Back to the Basics


(INF3RN0) #1

#dontfearthenovel

Before reading any of this post I want to make it very clear what the overall point is. I think a lot of people will agree that we have been focusing on way too many topics lately, when we should first be making sure that all of the core mechanics get finalized before we become spread too thin too quickly. There are a lot of obscure things that get discussed in great detail however just about every one of these issues is entirely influenced by the most simple parts of the game. Instead of continuing to have layer upon layer of changes to try and make things work with the existing core mechanics, maybe we instead need to make the core mechanics less problematic to begin with.
I strongly feel that it is problems with the simplest parts of the game that are causing the numerous other problems we have been addressing as separate items when they are really directly connected. As it stands I don’t see any progress being achieved unless we abide by the rule of building things from the ground up and accurately identify the real source of problems before trying to correct them individually. The core mechanics all work cooperatively together, thus a change in one area is going to directly affect another. Any slight change in one of these areas will result in a ripple effect across the board, so that is why it is so essential that we put all our energy into perfecting them before trying to move forward.

Movement

Speed:

Sprinting speed seems to be wholly agreed upon as satisfactory. The base movement in strafe however is significantly slower. If the problem with fast movement is tracking difficulty, then we have a contradiction with unlimited sprint. The fast paced feeling is definitely there while sprinting, but not maintained in strafe. An increase in strafe speed is worth testing considering the noticable disparity between the sprint and strafe.

Acceleration:

What is the purpose of acceleration to begin with? It is simply not clear what acceleration does to benefit the game or make the experience more interesting.  Acceleration makes the movement feel clunky and also makes aiming while moving inconsistent and intrudes on player control. Unless a positive argument for acceleration can be explained, it is a negative feature at the core and thus impossible to respond to positively.

Gunplay

Creep spread:

All of the weapon functionalities are completely dependent on weapon spread. The theoretical stats of weapons become entirely inaccurate when spread is not a consistent variable in the equation. The base spread is inarguably low, however the creep spread is significantly higher. This results in initial kills being very fast, but consecutive kills becoming too unreliable. The first solution for this was to increase weapon clip size however this was not the source of the problem- it was the creep spread all along. 

The soldier class is only as powerful as it is because the ability to attain multi-kills is entirely based off of ammo capacity to compensate for unreliable spread. It isn’t that weapons can’t be different, however all the details cease to be significant if spread reliability forces ammo count to be the deciding factor after 2 seconds of shooting. This is the reason why weapons give more realistic definition than actual class specific roles currently. If this was the intention, then it is working well. If this is not the case, then it needs to be first changed at the source before we keep asking for small incremental tweaks across the board. We can’t begin to deal with class/weapon balance without solving this first.

Maps

Spawn Times:

Spawn times are a problem on every single objective on every single map. They more than likely differ, but it’s more the mechanics rather than the time values that are the problem. No spawn wave on defense prevents offense from capitalizing on well timed attacks to secure the objective more successfully. Individual spawns for defenders allows for a constant flow of obstruction to the offense as well as discouraging any form of regrouping. Lack of visible spawn timers on the HUD makes timing and awareness non-factors. Spawn waves are the means of preventing a TDM atmosphere and promoting one of strategical teamwork.

It has been constantly suggested that spawn times need to be drastically increased, but this is undesirable for larger audiences. What we want to avoid: long spawns and long distances between spawns and objectives. So how can we satisfy these requirements without having such a defensive bias in ability to return to the objective after death? I can think of one method that has already been proven to work from ETQW, defensive forward spawns. Having a defensive forward spawn capture point does a few great things. Firstly it creates another point of significant interest to the defenders as it allows them to spawn much closer to the objective. Secondly it grants offense the ability to force the defense back to the main objective, cap the defensive forward spawn, and then proceed to attack the main objective. With the forward spawn captures, the offense would now have enough time to secure the objective with a successful attack, and the spawn timers would not need to be altered. Defense would indeed have to travel further after the forward was capped, however in most cases the objective would be fairly lost at this point. The opportunity to risk a re-take would still be viable, however defenders might consider it a better choice to set up at the next objective instead.

Example of a possible layout for this;


Map Layout:

NOTE: If we can’t do anything to the current maps, at least take this into mind for future maps.

