Biggest flaws for the current maps

(Rex) #1

I want to highlight some of the biggest flaws for the current maps:

Whitechapel:

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Defenders got high ground, but unfortunately can’t use it. You can get shot from 2 directions, whereas the window position is the worst for the defenders. With the current weapon handling you can’t just kill the guy in the window and from the other side you get shot before you can even locate the exact enemy position, because it’s so far away. You are so exposed on top there.
The green place is the only position you can stand on safely. However just camping there is useless.

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The whole situation changed a bit due to the EV rushing through now, but I’ll just refer to pre-patch.
At this stage the defenders will reach a point where they get completely camped by the attackers.
Attackers have only to defend two little entrances (!) and additionally also got high ground. Even worse, high ground can look over both entrances. Once attackers camp the defenders at this stage, there is absolutely no come back. You also can’t rely on ‘special or sneaky tactics’ as there are only 2 options: Either entrance 1. or 2. Aim is also useless as the high ground will shoot you down before you can even see them.

Waterloo:

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It’s good that you opened up a new route for the spawn corridor, though the miserable choke point moved only a few meters back! I think there’s not much to say here, as we have only one (!) way to get out and can get shot from everywhere. A real pain in the ass on public, once defenders set up a good defense here. It’s just brainless dying then and no nades made it even harder.

London Bridge:

This is the worst stage for the defenders on this map. Probably the worst stage in the game. :mad:

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Defenders have a super long way to get to the barricade and what’s really bad is, that the fastest way leads through 1 (!) entrance. Even worse you can get shot from everywhere! High ground in your back, filled with attackers makes nightmares come true.
It’s so super easy for the attackers to defend this one exit and hold the high ground, there is no chance for a defender to come back once he died.

(attack) #2

first of all, nice that you give some feedback.
i think the most problems are a result of the obj spawn system.
whitechapel:
the first stage is already defenders heavy because of the big spam and the top position . the attackers are forced to drive the tank through and get spam from all sides.
the 2nd stage: yes its broken ,so i agree :slight_smile:
(full map is meatground)(but anti already said it should be an easy map in tf2 style).
waterloo:this is in SW not rly a problem because the way to get there is very long so if you break through once its all fine
LB:we all have open so many threads about it .
i and 1800 nothing saw the same point as a problem and showed some fixes ,(i think SD will work at it :wink: on their own way)
maybe delete the tank this time instead of the carry objs :P(sry for this joke :D)

(k1ruaa) #3

Really good and valid points. Totally agree

(Rex) #4

Lol, that’s why I’m here. :tongue:

Yep, it has also something to do with the spawn positions. Moving spawns could bring a change for some map flaws.

(Violator) #5

Spot on with the above, but LB you are assuming that attack can get past the first objective… Its very easy now for def to turtle up in the two rooms in the market either side of the EV, with the small exit from the bridge having plenty of cover via the pillars and the EV itself. The back way in is possible via the opposite building (other end of bridge via the van ramp) but then you have the def spawn to contend with as well. With a full server at least this has been a hold every time I’ve played on this obj. As a side note its less fun for snipers as the action is no longer in the street.

(Angrim) #6

I am not sure about your first complaint, since I feel like I can’t judge this part of Whitechapel yet. I need to see it with different team compositions and more balanced teams to make up my mind. Pretty much agree with everything else though.

[QUOTE=Rex;474414]
Waterloo:

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It’s good that you opened up a new route for the spawn corridor, though the miserable choke point moved only a few meters back! I think there’s not much to say here, as we have only one (!) way to get out and can get shot from everywhere. A real pain in the ass on public, once defenders set up a good defense here. It’s just brainless dying then and no nades made it even harder.[/QUOTE]

This is definitely the one that bugs me the most. It’s pretty obvious that Waterloo was at least inspired by W:ET’s Siwa Oasis and whenever I play Waterloo I just can’t stop comparing the two maps. Looking at the parts right after the attackers detonate the wall in both maps, I can’t help but notice just how much better Oasis handles this chokepoint. While this is still a dangerous area for the attackers to pass through and a good first line of defense for the defenders, Siwa Oasis makes sure this almost never turns into a brainless grindfest by providing considerably smaller high ground and angle advantages for the defenders and an additional route tied to an optional objective for the attackers.

Ever since I joined the Alpha and played Waterloo for the first time I have been thinking about preparing an in depth comparison between Siwa Oasis and Waterloo and why I personally think that Waterloo is the inferior version in several aspects. I don’t want to be rude or “that guy” and mean no disrespect to whoever designed this map, but I feel like this is the kind of feedback Extraction really needs right now. So maybe I will get to that in the next few days.

(Rex) #7

Waterloo = Siwa Oasis
London Bridge = Goldrush :wink:

(acQu) #8

The LB place, 2nd pic is spot on. I once made some obscure posts in the past about level of exposure, this is the exact area i always had in mind when talking about this. You can get shot from so many angles, it is not funny. When you go (from first pic of LB, the left entrance and don’t go up the stairs, but left, then you get to the street: this entrance is also an absolute nightmare for attacker. Walk out of it and you have an almost 360 degree level of exposure (2D), and can get shot from upper area as well, additionally cars, tiny windows from a far, and two doors nearby where enemies can stand. That is an absolute death route.

Well, then, i guess i don’t go there :confused: but stuff like this is extreme!

Also LB the 2nd pic again, when you walk out of the door as defender, it is a bit better, but still, its absolute Lotto. You just hope noone of the attackers is standing on the high ground and camping that door. :rolleyes: or somewhere in 180 degree fov.

(onYn) #9

Where can i put my sign? I just do it: onYn approved! ^^

(Kl3ppy) #10

Yesterday I played 2 rounds of LB, both time Defenders won and the first objective (get the EV going) wasnt finished. I dont think that this is caused by unbalanced teams, I believe the reason is the bad map design here.

