Character-oriented grenades

(shaftz0r) #41

your name is brinkman. brink is one of the worst games to come out in in a while. you’re the minority here

(Glottis-3D) #42

I love everything about etqw, even the lags :smiley:

(Rex) #43

Hehe. :wink:

(INF3RN0) #44

QFT (period). I consider most “spam tools” to take half the effort to use well and still output a huge impact. The reward is enjoyable when your the one receiving it, but I find it highly out of place in a game with a foundation on high level of aim tracking skill. Either you allow them to remain consistently easy to use (as they are now) and make them more of a catalyst type that requires a player to follow up on the conditions (slow, blinds, debuffs, etc)- or you make them more difficult to control/master (but control has to exist otherwise it’s random chance) and up the antee. Making something seem difficult by making it random does not solve the problem (see original xT artillery), but instantaneous automated large radius damage doesn’t take any effort. It’s obviously easier to make them more debuff oriented as creating a learning curve for spam devices is a tough task to begin with.

Frag grenades in ETQW for example were some of the lowest skill grenades in any game I’ve ever played. The fact that you could cook them completely lowered the skill cap in comparison to games where you have to predict player positions and when the grenade will blow up simultaneously. On top of that when you have large AOE damage, it just contradicts the intensive head aim requirements of the gun play. The same goes for things like mines and turrets, which are favored by players who need to compensate for their lack of damage output. In the end it will just define certain mercs as being nothing more than a newbies choice for more instantaneous gratification. I prefer getting a lot of kills when it involved me having to really work for it, and not just the luck of the draw.

Adding to the idea of unique debuff oriented grenades, I’d like to see things like artillery, mines, turrets, etc be less geared towards flat damage and more towards unique debuffs. Perhaps artillery that outputs moderate damage, but skews player spread within the aoe. Mines producing a conc nade effect. Basically effects oriented towards increasing the potential effectiveness of the merc using them. The thought being that something such as a close combat oriented merc like the shotgun engy will have a better chance at taking out a group/player if their mine is concussing them, rather than just giving them an automatic kill every few minutes and balancing their weapon in accordance to that. At the point that abilities are considered more situational opportunities for advantage, rather than compensating for damage- you don’t need to intentionally weaken weaponry. To me a game where the weapons have a fairly equal chance at countering the other in most situations, where the determining variable is distinct learning curves for each weapon, and the abilities simply open up opportunities for the team/player to make plays (with their guns ofc) is the most appealing.

(Ashog) #45

LOL

Cooking nades has been in most fps games since quake1, i.e. since 1997.
Maybe you should play more classical fps games instead of the modern noob ****.

(Nail) #46

lol, he would hate W:ET engi, 17 nades and 10 mines

(INF3RN0) #47

It’s to be expected from people who call themselves “skilled grenade throwers” or “skilled rocket launchers” or “skilled mine placers”, but when it comes to actually landing those long range clutch nades or rockets or killing a guy with your normal gun… well nothing happens. One time I threw a nade randomly and got 6 kills, but I didn’t spam chat with OH LOOK AT ME SKILL! The only times I’ve felt any ounce of satisfaction is when I’d land one perfectly from a weird long ranged angle, but even then it was probably luck.

(shaftz0r) #48

there was an element of nade spam in ET, but at high levels of comp, you had to know when/where to use them. they were mainly used for gibs in the middle of firefights, and less as traditional spam

(INF3RN0) #49

That has to do with the reduced player count I’m sure. In a pub of more than 5v5 things escalate.

(fubar) #50

eh, not entirely true. Admittedly the spam is a lot more controlled, but the spam was still there, the timing is just a lot more precise and a lot of people don’t like “wasting” their nade for a person that’ll respawn in a few seconds anyway, thus rather safe it for a potential spawnkill or to get someone full, either way… there’s always your 1-2 guys per team that’ll have some odd 30-40 nades thrown per round where as the medics are more in the 10-15 area… But, you know, there’s some people that do nothing but spam and vice versa there are others that’ll focus primarily on gunplay. For example Clown/Toxic/Night/Twidi/Sheep and the likes spam… a lot, almost the entirety of their game is about well timed spam.

I’m sorry, what? ET’s played 6vs6.

(shaftz0r) #51

6v6 ended a long time before the game itself died. it was 5v5 for a few years, and tbh, i enjoyed it better

(fubar) #52

It’s been 6on6 again for a long time, 5on5 only lasted for a short while and was utterly disliked by the majority of people… people that were good at the game anyway. 5on5 is heavily aim reliant and, quite frankly, ruined a lot of the spam ET was all about, some like it other dislike it, but for the majority it kind of screwed the game over, completely. A ton of people quit over the change because they hated the 5on5 format, and I don’t blame them, 5on5 killed all aspect of spams, turned the fop useless, made the game more aim dependent and diminished multiclassing, things I think add a lot more to the game than simply being able to aim well.

(shaftz0r) #53

you’re obviously spamming low+ because nobody plays 6’s and hasnt in years. if they made a 6s league, it’s extremely recent. no top teams have played 6v6 in an extremely long time, and that includes dreamhack

(fubar) #54

Are you retarded? the last EuroCups and NationCups all have been 6on6, I’ve… participated in those as well as in the 5on5 ones and the 6on6s prior to that. In fact there currently IS an ongoing EC, in the 6on6 format. I’m not sure what you jaymodders in the states are used to, but we’ve… long, long, long gone away from the 5on5 format.

