Can we get just a LITTLE clarification?

(DarkangelUK) #21

Spawn times are too short, defence spawn too close to the objective, can spawn any time after counter hits 0 affects team play IMO. I preferred ETQW’s method (IIRC), you could press Space to be sure you hit the spawn as it his 0, if you left it manually and missed the spawn wave though, you had to wait till the next countdown hit 0. More forward spawns are required but NOT en-route to objective, they should still be closer to be worth it but on a side route. Victoria’s forward spawn is just silly, the cap point itself is away from where you spawn and right in the middle of the battlefield

(montheponies) #22

Specific problems, that I have in order of priority;

  1. Symmetrical spawn times - map objectives are a nightmare to complete, essentially you’re grinding through the same defense chokes. Solutions: increase travel time from def spawn by 10s, or increase defense spawntime by 10s. Preferably the latter.
  2. Too much information on opposing team, who’s out, how long they are out for and when they’ll be back in play is all there, it’s like a spawncampers dream. Solution, do not advertise the status of the enemy team, and have spawntimes staggered.
  3. Lack of selectable spawns - removes the ability to tactically ‘fall back’ and increases the prominence of spawncamping as no choice in where to appear. Implement seletable spawns.
  4. Capturable forward spawns - on the one implementation (Victoria/Terminal?) this is clunky and painful. After having sat out in the open for an age waiting to capture it you still spawn behind a building, so it’s reduced travel time but really just to about the same as the defense had from the getgo. This is bleeding into map design, but they are interlinked - basically my experience is that any team that can capture the forward spawn have either gotten lucky or are miles better than the defense (in the main). Solution for me would be to put a flag capture at the MG near the rat building (poor desc sorry), that you touch to get and touch to lose. The team spawns on or near that point. This allows timing to come into it, so you can for example time taking the flag back just before the offense spawn (oh the gnashing of teeth as they all \kill just to end up back at the original spawn mwuhahahah…)

Anyway - for the moment, why not just try fixing problem (1) - put 30s onto the defense clock and see how that plays out, hell even put it on half the servers so you can compare/contrast heat maps and completion times etc?

(potty200) #23

Sure thing. I am going to rattle my small head real quick and come up with a few things I think the current spawn system is affecting the game play.

  • Too many full holds. I honestly feel game play would be so much better to watch and play if the attackers were expected to set a time of aroun 8-12 minutes on 15 minute maps. That is a personal benchmark I think would make the game interesting. Of course, you can have teams do a 1 in 1000 sneak through and set a time of 3-5 minutes or have the strongest team vs the weakest team full hold them! I am not completely against full holds but I think that better teams should be able to at least set a time!

  • Pointless perks;

    • Ammo stations / handing ammo out is useless as you can run in die and respawn. As a defender your spawn is MUCH closer to the objective than the attackers.
    • Help a teammate up? No it is ok that takes 5 seconds and I respawn in about 3 seconds, leave me be, Oops, I got you killed for tapping mid pick up.
    • “Oh damn, they have planted and we are all dead!” - Fear not defenders, if you all die we will reward you for your bad play by giving you the ability to instantly respawn! Press “J” because the skill curve on that is pretty crazy! If you have already used it, again, FEAR NOT! You only have to wait another 5 seconds to spawn.

  • Public play, Yesterday I was playing on a public server and was playing attackers. Joined fairly close to the start I might add. Anyway, after 15 minutes of being pounded in the spawn we switch sides for our turn to spawn camp! Oh wait, it is now 6 vs 1 as all the new attackers have left as they know what is coming… Nobody wants to switch and there we go once again, an empty server :frowning:

  • Make it rewarding to work as a team, move as a team, kill as a team and capture forward spawns as a team. If you do all these right chances are the defenders have respawned and pushed you back into your first spawn anyway. Back to square one after such amazing play, sorry attackers, you are good but you are not god.

  • EVERY map feels awful because of this. EVERY map has teh defenders with the advantage and EVERY map ends up with either no time set or people leaving. *Note: This is NOT a bash at the maps.

  • I still know when the enemy spawns. It’s exactly the same as us! But as an attacker if I run in with 20 seconds to spawn and die it have to wait all that time and run half way through the map to get back to that position I was in.

