Balance patch note is here !


(Xenithos) #61

@neverplayseriou said:

@TitaniumRapture said:
@neverplayseriou

Yes but they should pay attention to all these elitist tryhards like you because they matter right?

I would rather have sd listen to actual experienced players rather than reddit and these forums, and how am I an elitist tryhard when I don’t even have this crap game installed…

How are you an “ACTUAL experienced player” if you 1) Don’t have the “crap game installed” and 2) by this reason means you can’t experience the patch changes first? Have you PLAYED Sparks recently? She’s not WEAKEST, but she’s not the strongest either (personally that was aura until today, now it’s probably Phoenix).


(Xenithos) #62

@ThunderZsolt said:
I love having the Grandeur back in my arsenal!
Also played one round with the Dreiss and the Stark AR as well, those are definately less accurate at mid-range, but fine compared to other weapons.

BR16 feels awful tho - it fired already slow during bursts, now it is almost as slow as the M4, has bigger recoil, and is restricted to bursts - for only 2 more damage and some accuracy boost, not worth using it IMO

Interesting you feel that way, I can’t enjoy the stark at all, yet for some reason, I can aim even more consistently with the br16. ROFL


(Xenithos) #63

@NexDroid said:
Ok so… Dreiss AR is a trash gun now. Can’t kill more than one player at mid range because of this stupid recoil. SMG 9 on the other hand is amazing now, I really love it. Javelin’s rocket change is needed yet I need to get used to it in guided mode. Grandeur is amazing now, doesn’t really need any more tweaks. Stark is way worse, yet still usefull. Shotguns are even more broken than ever, spread is too tight, so you can nearly snipe people and because of tight spread all your pellets land a hit so dps is even higher. FELIX’s reload speed is a joke right? It feels like vaseline got sticky fingers. Maybe make it one bullet only magazine with faster reload? That animation is a pure cancer. Moa is weird now, I don’t think that RPM was needed to be changed.

TL: DR;
SMG 9 good
rest worse

I would have to disagree with statements on shotguns, they feel much weaker, but more reliable in the damage per shot department. Honestly though? They still have random pellet overspread.


(Xenithos) #64

@Eox said:

@NexDroid said:

@neverplayseriou said:
Random Fragger nerf…
Rather than implementing merc limits and putting the health station on cd once its destroyed they also implement a random nerf…
Felix being able to instagib…

Fairly dissapointing merc adjustments, hoping the burst rifle, shotgun, sniper and dreiss changes will make an impact.
And where’s the hochfir, sparks and turtle nerf…

Sparks nerf? Are you kidding me? She is the weakest medic and you want her nerf? What the hell is wrong with people these days… Maybe reduce revived HP but on the other hand give her a proper weapon.

Can’t share your opinion about Sparks : she’s actually pretty damn insane at high level of play. She stacks an insane amount of perks.

  • Can one hit kill any mercs at 120 hp and below (full charge REVIVR shot deals 130 damage).
  • Safest revives in the game that can be pulled out at any range, allowing her to apply a lot of pressure on the enemy team with constant, safe revives.
  • Best self sustain among all medics thanks to numerous, instant heal small medpacks. Making her much more resistant to weapons relying on sustained fire. You pretty much have to one hit kill her most of the time, or at the very least surprise her. A good Sparks will most of the time flee as soon as she gets hit, making her very hard to get rid of.

She’s one of those mercs that become exponentially good the better the user is. She won’t be too much trouble if the Sparks player is a newbie, but if it’s a level 150 veteran Sparks main, you might end up having a very bad time.

This. It takes a highly skilled Sparks player to master Sparks. Which theoretically means she’s “balanced.”


(neverplayseriou) #65

Nowhere did I mention that sd should listen to me, I’m talking about the comp scene and if you you think Phoenix is the strongest medic then that says enough about your game knowledge.


(x3onn) #66

@neverplayseriou said:
Nowhere did I mention that sd should listen to me, I’m talking about the comp scene and if you you think Phoenix is the strongest medic then that says enough about your game knowledge.

What comp scene


(K1X455) #67

I honestly think this balance update needs more thinking through…

I reckon the falloff of players will hurt the game tremendously.


(Eox) #68

I don’t think some of you people understand how those (surprising) balance changes were pulled out, so I think I’ll have to try to explain how was SD’s mindset when they created all those changes. Hopefully this patch note will appear a little more logical to a few of you.

The veteran’s feedback is not the only thing that matters. Casual sentiment is an equally strong thing, as well as data analysis. This means that it’s pretty much important to balance the game both at a high level of play and a low level of play. If a weapon or a character is fine at low level but too strong at high level of play there’s obviously an issue, but there’s also an issue if a weapon/character is too good at low level of play and not good enough at high level of play. A weapon too good at low level of play will only frustrate low level players away : you don’t want that to ever happen if you want your playerbase to grow.

