Brink Competition Round-up: The Right Rules and More

(wolfnemesis75) #181

[QUOTE=Verticae;340275]What’s with all this ‘not how the game was supposed to be played’ crap? If the game was released the way it was ‘supposed to be played’, well then, we wouldn’t need any balance tweaks or DLC, would we?

Competition and public play are different things. They demand different setups. It’s not about what people like or not, it’s about what options the game has to offer the competitive playerbase as a means to compare skill and strategy. Let’s take a look, and compare pub to comp, shall we?

Let’s start with teamsize. Pub is 8v8, comp is 5v5. That difference alone is so immense, you can’t simply ignore it; different teamsizes make different weapons/abilities either weaker or stronger. In example; two mines could take out half a team if used properly; that’s a bit much for just placing two items in the right place.

The other is the objective. While most pub games are campaign or single map, in competition, it’s all about stopwatch; to see who can set the fastest time on a map. Now, if both teams set equal times, where do you decide a winner? 1% of a hack? That’s pretty sad; not to mention that it’s no fun to watch and takes forever to play a full match, causing a huge drop in motivation.

[B]The last thing is the communication. As highly as you may think of yourself; no pub communication will ever be as good as a well-oiled competitive team. Callouts, strats, thinking up counter-strategies in the blink of an eye; that is where competition excels. In public play, this doesn’t exist at the same level, so you get other ‘strategic’ options, such as huge turrets and cortex.

I understand that pub players have no idea of how the competitive scene actually works, but for the love of the Makron, don’t assume it’s similar to public play. Please remember; before you play competitive, you usually have played quite a bit of vanilla pub to get to know the game[/B].[/QUOTE]
You were going strong until you got to the bold part. This is simply not true. More perception than reality. That’s like saying in Basketball you’d not get great players playing street ball and there’s no way they’d be able to compete with Pro Ball players. Simply not true.

(BioSnark) #182

While you’re calling out arguments you should acknowledge that your refutation is essentially you stating something as fact without backing it in any way.

(its al bout security) #183

FACT most people here think esl rules are bull

(Thundermuffin) #184

No, Vert is still completely right; no matter what a random pub team will pale in comparison to any comp team’s communication. That’s just how it is, because they practice these things all the time. When I play 360, my friends and I have strategies for games, but they’re nothing close to what I had when I played ET:QW competitively and the strats we had for BRINK and my friends would never have been able to come up with some of the strats we did in ET:QW at the blink of an eye.

You really just don’t get it; no matter how I, riptide, Vert, or anyone else who plays or has played a ET style game competitively tell you that the stuff you want will break our game you won’t believe us. Considering RtCW came out in 2001, we’ve had 10 years to figure out what would break this style of game. You’ve had about a month, right? I’m sure you’re completely educated on the ins and outs of this style of gameplay.

You do realize that downed fire/martydom/whatever else crap perks were in CoD were taken out in competitive play, right? :slight_smile: GoW isn’t on the PC so it’s a moot point when we’re discussing PC competition and horribly unbalanced perks.

No, 2 of you think you know more than the whole PC competitive community and think every bit of it is bull, while the rest of us see it as something that would fix BRINK’s balance for competitive play as long as we tweak and work on things as patches and DLC come out.

(BioSnark) #185

Make your own and play them on console comps.

(riptide) #186

Why is the SAS Elite or Navy Seal teams better than some of the other elite squads that are more than capable. Let’s compare them to militants from Alabama… do you see where I’m going with this? Your retort is poorly thought out.

Fact is a group of people who have been playing together and had the highest level of training and play at that level… will always have better communication, strategy and execution than anyone below their level. This includes pub players and “gaming buddies”. That’s not to say that your team can’t be you gaming buddies but that’s a different topic all together.

Look at the QL CTF draft last month where there were tons of good players on the same team that were playing worse than when they were on their own team. These players know how to play and adjust but the teamwork was lacking because they had very little time to practice and fine tune strategy.

Now are you saying you are better than people that have been paid to play video games for years? Do you have a better understanding of gameplay mechanics and to what extent they will affect things? How they will be abused? How much value an ability is given? Does it change the gameplay for better or worse? Are they going to create strategies that revolve around that one ability? If so, will that make the game faster paced or slow it down? If it slows it down does it become methodical or monotonous? If it speeds it up does it make it too chaotic or is there still room for strategic play? Is it still fun and exciting? If not, then it probably has no place in competitive play.

edit: I do want to clarify that the current restrictions are not perfect but there will most definitely need to be restrictions.