I honestly struggle to see what else you would need to know right now. Everytime I play on attack I feel like leaving and not coming back for a long time and for someone who has spent countless hours supporting you that cannot be a good thing. Others will surely get this feeling and uninstall and probably not come back, for a while. Changing the times on spawns really cannot be that hard to change? Just add 10 seconds on the defending teams spawn and see what happens. I am not saying this will fix it forever but it will be a HUGE indication as to how wrong the spawn times are now.

(potty200) #24

I would just like to add an idea with this forward spawn which I feel would be better for both teams. Why not remove the current generic “Stand here for 10 seconds to capture” and add a constructable in the office block which opens a new spawn near the MG/Telephone box? Keep the defenders spawning in the same place as I feel their spawn is too strong at the back.

What this also does is gives a small window of opportunity for the defenders to try and blow the office constructable thing up. This is forcing the team to communicate and decide who is going to cover from the office window to make sure the construct thing doesn’t get blown! It requires more team work and is a tonne better than the current stand to capture system you have!

(Hundopercent) #25

[QUOTE=Silvanoshi;504212]Howdy folks,

As many of you are already aware, we are indeed working to bring improvements to the spawn system. Once implemented, we’ll closely monitor the feedback that we receive via both the forum and the Echo to assess whether any further adjustments are required.

What would be really interesting to hear from you right now would be the specific areas of the game that you believe to be affected negatively due to the spawn system. What mechanics, features, gameplay or user flows do you believe are hampered due to the current spawn system? We’re looking for specifics here, elements like the aforementioned concern surrounding the value of ammo refills for example.

The reason for what might appear to be a rather straightforward request is that we want to ensure that perceived issues in certain areas aren’t being incorrectly attributed to the spawn system.

It’d be great to see more of these specifics in the responses below :).

Thanks very much guys, keep the feedback coming![/QUOTE]

Ugh… Why don’t you guys go look at the archived monologues on this? The problems still haven’t changed…

#1 problem maps.
Can’t fix maps without proper spawn timers/system.
Problems happening from maps/spawn system - meat grinder, kill 2 - 3 people, can’t complete objective or distribute ammo/reload because they just respawned and are shooting you in the side/back. The latter happens too often, almost every push.
Objectives require 0 skill/teamwork. It’s a battle of attrition.

I’m sure others will take the time to say more.

(Kendle) #26

Last time I played (few days ago) I think I went through an entire map rotation where it was full hold at 1st stage for both teams every map. That can’t be because the teams were imbalanced. When the attacking team do manage to wipe the defenders they need to stay dead for long enough for some progress to be made. At the moment that just doesn’t happen.

Personally I’d go with montheponies suggestion, just make defenders spawn 30s (attackers 20s) and see what difference that makes (assuming it’s a minor change that can be implemented quickly and easily).

The next thing to do is remove the instant respawn if you miss the next wave. It’s not a “wave” if you can spawn anytime after the clock’s ticked over. By forcing actual proper waves you encourage team-work and allow the best possible chance for one team to wipe the other, and it’s the fact this doesn’t happen and isn’t rewarded even when it occasionally does that’s the primary cause of meat-grind.

3rd, is forward spawns, areas that either team can capture (that start off in the possession of the defending team) and which move the attackers closer to the objective when they have it. And as mentioned, not like the current (only) forward spawn in the game, where it’s too open to take and not enough of an advantage to do so anyway.

4th, is selectable spawn points, both allow attack to spawn to original if a forward spawn is in their possession, and also allow defenders to spawn to “next” spawn location even if they’ve not yet lost the “previous” objective.

Once those mechanics are in place we can then talk about map design. :slight_smile:

(stealth6) #27

I would also like to see this return so that the team is forced to push in waves. If gamers are too stupid to understand this concept, then I’d prefer that we’re not given the choice and are just forced to respawn when the timer hits 0. Allowing the player to spawn whenever is counter productive for teamwork.

(prophett) #28

My example from another thread;

Due to the poor spawns at the moment, every map I have tested is biased toward the defending team.

Spawn Rule

If the time taken for Defenders to get to the objective from spawn PLUS the difference in spawn cycle is LESS than the time taken for Attackers to get to the objective from their spawn, then it’s a DEFENSIVE map. If it’s MORE then it’s OFFENSIVE.

i.e. If a player from each team both die near the objective, which one is more likely to get back there first?