Following the feedback and data analysis gathered, the dev team concluded the following issues :

  • Shotguns were too much of a newbie wrecker and useless as soon as your teammates start to be rather competant, which is an issue that has been reported multiple times on those forums in the past as well, and a recurrently reported issue.
  • Burst rifles and Dreiss were still too good at high level of play. Most of the Dreiss and Burst players were able to finish a fight extremely quick without the enemy being able to fight back due to their very low TTK. This was a recurrent complaint as well.
  • SMG-9 was looked as the worst SMG by vets due to its lack of a niche and lower than average stats.
  • Bolt Action Snipers were seen as utterly frustrating to deal against by most players, as well as fairly low effort by most veterans. Especially MOA. A very common complaint in the Discord server.
  • Semi-Auto snipers didn’t felt right for the vets after the precedent changes, and still felt kind of too rewarding for high level players.

It is worth mentionning that the staff have to take into account a few restrictions. Those are the production requirements. Those production requirements can pretty much prevent some changes from happening. For exemple, shotguns can only have up to 12 pellets per shot due to UE3 limitations, preventing the dev team from adding more pellets to shotties as a balance change if it’s ever suggested. Production requirements can take a lot of shapes and prevent some balance changes from happening. They have to build around them.

Once the dev team is able to determine the issues, the real work starts. They will try to bring up balance changes that will tune the weapons in the desired ways. Those balance changes will be heavily playtested and monitored by the PTS, who also suggest balance changes as well. This is the testing and iteration phase. The last step before releasing actual design changes.

Most of the balance changes you can find on the OP have been suggested, playtested and validated by the PTS themselves, which contains for the most parts veterans of the game. Because the vets are overall much faster to react, aim much better and have a much better gamesense than casual gamers, some stuff can come out of PTS in a state that more average players can’t handle correctly. This is pretty much the reason why Javelin came out in such an overpowered state for most players. This is the exact proof that balancing for players who are new or aren’t that much good at the game is a strong necessity. This also shows that contrary to a sadly popular belief, SD does balance around the vets. Maybe a bit too much.

I also want to explain to all of you that complaining without mentioning any way to solve your issues, doesn’t help SD in any way. You don’t deliver good feedback through sarcastic complaints. If you truly love your game and want it to progress, you have to be constructive. It is fine to be against a change or find something OP or underpowered, but if you don’t suggest ways to solve the issue and only bother writing some sour, sarcastic or angry comments, your feedback has little to no purpose.

I hope this post explained thing better.


(Mr.Cuddlesworth) #69

@FalC_16 said:

@LifeupOmega said:
SMG-9 change does nothing to address its only issue: how @$!# its damage output is compared to the other SMGs.

Spread reduction doesn’t help considering it has ridiculously good spread already.

This. I like SMG 9 regardless…I truly hope they will give it more love in the future updates.

As for the revolvers I don’t understand why they would nerf dmg multiplier. They should have kept it as it was considering they nerfed BPM. They should reward those headshots. They are revolvers after all.

It’s annoying people believe all revolvers shoot so slow


(Nail) #70

never understood the fascination with revolvers, they’re not used in actual combat for several good reasons. Low ammo capacity, inaccurate (unless fired single action) and weak in comparison to same caliber in a automatic, also very slow especially in single action
they’re terrible combat guns


(Sorotia) #71

@Xenithos said:

@neverplayseriou said:

@TitaniumRapture said:
@neverplayseriou

Yes but they should pay attention to all these elitist tryhards like you because they matter right?

I would rather have sd listen to actual experienced players rather than reddit and these forums, and how am I an elitist tryhard when I don’t even have this crap game installed…

How are you an “ACTUAL experienced player” if you 1) Don’t have the “crap game installed” and 2) by this reason means you can’t experience the patch changes first? Have you PLAYED Sparks recently? She’s not WEAKEST, but she’s not the strongest either (personally that was aura until today, now it’s probably Phoenix).

Don’t you know…he lives in his own little world where he gains experience by reading about it!

And in his little world it’s unfair that Sparks and Javelin kill him, so they need to be nerfed to the ground!

Sadly I’m not joking about this.


(B_Montiel) #72

@Eox said:
I also want to explain to all of you that complaining without mentioning any way to solve your issues, doesn’t help SD in any way. You don’t deliver good feedback through sarcastic complaints. If you truly love your game and want it to progress, you have to be constructive. It is fine to be against a change or find something OP or underpowered, but if you don’t suggest ways to solve the issue and only bother writing some sour, sarcastic or angry comments, your feedback has little to no purpose.

I hope this post explained thing better.

