turrets/mines or if a grenade did damage, but also stunted healing rates for a short time, etc. There are some simple examples in the opening post (not necessarily good examples) of how different things like this could work, but it would make for a more interesting dynamic between character abilities and creative game play.

(Hundopercent) #20

Sorry, I did go off on a tangent. Though my post sort of indirectly goes that direction. Having a vast range of mercs will help open the doors to hard counters etc. For instance, this is just an example so don’t hang me out to dry here. A merc could have an ability that prevents a player from being healed for x seconds. This would be a counter to medic heavy teams.

I’m not 100% agreeing or disagreeing. I do believe their needs to be some level of strategy when you pick your merc or else what’s the point? At the same time I am completely against Rock Paper Scissors as that nullifies any skill level when R meets P.