I tested travel times from DB maps. Since the base spawn time is 20s there is no difference in spawn cycle, so that does not play a factor (until the times change, obviously).

Victoria (last objective)

Travel time to objective for the defenders: 11 seconds
Travel time to objective for the attackers (from wall): 20 seconds
Difference: Defense can reach the objective 9 seconds faster
Result: Huge defensive bias on this stage

White Chapel (last objective)

Travel time to objective for the defenders: 8 seconds
Travel time to objective for the attackers: 18 seconds
Difference: Defense can reach the objective 10 seconds faster
Result: Huge defensive bias on this stage

Bridge (1st objective)

Travel time to objective for the defenders: 10 seconds
Travel time to objective for the attackers: 13 seconds
Difference: Defense can reach the objective 3 seconds faster
Result: Slight defensive bias on this stage

Canary Wharf (1st objective)

Travel time to objective for the defenders: 9 seconds
Travel time to objective for the attackers (from wall): 14 seconds
Difference: Defense can reach the objective 5 seconds faster
Result: Moderate defensive bias on this stage

Adjusting times can balance the maps and reduce the meat grind. Having times of 20/30 for attackers/defenders would flip the map in favor of the attacking team and results in more objectives being completed, and more times being set.

(PixelTwitch) #29

[QUOTE=Silvanoshi;504212]Howdy folks,

As many of you are already aware, we are indeed working to bring improvements to the spawn system. Once implemented, we’ll closely monitor the feedback that we receive via both the forum and the Echo to assess whether any further adjustments are required.

[/QUOTE]

My major concern with all this Echo stuff is that it will never tell you if it is FUN or not.

(Silvanoshi) #30

Entirely correct. Which is why it’s not used as the sole feedback source. Player feedback, both internally, from focus testing, and from the community plays an even larger role :).

Thanksf for the feedback so far folks, I realise that many of you have raised similiar points before, however having this info in one concentrated location is usefull.

(titan) #31

Does no one else feel that if the defender spawn time was 30s each map would be finished wayyyyyy too quickly.
Not saying the current system is good but would 30s spawn time really work with these maps. EV push and 5 die your down for what 20 seconds? You can push the ev the entire map in 20 seconds. Feels like maps need to be much much longer to accommodate a 30s spawn time. 2 good wipes and the map will be finished.

(PixelTwitch) #32

[QUOTE=Silvanoshi;504252]Entirely correct. Which is why it’s not used as the sole feedback source. Player feedback, both internally, from focus testing, and from the community plays an even larger role :).

Thanksf for the feedback so far folks, I realise that many of you have raised similiar points before, however having this info in one concentrated location is usefull.[/QUOTE]

I can assure you that none of us (at least not a lot of us) feel like our feedback is taken seriously…
The spawn system vs map design argument is beyond silly…

All I hear is this “making it easier for new people to UNDERSTAND” and yet the systems make it less friendly to new players and the skill gap is so high…

Yes! You can fix a lot of the symptoms on the current map pool via map design but that does not make your systems good.
Good systems should allow for huge variation in map design however ridged systems like these really lock your freedoms down in future.

Lets look at games like Quake/UT/CS… 1000s of maps made and almost every single one playable because the core systems are so strong they can support huge levels of variation and protection vs map based issues.

My biggest thing right now with the spawn system is “we want it simple so people understand it” and you show the time in the TAB screen. How about at least thinking of a convoluted system that works well and then just stick both teams respawn times on the hub and have it working… simples…

(montheponies) #33

In the bad old days when everything was rubbish and we had to make do (with the greatest game ever conceived RTCW) - you could set whatever spawntimes you liked to suit the map / player numbers, it was as trivial as putting into cfg file. But we’re in the shiny future where simple = bad and we’re all wearing rose tinted glasses.

(PixelTwitch) #34

lol actually I have no issues with that…
what I have had issues with since I first came here is people claiming that this is the standard ET system… and… its not…
honestly, apart from giving attackers longer respawns then defenders I do not think you could physically have a worse system then we have now.