I’ll play the devil’s advocate here :
The communication should not happen on topics you select. Over the almost 4 years I play DB, I’ve seen numerous times where people raised concerns for pretty justified reasons and never got an answer. They’re not helping themselves either. And this caused more people to actually quit playing this game than being sarcastic about it.


(GatoCommodore) #73

@Nail said:
never understood the fascination with revolvers, they’re not used in actual combat for several good reasons. Low ammo capacity, inaccurate (unless fired single action) and weak in comparison to same caliber in a automatic, also very slow especially in single action
they’re terrible combat guns

also the gas blast is dangerous


(aminuseternal) #74

Oh no not the Sparks balance debate. I have been away from this game for a year, yet here it still is.

First off she has the weakest healing, with the only benefit of it being instant. However, unless you have good aim with medpacks, or are playing ranked where you can just shoot people to get them back up with more health, then you end up having to chase people to heal them.

Secondly, unless you have unshakeable you pretty much instantly die from any explosives.

Not to mention that she doesn’t have a primary weapon, and only two secondaries. So that you really do need to stick to longer distances and get really good with the rev gun. Unless of course you are really good at jumpy Sparks and have chopper as well as good aim with a cricket bat.

The rev gun takes a lot of practice to learn how to aim well. I mean when you ADS when charging the gun shakes. Although Sparks armour is speed so you really need to be good at aiming from the hip.

All in all, I think she is fine. Sparks just takes a lot of time to get good with. Its tough to balance a character that can dominate when in the hands of an experienced player, but be difficult to pick up. Besides, after her release, she had been nerfed on pretty much every balance update.


(Sorotia) #75

@aminuseternal said:
Oh no not the Sparks balance debate. I have been away from this game for a year, yet here it still is.

First off she has the weakest healing, with the only benefit of it being instant. However, unless you have good aim with medpacks, or are playing ranked where you can just shoot people to get them back up with more health, then you end up having to chase people to heal them.

Secondly, unless you have unshakeable you pretty much instantly die from any explosives.

Not to mention that she doesn’t have a primary weapon, and only two secondaries. So that you really do need to stick to longer distances and get really good with the rev gun. Unless of course you are really good at jumpy Sparks and have chopper as well as good aim with a cricket bat.

The rev gun takes a lot of practice to learn how to aim well. I mean when you ADS when charging the gun shakes. Although Sparks armour is speed so you really need to be good at aiming from the hip.

All in all, I think she is fine. Sparks just takes a lot of time to get good with. Its tough to balance a character that can dominate when in the hands of an experienced player, but be difficult to pick up. Besides, after her release, she had been nerfed on pretty much every balance update.

Why you disagree with me? I was mocking him for wanting a Sparks nerf :stuck_out_tongue:


(Unrivaled) #76

@Nail said:

@Unrivaled said:

@neverplayseriou said:
No I’m here to laugh at all the people on the forums that have @$!# all worth a clue about db.

I don’t have the game installed either, I probably won’t install it again, but I think I’ll come here as long as the game still exists just to read this kind of threads lol

and yet you disagree with me about an update you haven’t played, maybe you’ve heard the saying “Don’t be a dick”

Do you really think I need to play the new update to know that what you said is wrong?

The BR16 will be a lot more lotto than it was before. There are no spray patterns in DB (except for the M4 I think but it barely has any recoil anyway), so any horizontal recoil added to a gun will make it more of a lotto gun. Vertical recoil, no matter how high it is, will always be manageable with some skill. That’s not the case for horizontal recoil, unless there’s a spray pattern.

So no, the BR16 won’t be less lotto than it was and won’t favour high skill. I really have no idea why it’s such a common misconception to think that the more recoil a gun has, the higher skill it requires, because it’s of course not the case. Knowing spray patterns is a skill, managing vertical recoil by pulling your mouse down while shooting and staying at head level is a skill, having to cope with your crosshair jumping from left to right and right to left is not a skill, as it just adds randomness to the gun, and doesn’t reward good aim.

I hope you don’t expect me to write an essay everytime I disagree with you, because with all the sh!t you write in here, and how little I plan on being involved on these forums, that’s not gonna work.


(Xenithos) #77

@neverplayseriou said:
Nowhere did I mention that sd should listen to me, I’m talking about the comp scene and if you you think Phoenix is the strongest medic then that says enough about your game knowledge.

What, do you feel Sawbonez is the strongest medic? Despite your calling for Hochfir nerfs several times and the fact that Phoenix owns that gun while Sawbonez does not? And Phoenix moves faster, has instant healing, and with the right cards can heal people 120 hp every 7 seconds? Which is on par with a Sawbonez pack (w/ extra supplies) but to all allies in his reach with again… INSTANT HEAL?