(wolfnemesis75) #187

[QUOTE=riptide;340347]Why is the SAS Elite or Navy Seal teams better than some of the other elite squads that are more than capable. Let’s compare them to militants from Alabama… do you see where I’m going with this? Your retort is poorly thought out.

Fact is a group of people who have been playing together and had the highest level of training and play at that level… will always have better communication, strategy and execution than anyone below their level. This includes pub players and “gaming buddies”. That’s not to say that your team can’t be you gaming buddies but that’s a different topic all together.

Look at the QL CTF draft last month where there were tons of good players on the same team that were playing worse than when they were on their own team. These players know how to play and adjust but the teamwork was lacking because they had very little time to practice and fine tune strategy.

Now are you saying you are better than people that have been paid to play video games for years? Do you have a better understanding of gameplay mechanics and to what extent they will affect things? How they will be abused? How much value an ability is given? Does it change the gameplay for better or worse? Are they going to create strategies that revolve around that one ability? If so, will that make the game faster paced or slow it down? If it slows it down does it become methodical or monotonous? If it speeds it up does it make it too chaotic or is there still room for strategic play? Is it still fun and exciting? If not, then it probably has no place in competitive play.

edit: I do want to clarify that the current restrictions are not perfect but there will most definitely need to be restrictions.[/QUOTE]

Hey, man. All I have to say is go back through the thread and read both sides of the argument. I am not the only one who is discussing these rules and how they could be a better refection of the game with its abilities and classes. So, let’s be fair. Sometimes this “Me Pro” is just an artificial wall because we are talking about a video game here, not navy seals. Or Basketball. So yeah, check out some of the other posts! Peace out! :slight_smile:

(Apoc) #188

[quote=Anti;339780]Took the words out of my mouth. It’s alright telling people “try our rules, you might like them” but most people already playing a game don’t want to join a clan to try something different, they want to join a clan to play the game they play.

The Comp scene definitely has to be more considerate of that than it has been in the last 5 years or so and there are good examples why. The most competitive games and communities on PC right now, things like SC2, HoN and LoL, don’t deviate from the core rules much if at all. Something to think about.[/quote]

Without sounding too negative but people have been dropping off pub servers to play other games steadily since release at quite an alarming rate. The comp scene has stayed solid, many of the players i play with feel that the pub game isnt worth playing, yet the comp side has great potential due to the restrictions.

Also nearly everyone in the comp community spent the first few weeks playing plenty of scrims with no restrictions at all. We arent just stripping it of things for no reason. Downed fire, adrenaline and self revive all proved incredibly “annoying”, for want of a better word, i mean to kill a player in comp which is challenging as it is, but then to get shot by them lying down with a pistol…it has no place in comp, its cheap, and although you say gib players, i cant help but notice that your melee mechanic to gib players plays an animation that takes nearly a second, and thats if it realises your trying to gib someone. Obviously if you try to do this to players with downed fire you just die halfway through the animation. So then you say well then just shoot the player…all well and good unless you just used all your ammo killing them the first time…aka another guaranteed death.

I could go on with the other abilities but i wont bore you. Point is your game isnt in a good enough state at the moment to even be mentioned in the same sentence as games like SC2 in terms of out of the box competitiveness.

Dont blame the comp players for changing a game clearly built around consoles, we are just trying to make the game as successful an esport as possible, which isnt possible in the games original state.

For a game boasting about its levels of customisability and replayability, maybe it should be a little more accepting about the game being played in different ways. Something to think about.

(its al bout security) #189

[QUOTE=its al bout security;340233]ESL rules take brink right
then they look at splash damage…
and they say OH HAI WE DONT LIKE YOUR GAME SOOO… we made it that if you want to win any money or enter any of our competitions online you have to play the wrong way.

sorry i think this isnt how SD made the game to be played. i think all these competitions bann things because they are just trying to flex some muscles of how important they think they are.

in the end its not how the game was meant to be played, you just made an operative pretty useless to tactically inept. GJ ESL[/QUOTE]

wow this guy is a genius he said it all… took the words right outta my mouth!

hey can someone lock this thread

ಠ_ಠ

(Shadowcat) #190

The way i see it, the restirctions went something like this:

Downed Fire, Cortex Bomb, Self-Revive, Adrenaline, nerves of steel and maybe satchel charges I can accept. People have made arguments for them that work well enough.