Last EC, 6on6: http://clanbase.ggl.com/news_league.php?lid=13122
EC XXV, 6on6: http://clanbase.ggl.com/news_league.php?lid=12641
EC XXIV, 6on6: http://clanbase.ggl.com/news_league.php?lid=12283

Etc…

I genuinely don’t get what you’re on about, sorry to burst your bubble, but… what the **** does “high level competitive play” actually qualify for you over there, in the states? Because last I checked I don’t think you guys produced anything near to a decent level in… more than 10 years, and even then, the quakecon teams were nothing but mediocre - at most.

(Rex) #55

Guys you are all going super off-topic now, but yes ET was always played 6on6 (no matter of the skill level). :wink:

(shaftz0r) #56

again, these are new. within a year or two. i havent bothered playing that dead game since they allowed the biggest cheat coder in et to make an anti-cheat

(INF3RN0) #57

[QUOTE=fubar;481097]
I’m sorry, what? ET’s played 6vs6.[/QUOTE]

Aside from the correction, are you saying that grenades are considered a comparable skilled item to gun play or just that people just deal with it? I use nades if they are there of course, but I consider most implementations of grenades to be skillfully lackluster and would rather they served a different function than pure flat damage as long as they involve such effortless use. I don’t get mad at smart plays like “baiting” or “cover humping” or “jumping/crouching” or whatever people complain about these days, but that by itself won’t earn a kill or output damage. In the end the shooting ought to be the primary means to kill, and the rest are just catalysts to the process. There’s a reason why in most games every newbie resorts to the grenade or whatever spam weapon type is available as their “primary weapon” because it actually increases their success rate- that shouldn’t be the case imo.

(fubar) #58

I actually believe, grenades and other types of spam (artillery, airstrikes, rifle) are of greater skill than gun play. I get where you’re coming from, I really do, being killed by a grenade can be annoying - even more so if it happens several times. But, and here’s the thing, to me, personally, it shows of greater skill if a person is capable of predicting said nade and evading it, also does it take a certain amount of skill to properly time a nade… not every nade you die to or get a kill with is random, in fact… quite the opposite, if I die to a grenade in ET or RtCW or… hell, even CS, I blame myself for not having expected one at that point and time. At the same time, successfully priming a grenade in anticipation for a person to go from X to Y and getting him on a fullspawn or an otherwise directly objective benefiting situation is not only great for the team, can be a game maker or breaker, but it’s also a very rewarding feeling. Hell, in ET I wouldn’t even stand a chance, ever, people - among all skills, can aim SO well, the only thing I have an advantage over them with is the fact that I don’t rely on my shooting only. Take Clown for example, or Night… both very very highly regarded players, Night having been crowned ET legend several several times, yet… when you look at his aim? Meh, 30% at most, some preshooting here, mostly backraping there… he’s got decent aim, surely enough… for a med skiller, but anything above? Please. If you took away his ability to spam he wouldn’t be half the player he’s now.

With all that being said, yes. If you die to the very generic grenades, grenades you should be fully aware of, that’s not the grenade’s fault for being “random”, or “lucky” or merely just “op”, that is entirely your fault and most likely you being of lesser skill or having underestimated your opponent in said situation. Grenades or technically any spam, if properly timed and used, have such a BIG impact on the game.
For instances, take your generic Supply Depot defense in ET, fop up (axis, first stage). Now, you’re the fop, you know your opponent has literally just spawned 3 or 4 seconds ago, your spawntime’s coming up in roughly 7 or 8 and you’ve got charge for an arti (being aware of the fact that your first hit does not trigger up until 8 seconds after having put it down), throwing that close to your main entrance some 5 or 6 odd seconds before you spawn will entirely and completely shut off the allies attack and the only threat at this point are nades from the cave (if at all, medic or you yourself will most likely have rushed it and killed out prior to respawning) and a medic rush coming from the upper route (possibly 2-3 primed nades to get you on full). Would you consider it luck to get any if at all kills with the artillery or grenades from said medics, at this point?
My point is, if I even have any, those medics rushing up the sole reason they’re sticking around for, are those spawnkills, they knew the arty was coming, they knew they wouldn’t get the flag on this spawn, but… if they manage to get 1 or 2 people out with their nades, perfectly timed for the axis spawn, they’ve just opened up a window for their next attack (at this point they’ll already be respawning in 2-3 seconds and can freely kill out) and most likely get the flag if they don’t rush in there like a bunch of braindead hamsters… These are the type of situations that literally happen every single game on a Supply map, spammy? sure, boring? perhaps, very generic? afraid so, but without those nades… you would never, in a million years, be able to get the flag against a team of even or greater skill. Does it make it bad? Hell no, it’s a game changer, be smart, don’t die to nades, use them to your advantage… win games. Competitive gaming, on a higher level than your casual mix or scrim is… so much more in-depth, you really can not underestimate the amount of lengths people go to, to find the tiniest of niches to gain an advantage in, if it mean’s memorizing how long it takes a person to get from their spawn to point X, even having accounted for said person having slowed down a certain stage to dodge a potential nade, AND still successfully killing him with your nade… that, to me, is a very smart and skilled player.

FPS are so much much much more than just shooting… Which is, quite frankly, why the FPS genre is dying out and has been for the past 10 years. Developers don’t care about the game evolving or players learning new techniques for themselves, they just want to make it as easy as possible, look at Battlefield or CoD… they’re easy, they’re boring, they’re the exact games you want extraction to be, a generic shooter in which grenades and other spam (unless stacked) is essentially… nothing but a tiny scratch of annoyance and the entirety of the game boils down to shooting and… nothing but shooting.

(Protekt1) #59

Grenades take more skill than shooting now… lol… sorry.

(shaftz0r) #60

stopped reading right here