Brink vs ETQW: A comparison


(Verticae) #1

I’ve been wanting to write this down for a while, hence, I figured I might as well do it. It’s a comparison between Splash Damage’s previous title, Enemy Territory: Quake Wars, and its most recent work, Brink. They have a lot of common ground between them, but there’s some distinct differences; some of them are design choices so strange, I simply can’t understand them.

Note: Comparison from the perspective of a competitive ETQW player, but in regards to vanilla ETQW1.5 in public play.

Movement:
Personally, I believe ETQW’s movement was pretty damn awesome. It might have lacked the speed and possibilities of Wolf:ET, but it was a good half-way: Plenty of trickjump possibilities, decent ways to gain speed; basically, a lot of good stuff you can use to widen the gap between newbies and experienced players, without having to resort to unlocks.

Brink’s movement is… Poor, to say the least. Having played around with it a lot, using primarily the Light bodytype, I’ll conclude that it’s a lot less smooth than ETQW’s - and that’s a shame for something called ‘Smooth Movement Across Random Terrain’. The latter part of that name also doesn’t apply; the majority of the jumps SMART actually is good for, aren’t random at all; they’re area’s that are obviously implemented for the exact purpose of using the SMART system.

Weapons:
Looking at ETQW, the weapon system is vastly different than Brink. Of course, weapons were limited to classes, an there was a total of only 12 different weapons per side… But those weapons were sufficiently defined to be useful (just ignore the post-1.2 shotgun, kay). At least, I was usually able to tell whether I was being shot at with a railgun, hyperblaster or lacerator - it’s all pretty distinct, both in functionality, visuals and sound design.

Brink has a much larger amount of weapons, which aren’t restricted to any class, but are all far less distinct. Minute differences cause a few to be used, and that’s that. Of course, this means players will be more likely to change class, since unlike ETQW, they can keep using the same gun when they do… but since the abilities system effectively cancels that out, I think weapon restrictions could’ve been kept in just as easily.

A final word on the weapon spread: ETQW’s was a little big, but good enough for pub, Brink’s is completely ridiculous. I’ve mentioned it on these forums before, but: While teamwork should be important, leave some room for individual skill and the game improves tenfold. Just look at how most people will be able to tell you their favourite football player, but very few will be able to explain to you which tactic they most appreciate seeing. Bring back the lower spread, and let the aimers go and have their multikills!

Tweaking:
In ETQW, I could set binds per team, per class, per vehicle, with modifiers and whatnot. I could change the opacity of different HUD elements, and I could change the shape and colour of my crosshair to something I could see and use at all times during a match. And all of that was just through the ingame menu! Opening up notepad and making my own autoexec, I could even write elaborate scripts to change class and weapon loadout at the press of a button.

Brink just has a crapload of locked cvars.

Miscellaneous:
While this might just sound like a buttload of praise for ETQW, it isn’t; it had its flaws, too. Some maps had a pretty bad design (outskirts, anyone), and the vehicles could’ve been toned down quite a bit. I think that the competitive scene’s decision to not allow heavy vehicles on the last objective, was a great one in that respect. The deployables could get pretty powerful, and the spamming of grenades annoyed me to death on pubs. However, ETQW also had some other good points: The visuals were very clean, and the classes instantly recognisable. I’ve seen solo defenders stop an early rush simply by picking off objective classes quickly; it lead to some of the most intense combat I’ve seen in any FPS.

On the first few mentioned items, Brink does better. The deployables might be underpowered this time, but the lack of vehicles and limits to grenade spam are wonderful additions to the formula. The visuals on the game, though, feel messy. There’s a lot of rubble, a lot of clashing colours and textures; these things just annoy me, especially when they make it hard to see opponents. Even worse when I can’t tell the opponent’s class; that entire tactical aspect is just gone. Quite a shame there, too.