Same for the last stage at Whitechapel. Couple of builds, it was a meatgrinder, now when you get the EV down the lift, attackers win because it’s nearly impossible to win this stage now.

Waterloo is overall a good map, but the point Rex posted is the one which annoys me most too. If a team gets a defence behind the breach, it’s impossible to get to the objective because you have to run thru a small way and you get killed like cows at the butcher …

(Violator) #11

Oasis (which WL is based on) worked because it had ze water pump as an alternate route (also the covy door at the side). Not to mention trick jumping over the wall. In WL there is just the breach and it is a mincing machine at the moment.

EDIT: in WL the def also have the (inaccessible except via the breach) high ground on both sides.

(fragon89) #12

about waterloo after gate part. there are many maps had it in ET [like supply, oasis, karsiah]. this spots are just to delay the attackers./
the spawn of the defenders is so far away u cant hold the the attacker for ever there.
as for the attackers in this sitiuations, is to rush together before spawn and gib as much as possable.

PS. something that not added in any “MAP Thread”. i think its cuz of the echo system all the objectives in any map in any part of the map is in middle, so defenders and attackers have to run for it. it shouldnt be like that [ maybe in some maps, just for veraity]. defenders have to spawn closer to the obj they need to defend with longer spawntime.

(potty200) #13

The point you make abut waterloo’s crossfire is a big one tbh. I have often seen an attackign team held there for ages not getting a single kill. A simple engeneer construct a ladder somewhere would help this stage a great deal.

(chrawr) #14

Rex pretty much sums up my thoughts on those maps with this post. Not with anything brought up here.

Also this.

(Rex) #15

Let’s compare how ET handled the wall choke point:

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Defenders have the main route straight forward obviously, but also a side route on the right side.
Additionally they also got 2 high grounds which opens up many directions for camping defenders to keep track of.
It’s very balanced here and with a faster spawn for the attackers, aggressive defenders have to fall back eventually.

  • the Waterpump tunnel (which an engi needed to construct first) of course! How could I forget? :tongue:

Siwa Oasis: 4 routes (+1 high ground on spawn)
Waterloo: 1 route

Rushing together is a good idea, nevertheless gibbing high ground players is not possible.

I’ve also seen holds of 5mins or longer on pub, which is terrible as you can’t just do anything against it. We definitely need an alternative second route there, a ladder or what ever.

(Angrim) #16

[QUOTE=Violator;474516]Oasis (which WL is based on) worked because it had ze water pump as an alternate route (also the covy door at the side). Not to mention trick jumping over the wall. In WL there is just the breach and it is a mincing machine at the moment.

EDIT: in WL the def also have the (inaccessible except via the breach) high ground on both sides.[/QUOTE]

Exactly. This is what I was trying to point out by comparing the wall part of both maps as well. Whoever was inspired by Oasis to create Waterloo probably should have noticed that moving access to the only alternative path behind the chokepoint, offering no replacement and giving the defenders an even better position to hold the breach will drastically shift the balance in favor of the defenders. Then again, it’s always easy to say that in hindsight and we don’t know in what way other changes to the map may have influenced this part.

[QUOTE=Rex;474452]Waterloo = Siwa Oasis
London Bridge = Goldrush :wink:[/QUOTE]

Oh, I know. As I said, that’s pretty obvious.

My point is that Waterloo feels like a flawed iteration of Oasis. It reuses some of the concepts used in Siwa Oasis, but fails to give their execution enough attention. It’s not only the implementation of the wall that leaves me with that feeling.

Let’s look at the differences in the execution of the water pump concept as another example. On Oasis water pumps can be build to drain the water from two tunnel systems, effectively opening up alternative paths to reach the objective. Completely draining a tunnel takes several minutes. However, you can dive through the water and reach the other end without dying roughly 15 seconds after the pump starts draining the tunnel. Doing so is very risky, because defenders can pick you off in the water pretty easily. Taken this risk can be worthwhile, though, since it can give you an opportunity to surprise the defenders or sneak past them. Additionally, destroying these pumps as a defender is dangerous and difficult, but can be a good way to delay the attackers, since it takes several minutes to drain the tunnel again.

Now, let’s take a look at the execution of this concept on Waterloo. Just like Oasis, there are two pumps that drain a hazardous element from tunnel systems to open up alternative paths. However, in Extraction the dangerous gas is drained within seconds. In fact, you can start running immediately after constructing a pump and will only take minimal damage from the gas.

Ignoring the placement of the pumps, there appears to be a lot more depth to their implementation on Siwa Oasis. Not only has the risk/reward interaction of diving or swimming through the remaining water been eliminated, it is also much less rewarding for defenders to destroy one of the pumps, since draining the tunnels again is not going to cost the attackers more than just a few seconds.

(Glottis-3D) #17

there is a door, that is near Defenders’ first spawn. if we make it hackable/C4-able then we get a second route (wall in defs’s spawn should be broken prbbly) to the meat-fest place.

(Volcano) #18

mentioned this a long time ago and it wasn’t going to happen because they didn’t see the reason for it and samurai suggested the other door near the van to the right of the wall

(Glottis-3D) #19

…they didnt see the reason for it…hmmmm…

lol :slight_smile:

(Volcano) #20

[QUOTE=krokodealer;474582]…they didnt see the reason for it…hmmmm…

lol :)[/QUOTE]

didnt take as long as I thought to find the reply from Draska
http://forums.warchest.com/showthread.php/36023-possible-changes-to-Victoria?p=447753&viewfull=1#post447753

and heres samurai’s thread
http://forums.warchest.com/showthread.php/35873-Waterloo-Terminus-Map-Layout-Suggestions-With-Diagrams-Poll-Version-19135