Command post upgrade and firewall aren’t so much banned as completely useless with their rules (although questioning if disabling command post bonuses is a good idea is a completely different conversation, it seems like offense would either gain an advantage, or defense would have to leave their stronghold, either would spice things up). So there’s half the restrictions accounted for.

Then They removed homing beacon and comms hack because “it can take the place of communication”. How does that make sense? The way i see it, good voice communication makes the abilities less useful, so why bother banning them? Throw in EMP grenade, because “it can slow down the HE bomb” even though defense shouldnt ever have an operative, and the class is crippled.

Now that no one plays operatives, they have to make even more restrictions because there isn’t a direct counter for mines and turrets.

Like i said first, some of them make sense, but questionable restrictions just lead to larger and larger restrictions.

(BioSnark) #191

In my humble opinion, the most important issue is one that’s being ignored because it can only be fixed by Splash Damage. Stopwatch spawn times. Some ability restrictions could be reconsidered if vanilla stopwatch is fixed.

(xdc) #192

after reading the blog entry in OPs post, ill never touch brinks competition, as if it could get any more dead.

restrictions on the abilities, and silly rules are a terrible way of trying to make the game more ‘frag-like’ (which isn’t skill in brink unfortunately)

brink comp would need a SDK, dev team, etc to make it happen, brink is in no shape a competitive game.
who ever came up with the rules/restrictions are just looking towards a fail, brink comp will never happen without the SDK

(BMXer) #193

[QUOTE=Apoc;340382]Without sounding too negative but people have been dropping off pub servers to play other games steadily since release at quite an alarming rate. The comp scene has stayed solid, many of the players i play with feel that the pub game isnt worth playing, yet the comp side has great potential due to the restrictions.

Also nearly everyone in the comp community spent the first few weeks playing plenty of scrims with no restrictions at all. We arent just stripping it of things for no reason. Downed fire, adrenaline and self revive all proved incredibly “annoying”, for want of a better word, i mean to kill a player in comp which is challenging as it is, but then to get shot by them lying down with a pistol…it has no place in comp, its cheap, and although you say gib players, i cant help but notice that your melee mechanic to gib players plays an animation that takes nearly a second, and thats if it realises your trying to gib someone. Obviously if you try to do this to players with downed fire you just die halfway through the animation. So then you say well then just shoot the player…all well and good unless you just used all your ammo killing them the first time…aka another guarenteed death.

I could go on with the other abilities but i wont bore you. Point is your game isnt in a good enough state at the moment to even be mentioned in the same sentence as games like SC2 in terms of out of the box competitiveness.

Dont blame the comp players for changing a game clearly built around consoles, we are just trying to make the game as successful an esport as possible, which isnt possible in the games original state.

For a game boasting about its levels of customisability and replayability, maybe it should be a little more accepting about the game being played in different ways. Something to think about.[/QUOTE]

+1,000,000 and then +1 again just to be sure.

(kgptzac) #194

The rules are overly restricting and dissuading. Mostly important of all, they strip away Brink’s uniqueness and make the gameplay badly generic like a vanilla FPS game with some class distinction; that doesn’t sound very interesting to me.

IMO the only two abilities justifiable to “ban” from competitive plays are adrenaline and shrapnel bomb, as there is no counter to them. You can counter downed fire, self revive and cortex bomb by actually shooting at the incapacitated enemy and make them die, you know.

(its al bout security) #195

that its al bout security feller sure is smart and he has been on planetary eearth for a while.

(Kendle) #196

I really think this thread should be locked now, it’s the same handful of people posting walls of text about stuff they have no experience of.

Please, I urge anyone who thinks they have a valid opinion about how competition should be played but who’s never played a clan match, go play a few pickup games, or better yet join a clan, play a few matches in an organised competition. Accept that they might not be using a ruleset you agree with but try it anyway.

Then come back here and tell us you still feel the same way.

(.Chris.) #197

Agree with Kendle and Apoc, in short, don’t knock it till you tried it.

(Humate) #198

[QUOTE=Apoc;340382]Without sounding too negative but people have been dropping off pub servers to play other games steadily since release at quite an alarming rate. The comp scene has stayed solid, many of the players i play with feel that the pub game isnt worth playing, yet the comp side has great potential due to the restrictions.