Conclusion:
That basically sums up what I’ve been pondering about lately in relation to Brink. Seeing as SD has gained a bit of a following between WolfET and ETQW, I feel like they’ve let down their previous customers by releasing the game in this state. I understand patches/mods might fix that, and I do truly hope that they will; the game has the potential to blow the competition out of the water… But commercially, it’ll most likely be too late by then, and that’s a damn shame.


(zenstar) #2

Just a matter of interest: what platform(s) are you comparing on?
I won’t say I agree with all of your points but I appreciate the effort you’ve put into structuring them.

I personally haven’t had an issue with SMART. I’ve found some awesome tricks with the light body type. I do miss jumppacks but at least I’m not getting sniped out of the air by locked on rockets anymore :slight_smile:

I disagree on the weapons/class front. I think there’s quite a difference in the range of weapons available. Sure you can’t really tell what you’re being shot with as easily but being able to find just the right gun for your playstyle is great and if you look at the threads arguing over X being great / terrible I think it’s obvious that there’s a good variation.

And abilities don’t lock you to classes. Plenty of people prefer not to buy certain abilities they don’t use so that they can have a 2 class character and will switch during the game. Sure “pure” classes currently make you less efective in other roles but I see this being less of an issue soon since the DLC brings 4 new levels and only 1 new ability per class. Also: the “all” abilities work for all (suprisingly :slight_smile: ).

The tweaking I completely agree on. Very locked down, but as I understand it there’s a bunch of balance variables? I generally stick to vanilla gameplay so it doesn’t affect me too much (yep. I pub) but more openess is normally a good thing.

I agree on deployables (I don’t think they’re underpowered. I think they’re just right) and grenade spam limits.
On PC I don’t have an issue with clashing textures and colours. I think it depicts the rundown nature of the slums on the Ark… but then again maybe I just don’t have any taste :stuck_out_tongue:

I think your conclusion is a bit harsh. I really enjoy the game. Sure, I’d like to see support take it even higher and hopefully people won’t give up on it quite yet.


(king_troll) #3

etc, etc. all of splashes games are the idea and gameplay, which is what the hype mainly was behind brink, splashes first IP, the world was expecting better then wolf and quakewars, but they got a bug filled recoded idtech4

people like wolf:ET class system
people like quakewars vehicles
people like brinks menus and customization

= brink 2


(AnthonyDa) #4

nope.

(+IDIOTSCHARZZZZZZZZ)


(king_troll) #5

[QUOTE=AnthonyDa;332253]nope.

(+IDIOTSCHARZZZZZZZZ)[/QUOTE]

nobody on here has destroyed them in an obvious way, objective wheel is duff, quakewars side menu is better


(morguen87) #6

I agree on being able to recognize classes. I don’t care about dressing my character up like a barbie doll. I care about being able to immediately identify the most important target when a handful of guys come rushing towards the objective

Hell, just being able to recognize a player from the other team easier would be a step in the right direction. What’s wrong with just red/blue people? I’ve been killed a few times from enemies in front of other players on my team, I’ll see the name above their head from the guy on my team and either hesitate or just go about my business only to quickly be cut down.

There’s nothing wrong with just red/blue colors for everyone depending what team they’re on. I know you guys wanted to be innovative and all, but don’t try to reinvent the wheel here. Class specific armor/clothing is a must. If people want to play barbie, they should buy a dreamhouse or a wrestling game.

I know this won’t change, but I having an option to toggle it would be amazing. Something like a “force team models” box you can click and the people who are more concerned about playing barbie can leave it unticked


(zenstar) #7

[QUOTE=morguen87;332256]I agree on being able to recognize classes. I don’t care about dressing my character up like a barbie doll. I care about being able to immediately identify the most important target when a handful of guys come rushing towards the objective

Hell, just being able to recognize a player from the other team easier would be a step in the right direction. What’s wrong with just red/blue people? I’ve been killed a few times from enemies in front of other players on my team, I’ll see the name above their head from the guy on my team and either hesitate or just go about my business only to quickly be cut down.