(Anti) #35

I reiterate this every few months but I’ll do it again now just for good measure and the new folk who are around. We don’t balance everything based only on Echo data. We look at it and combine it with:

[ul]
[li]Our own experience playing the game
[/li][li]Community feedback
[/li][li]Observing the community playing
[/li][li]Observing the tournaments (thanks Evac zone guys :))
[/li][li]Focus/usability tests
[/li][li]Surveys (we’ve not done one for a while)
[/li][/ul]

The only way you can hope to get a clear picture (if you’re lucky) of how the game is playing is to take in all kinds of feedback, not just one piece.

(PixelTwitch) #36

I feel that any game can be fun when playing with friends.

Community feedback

If you are doing well its FUN, if you have only been playing for a hour or so it is FUN and when playing with friends it is FUN.
That mixed with the majority of us actually really liking/respecting you guys means we (at least I am) sugar coating my feedback at times. I think the majority of the community right now would say its pretty frustrating.

Observing the community playing

Cool, however I am sure you are also seeing the speed in which people uninstall the game and do not come back.

Observing the tournaments (thanks Evac zone guys )

We hope that eventually you will have a rule set implmented so we do not need to have one. Right now we have a lot of infighting when it comes to compeitive over rulesets because right now this 3 mercs per player and multiples allowed is beyond dull/borked.

Focus/usability tests

Would love at some point for you guys to explain to us what you actually gained from the focus testings… Right now all we seem to see is focus testing poor systems on broken maps on a none competitive viable mode. Not to mention low player numbers, high rage quit and poor balance. Again, I am sure this may come down to poor communication between devs and community but many of us are struggling to see the point right now.

Surveys

I would recommend doing a multiple survay on the next lot of keys you hand out. Make them do a survay before they first play the game (via registering the key or soon as they enter in game) then do a second survay if they play more then 6 hours. Basically to line up the expectations to the results. I feel this is the only way you are going to get a clear vision of the flaws that obviously the guys here (and me) are missing as we are still here.

EDIT:// Sorry ANTI I do not mean any disrespect and I did not mean it to sound agressive or anything. (I struggle to articulate myself sometimes). I have total respect for you devs, I am just frustrated like most of the other people.

(chippy) #37

While I’ve not been the most active on the developer fridays, it would be nice to see more of you SD folk around on those days and overall for that matter. Specially on Victoria, the current state of the spawn system is most apparent on that map.

Not only that, but if we see you around ingame more frequently we could possibly report the small things that quite often just gets forgotten within a couple of minutes. Who knows, one of those small things may have a much larger impact if/when fixed. As a bonus when seeing more of you boys ingame more often you could say we get slightly more “confident” in that you actually test the stuff with us, all kinds of players, skill groups and all that bejazzle. :slight_smile:

(Anti) #38

[QUOTE=chippy;504276]While I’ve not been the most active on the developer fridays, it would be nice to see more of you SD folk around on those days and overall for that matter. Specially on Victoria, the current state of the spawn system is most apparent on that map.

Not only that, but if we see you around ingame more frequently we could possibly report the small things that quite often just gets forgotten within a couple of minutes. Who knows, one of those small things may have a much larger impact if/when fixed. As a bonus when seeing more of you boys ingame more often you could say we get slightly more “confident” in that you actually test the stuff with us, all kinds of players, skill groups and all that bejazzle. :)[/QUOTE]

Some of us do play quite a bit, but it can be hard for us to play sometimes when as soon as we join a server we get 100s of questions and bug reports :smiley:

It’s nicer to get feedback and bugs here on the forum and to experience the game when we play :wink:

(BomBaKlaK) #39

Use a smurf account, or maybe a better idea you can communicate more ! About what’s next or what is planed in a near futur. We have only some quick blury awser on a thread sometimes giving more questions to the players.
Then maybe people won’t have any question, only bug report :stuck_out_tongue:

Most of us here don’t know where you want to go, so many stange choices …

(rookie1) #40

[QUOTE=Anti;504289]Some of us do play quite a bit, but it can be hard for us to play sometimes when as soon as we join a server we get 100s of questions and bug reports :smiley:

It’s nicer to get feedback and bugs here on the forum and to experience the game when we play :wink:[/QUOTE]

Totally agree with you