My game knowledge is just fine, and it was clearly an opinion when made since I would remove Aura from strongest medic at this point. Her healstation is no longer an unkillable beacon of explosions and firepower. At least come forward with your own opinion and why, rather than simply insulting people…


(K1X455) #78

@Eox said:

  • Burst rifles and Dreiss were still too good at high level of play. Most of the Dreiss and Burst players were able to finish a fight extremely quick without the enemy being able to fight back due to their very low TTK. This was a recurrent complaint as well.

… Because the vets are overall much faster to react, aim much better and have a much better gamesense than casual gamers, some stuff can come out of PTS in a state that more average players can’t handle correctly. This is pretty much the reason why Javelin came out in such an overpowered state for most players. This is the exact proof that balancing for players who are new or aren’t that much good at the game is a strong necessity. This also shows that contrary to a sadly popular belief, SD does balance around the vets. Maybe a bit too much.

I hope this post explained thing better.

The problem is, the way numerical data is interpreted. Having too much on one side can be interpreted several ways. You mentioned that when it comes to burst rifles and Dreiss, they’re too good at high level play and if brought to the more common pubs, it dominates a fight quickly due to their low TTK. One way to interpret that is skill level is plays an important part of the duel. Further, how many 1v1s with a burst rifle/Dreiss was evaluated to drive an interpretation in that direction? Of course you could also consider 2v1, 3v1 or more versus burst rifles/Dreiss and the interpretation can dramatically change given the variety of outcomes and if 1 player does come out on top, it still isn’t safe to claim that skill or the weapon performance was the key factor in the outcome of the conflict.

Further, how transparent was SD in getting game data? You get stats per game, but how does this all add up when you have over 600 servers running? Or over 1000 players actively playing in one go? A bit of smoke and mirrors there.

If the key point of balancing patches is to narrow the gap between top and low level players, there could be better ways than just nerf-nerf-nerf job.


(Xenithos) #79

@K1X455 said:

@Eox said:

  • Burst rifles and Dreiss were still too good at high level of play. Most of the Dreiss and Burst players were able to finish a fight extremely quick without the enemy being able to fight back due to their very low TTK. This was a recurrent complaint as well.

… Because the vets are overall much faster to react, aim much better and have a much better gamesense than casual gamers, some stuff can come out of PTS in a state that more average players can’t handle correctly. This is pretty much the reason why Javelin came out in such an overpowered state for most players. This is the exact proof that balancing for players who are new or aren’t that much good at the game is a strong necessity. This also shows that contrary to a sadly popular belief, SD does balance around the vets. Maybe a bit too much.

I hope this post explained thing better.

If the key point of balancing patches is to narrow the gap between top and low level players, there could be better ways than just nerf-nerf-nerf job.

I personally sincerely absolutely hope that is NOT the purpose/key point of balancing patches. I would say if anything, that it’s to rebalance the weapons and etc so that they are viable and balanced in as many scenarios as possible. If two absolute powerhouses in DB play against eachother, theoretically they should be able to kill eachother at any time with whatever gun has the higher dps. However, if a beast fights a sheep, that sheep should crash and burn, not get insta shotgun killed and cry. Personally it’s almost like shotgun rof should be increased.

The hope, though unobtainable, is that all weapons are balanced in all phases of a player’s growth. That all of them have learning curves, and when you master the weapon, you can be on par in similar skill settings.


(Nail) #80

@Unrivaled said:

@Nail said:

@Unrivaled said:

@neverplayseriou said:
No I’m here to laugh at all the people on the forums that have @$!# all worth a clue about db.

I don’t have the game installed either, I probably won’t install it again, but I think I’ll come here as long as the game still exists just to read this kind of threads lol

and yet you disagree with me about an update you haven’t played, maybe you’ve heard the saying “Don’t be a dick”

Do you really think I need to play the new update to know that what you said is wrong?

The BR16 will be a lot more lotto than it was before. There are no spray patterns in DB (except for the M4 I think but it barely has any recoil anyway), so any horizontal recoil added to a gun will make it more of a lotto gun. Vertical recoil, no matter how high it is, will always be manageable with some skill. That’s not the case for horizontal recoil, unless there’s a spray pattern.

So no, the BR16 won’t be less lotto than it was and won’t favour high skill. I really have no idea why it’s such a common misconception to think that the more recoil a gun has, the higher skill it requires, because it’s of course not the case. Knowing spray patterns is a skill, managing vertical recoil by pulling your mouse down while shooting and staying at head level is a skill, having to cope with your crosshair jumping from left to right and right to left is not a skill, as it just adds randomness to the gun, and doesn’t reward good aim.

I hope you don’t expect me to write an essay everytime I disagree with you, because with all the @$!# you write in here, and how little I plan on being involved on these forums, that’s not gonna work.

nope. you’re right, I was reading misinformation when I made the statement

(" for only 2 more damage and some accuracy boost") I should have checked