There’s nothing wrong with just red/blue colors for everyone depending what team they’re on. I know you guys wanted to be innovative and all, but don’t try to reinvent the wheel here. Class specific armor/clothing is a must. If people want to play barbie, they should buy a dreamhouse or a wrestling game.

I know this won’t change, but I having an option to toggle it would be amazing. Something like a “force team models” box you can click and the people who are more concerned about playing barbie can leave it unticked[/QUOTE]

Enemies have a redness to them. I agree it could be more visible but there is a distinction.
I don’t think forcing class models is the answer here. I’d just rather see (and this would solve both issues) a small red class icon over the enemy’s head whenever they are in view.

Enemy recognition: yes, class recognition: yes, full customisation: yes. Not that I find it a major issue but it would be a “nice to have”.


(DarkangelUK) #8

I wonder if having class specific outfits was ever considered, so each class only ever had a specific set of clothing options available to them… you could still customize your look, but it stayed within a specific style to that class.


(morguen87) #9

The icons don’t really help in a big firefight, when everyone’s moving around a lot and when guys are behind one another. A small hesitation in a game like this can make the difference in getting the kill/having to respawn and shooting the wrong target can very much make the difference between winning/losing a match. Armor identification is much more practical.

It’s kind of silly that something so important and functional was sacrificed for outfits.


(zenstar) #10

I kind of like the fact that you need to work a bit to weed out the objective classes (maybe that’s because my primary character is an engineer). I like the homogenisation of classes / looks. Anyone could be anything and everyone can shoot just as well as the next person. It makes it very even across the board.

Technically I think you can identify classes by their backpacks but that’s pretty much impossible ingame.


(EnderWiggin.DA.) #11

Honestly the map size and weapons of Brink are closer to what I was hoping for with ETQW. I enjoyed ETQW a lot, but I prefer Brink. Also I feel they got the medic class balanced better with the rof and ammo. Definitely more emphasis on temawork in Brink imo.


(morguen87) #12

It’s just confusing to me that in some aspects brink tries to cater to people who love the objective based gameplay like not implementing tdm or k/d ratio (I love that they didn’t, by the way), but then they did weird stuff that only hurts objective based gameplay by not making different classes recognizable and messing up voice chat.

Outfits would be a small novelty in a ffa, they’re not needed at all in a team game and actually detract from the overall experience.
Haha, it turns out playing a team based shooter with characters that all look like they’re ripped from custom wrestlemania 2000 rosters isn’t as cool as it sounds.


(dazman76) #13

The fact that the initial “customise character” (on character selection) allows only body customisations and not weapon or ability selection, is an odd decision I thought. It means you go through two different routes to customise and then to change loadouts, if you use the “customise character” button. It’s not broken or anything, it just doesn’t seem to fit properly - I tend to just “select character” now, then do all the customisation from the main menu that follows, as it seems more logical - you have to do that anyway, to change your loadout. Aside from that - I have no complaints about the menus I guess :slight_smile:

As an ET:QW fan myself, I’m always interested in hearing the opinions of players who I’m familiar with - I have my own bunch of likes/dislikes when it comes to ET:QW comparison.

I’m unsure on the class recognition - although in the end, I probably would vote yes for recognisable class-specific outfits. I feel it favours the experienced player, but let’s face it - if you can’t quickly learn to recognise the custom outfit for each class, it probably stands to reason that SD’s flavour of game isn’t for you :slight_smile:

Movement - with an amount of disappointment, I have to agree. I really don’t feel that SMART brings genuine improvements to the table, compared to ET:QWs movement. As Vert said, ET:QW movement just felt right - smooth, flowing. While sliding is fun, climbing over things is far from smooth in some situations :slight_smile: And again as Vert pointed out - aside from wall-hopping, most SMART really does take place over “obvious” rather than random terrain. Hopping onto crates, climbing a wall but in the exact place where there’s a gap in the fence above - there’s really nothing random about that. In addition, the default values for the SMART detection can result in unwanted parkour moments - these are easy to predict, but not always easy to avoid in the heat of battle. I feel this is partly down to the “sprint + smart on one button” idea - something I personally don’t like at all. Same with the use key, but we’ve flogged that one elsewhere :slight_smile:

Weapons - I guess I’m unsure on this one. When I look on the weapons screen, I personally see too much information. I sit there trying to compare damage, and stability, and then trying out modifications changes each stat and you can only see one gun at onceHOLY CRAP, just give me a Lacerator and let me goooooo! :slight_smile: Some people might like the stat-crafting, I personally don’t - if a selection of guns was on the cards, I’d prefer a small selection that is very easy (and quick) to compare and upgrade. I don’t think what we have at the moment achieves that - partly because there are too many of each type of gun, and partly because the UI just isn’t built for quick comparison. Verdict - yeah, I’d prefer a Lacerator please - or simply a smaller, more easily compared selection.

Tweaking - hell yes. I’m not one to go tweaking the UI like crazy, but for the love of Darwin, please allow us to multi-bind things like revive, buff, sprint, SMART. These very simple, small things make me feel like banging my head against a wall. Did nobody play Medic in fast-paced matches during QA? :slight_smile: grumble

Conclusion - I agree with Vert on this too. Having played both previous SD titles (although far more ET:QW than W:ET), I can’t help feeling they’ve missed a whole bunch of tricks that would have pleased fans no end. That isn’t the worst thing though - the worst thing is that these tricks wouldn’t have put off players completely new players, had they been OPTIONAL. I know Brink is a new game, and was never intended to be ET:QW 2. However, it’s a game by the same developers, in the same style, with many of the same mechanics - so why didn’t it turn out as good? Some of the major complaints really do amount to “ET:QW had this - why no Brink hmm?” - given the fact that Brink is bleeding players on all platforms right now, it’s hard to see how carrying some of these missed tricks over from ET:QW would have been a bad thing. I certainly don’t think it would have increased the player bleed, that’s for sure.

TL;DR - Sorry for the big post :slight_smile: Mostly, I agree with Verticae, and I see exactly where his frustration is coming from. And I share it, too.


(zenstar) #14

Just a quick thing:
To sprint you tap the SMART key and release. You stay sprinting until you stop moving forward. Holding the key down enables SMART.
So if you want to sprint but don’t want SMART engaged just tap once. Don’t see why 2 keys would make any real difference to that.


(dazman76) #15

[QUOTE=zenstar;332291]Just a quick thing:
To sprint you tap the SMART key and release. You stay sprinting until you stop moving forward. Holding the key down enables SMART.
So if you want to sprint but don’t want SMART engaged just tap once. Don’t see why 2 keys would make any real difference to that.[/QUOTE]

Because I’m used to holding the sprint key, and I can’t get out of the habit - I found toggle switches for crouch and iron sights, but not for sprint. Also, I’d much rather decide (by pressing either crouch or jump) when I want to use SMART - I really don’t get any benefit from having it activate automatically. In fact, it causes me quite a bit of trouble :slight_smile: Especially accidental sliding when I wanted crouch, or attempting to mount the sides of stairs when I just wanted to sprint. Nice for controllers, pretty pointless for keyboard users. I also don’t like “you sprint till you stop” controls - clunky, and most games do not take that approach.

You have to remember, I’m a PC player - having more than one “anything” on a single key, makes no sense for me - I’ve never liked it in any game that used that approach, and I don’t think I ever will. It should have been optional - those who like single use and single SMART keys could have them, whereas those who like to bind specific keys could also do that. I’m far better at juggling multiple keys, than I am at remembering not to hold something down because it has dual functions :slight_smile:

EDIT: In fact, I would go as far as saying that SMART is simply a pointless marketing mechanism :slight_smile: You can do everything that SMART does by simply using crouch and jump at the right times - therefore, it’s not a requirement when playing with keyboard and mouse. I’ve been jumping and crouching for years, waiting for a game that allowed me to slide and scale things - now I have it, the damn thing tries to do it for me - not cool :slight_smile:


(zenstar) #16

[QUOTE=dazman76;332298]Because I’m used to holding the sprint key, and I can’t get out of the habit - I found toggle switches for crouch and iron sights, but not for sprint. Also, I’d much rather decide (by pressing either crouch or jump) when I want to use SMART - I really don’t get any benefit from having it activate automatically. In fact, it causes me quite a bit of trouble :slight_smile: Especially accidental sliding when I wanted crouch, or attempting to mount the sides of stairs when I just wanted to sprint. Nice for controllers, pretty pointless for keyboard users. I also don’t like “you sprint till you stop” controls - clunky, and most games do not take that approach.

You have to remember, I’m a PC player - having more than one “anything” on a single key, makes no sense for me - I’ve never liked it in any game that used that approach, and I don’t think I ever will. It should have been optional - those who like single use and single SMART keys could have them, whereas those who like to bind specific keys could also do that. I’m far better at juggling multiple keys, than I am at remembering not to hold something down because it has dual functions :slight_smile:

EDIT: In fact, I would go as far as saying that SMART is simply a pointless marketing mechanism :slight_smile: You can do everything that SMART does by simply using crouch and jump at the right times - therefore, it’s not a requirement when playing with keyboard and mouse. I’ve been jumping and crouching for years, waiting for a game that allowed me to slide and scale things - now I have it, the damn thing tries to do it for me - not cool :)[/QUOTE]
Hmm… I’m a PC gamer too and I disagree with some of your comments.
But I guess it’s what controls make you most comfortable.
I agree with you though: There should be complete customization so you can set things up the way you want to and I can set them up the way I want to.


(cheezespread) #17

Verticae is alive !


(wolfnemesis75) #18

Is it a fair comparison to compare Brink with ETQW, or for that matter, VS? Aren’t they two completely different games in terms of setting, game mechanics, and style?


(INF3RN0) #19

They are. ETQW was just better.


(Kalbuth) #20

Cheezeeh is alive too!!!

Well, what to say…
About movement, I can only agree with Vert. After liking SMART a lot, then grumping about these moment when SMART takes over and forces you to do movements you didn’t want to, then trying jumps that do not work, I relaunched ET:QW just to compare.
Well, in terms of fluidness, QW wins. In terms of speed too, wehereas I remember QW as being somewhat slow. The strafe speed of lightie in Brink is maybe faster, making for some faster moments in the game, but with a lil bit of strafe, movement in QW is just smoother and faster
SMART is like a continuously running algorithm making you stick on the ground, enabling little jumps, and activating when it encounters the proper obstacle (and only the proper obstacle)
Why is there no more speed dynamic, strafe jumping, ramp jumping? Why is SMART deciding everything?
There’s a few dynamic moment in SMART when you accelerate, I’ve yet to understand what governs that, and they are very few in the maps, tbh.
Why didn’t they keep the old movement system, and use SMART button as a “use your hands” button, allowing character to hold on objects it could once activated, at height compatible with player’s morpho? We would still have strafe and ramp jumps, we’ll still be allowed smooth acceleration, and controlled trickjump, not something that the engine decide to do for you.

As for weapons, I’m in a mix.
1st, maps scale are bigger in QW, making for necessary more precise weapons, you shoot ennemy from farther away.
That said, Brink weapon are currently too spready, even though I don’t dislike their handling, tbh.
But Vert’s main point on weapons is spot on : they lack personality. In fact, there are too many of them, making each ones in their respective category too much like the others in the category. And making balance between them all the more difficult, resulting in what we now see : Carb-9 supremacy
On top of it, there’s no forced weapon diversification through class enforcement. I’m not sure it’s that good, tbh. It’s getting away from the teamplay mind of ET:QW

Very good points by Vert, but they are pointing out flaws that are hardly correctable :frowning:
I don’t see them changing the movement (bring back strafe & ramp jumps!)
I don’t see them reducing number of weapons
I don’t see them limit weapon types per class