Also nearly everyone in the comp community spent the first few weeks playing plenty of scrims with no restrictions at all. We arent just stripping it of things for no reason. Downed fire, adrenaline and self revive all proved incredibly “annoying”, for want of a better word, i mean to kill a player in comp which is challenging as it is, but then to get shot by them lying down with a pistol…it has no place in comp, its cheap, and although you say gib players, i cant help but notice that your melee mechanic to gib players plays an animation that takes nearly a second, and thats if it realises your trying to gib someone. Obviously if you try to do this to players with downed fire you just die halfway through the animation. So then you say well then just shoot the player…all well and good unless you just used all your ammo killing them the first time…aka another guarenteed death.

I could go on with the other abilities but i wont bore you. Point is your game isnt in a good enough state at the moment to even be mentioned in the same sentence as games like SC2 in terms of out of the box competitiveness.

Dont blame the comp players for changing a game clearly built around consoles, we are just trying to make the game as successful an esport as possible, which isnt possible in the games original state.

For a game boasting about its levels of customisability and replayability, maybe it should be a little more accepting about the game being played in different ways. Something to think about.[/QUOTE]

Thanks for reiterating a more polite version of my post.
I agree 100%.

(ras) #199

[QUOTE=Apoc;340382]Without sounding too negative but people have been dropping off pub servers to play other games steadily since release at quite an alarming rate. The comp scene has stayed solid, many of the players i play with feel that the pub game isnt worth playing, yet the comp side has great potential due to the restrictions.

Also nearly everyone in the comp community spent the first few weeks playing plenty of scrims with no restrictions at all. We arent just stripping it of things for no reason. Downed fire, adrenaline and self revive all proved incredibly “annoying”, for want of a better word, i mean to kill a player in comp which is challenging as it is, but then to get shot by them lying down with a pistol…it has no place in comp, its cheap, and although you say gib players, i cant help but notice that your melee mechanic to gib players plays an animation that takes nearly a second, and thats if it realises your trying to gib someone. Obviously if you try to do this to players with downed fire you just die halfway through the animation. So then you say well then just shoot the player…all well and good unless you just used all your ammo killing them the first time…aka another guarenteed death.

I could go on with the other abilities but i wont bore you. Point is your game isnt in a good enough state at the moment to even be mentioned in the same sentence as games like SC2 in terms of out of the box competitiveness.

Dont blame the comp players for changing a game clearly built around consoles, we are just trying to make the game as successful an esport as possible, which isnt possible in the games original state.

For a game boasting about its levels of customisability and replayability, maybe it should be a little more accepting about the game being played in different ways. Something to think about.[/QUOTE]

He gets it.

(Szakalot) #200

I’ve read the whole thread, and you have shown over and over that you simply do not have any idea what you’re talking about.
I’m not trying to get on your nerve, but give (dis)credit where (dis)credit’s due; in this case: admit your own ignorance on the subject. Why do you insist on stating you’re own preconceived ideas about a thing experience of which is limited to watching with BrinkTV is confusing.

I do not know whether you played PC FPS games ever, but you showed not to ever play a competitive video game, specifically a PC game.

All the ideas about 8v8 and no restrictions and ‘playing as the game as it is meant to be played’ is the exact same BS talk Vanilla ETQW ranked pubstars had of comp in ETQW.
They wanted 12v12, all vehicles, all artillery, spam spam spam, SPAM SPAM SPAM.

And ETQW had the same problem, it was double fullholds ALL the time.
Anyone recall Beta2/Demo times from Valley in ETQW?

Saying that downed fire/adrenaline/all the other broken BS is ‘easily countered’ is the exact same talk we (we - ‘the PC comp players’) heard in ETQW from people who claimed that 6 plasma mortars constantly spamming the MCP making it completely impossible to stop is ‘easily countered’ by ‘taking out the artillery deployables’ - which of course were conveniently stashed at the other end of the map, behind shields and automatic turrets, deployables that were replaceable every 30 seconds anyways.

I havent even ever played Brink, but this is such an easy situation to relate to, an exact analogy of the situation in ETQW, only this seems even worse (more things to fix).

So why do you continue dragging a subject you have NO EXPERIENCE in is really well…too far from my understanding.

Also:
Comp players are not some evil deviants that want every game to be plain and simple, with no room for innovation, we just want games that do not end in double-fullholds, which is basically 40min of non-result; because the GAME IS NOT READY FOR COMP.