The map layouts are hugely responsible for a lot of the biggest problems we are experiencing. Simply adding spawn waves with the current map layouts will more than likely result in defense becoming inherently weakened. Defense only has a single choke point zone in very close proximity to the objective itself for most objectives, thus discouraging motivation to even attempt a forward defense in most cases because there’s no good opportunity for it. Having at least two forward defensive zones in addition to the objective area itself is vital to increasing the success and strategical capabilities of the defensive team. If this isn’t available, the objective will get taken as soon as the first wave of defenders die because they were forced to initially defend directly at the objective itself. The lack of consecutive defensive zones also adds to a really repetitive experience on defense as your always stuck playing in the same area.

The addition of a forward spawn for offense will further motivate defense to become less confined as well. Forward spawns usually act as a precursor to the main objective itself, which allows for more dynamic game play and also spreads action across all areas of a map. Forward spawns aren’t required to reach the main objective, however they are very helpful. Forward spawns also become more necessary when the defense has the opportunity for a forward defensive setup, thus allowing the offense to be rewarded for breaking through the first zone and maintaining momentum. These would also motivate defenders to attempt to de-cap these points too if able, again stimulating more dynamic and complete use of the maps



Another addition that would greatly benefit the map dynamics are more significant side-objectives, which could also be interactive over the course of an entire objective (ex a barricade that can be destroyed and rebuilt).

Additionally the objects within the maps such as cars, trashcans, couches, trashbags, etc shouldn’t over crowd an area, and should have purpose if placed in the path of a player (ex. cover/trickjumps). Immersion is appreciated, however these things can interfere with the player experience in a negative way a lot of times, and greatly reduce mobile space.

Objective Specific:

Doc run (fuel cell) objectives are currently faulty because of how they are implemented on the maps. All of the changes that have been made regarding this type of objective is to try and force them to work with the maps, where really it should be the objectives implementation on the maps changing instead.

Pickup-time; this is only here because of White Chapel. The objectives are way too close to the transmit point, which allowed lemming tactics to work. In response we had more and more objectives added, and then the pickup time to top it off. This filled the time sure, however the objective itself is lackluster and chaotic. A transmit time doesn’t even serve a purpose on WC either, as the offense has no means of capitalizing on the mechanic. You can easily see the problem here with all of the additional doc run objectives because of the inconsistent layouts. I can only suggest that these return to how they worked previously.

These are some examples of how they were done in ETQW as one example, and you wouldn’t even need the pickup time like this either. Doc runs are some of the most enjoyable objective types we have had, but the way they are being done in DB isn’t doing them justice.



As far as escort missions go, all of the above map related issues apply. Escorting the EV is essentially FFA between barricades. This is more due to map design rather than the escort objective itself. Again this relates to the lack of forward choke points in a lot of cases. White Chapel I will admit has more opportunity for a forward defense strategy and you can usually disable the EV at specific locations, however it’s not consistent. I would account that to the linear layout there.


(Dragonji) #2

Wow Inferno, you’re doing a great work here. I’m wondering why didn’t you apply for a job at SD :slight_smile:


(INF3RN0) #3

A lot of this came from an hour or so long conversation with Valdez and crew in mumble tonight and then some inspiration from MrEd’s post. I did my best to funnel most of the content into a clear written format. I’m currently studying at Toka’s school of forum posting arts haha.


(tokamak) #4

I like this. I have some points myself but I need more playtime before I can comment on this. All I’d like to say is that getting this right is still only the canvas for a game that can be so much more.


(Kendle) #5

For me ET:QW is not back to basics, and although I’m biased (as in didn’t really play it so don’t know enough to really have an opinion) I wouldn’t use any mechanic from a not very successful (in the scheme of things) vehicle based game as a platform for building a new infantry based game. For me back to basics is RTCW, that’s the point at which objective based infantry only gameplay worked and everything that’s come after, including ET:QW, has muddied the waters.

However I agree with most points. The only one I don’t see the argument for is forward defense spawn points. For map layout, location of spawn points and travel time to objectives I can only refer back to this thread :-

http://forums.warchest.com/showthread.php/7378-ET-competition-maps-guidelines

Implement wave respawn first.
.
.

Then talk about spawn times.

.
.

Then talk about spawn locations.


(INF3RN0) #6

Kendle… the only ETQW specific thing there is defensive forwards lol. That’s just my personal suggestion to being able to have short spawns without all the problems they involve on some objectives. If you got the chance to play ETQW infantry only map Volcano, you might find it more appealing :wink:.


(Kendle) #7

Fair enough, but for me forward defense spawn doesn’t make sense, if they can defend from “rear” spawn then having a forward makes it too easy to defend, if they can’t then not having possession of the forward spawn makes it a walkover for attack.

The answer to too long defense spawns could be to reduce attacking team spawn, the key factor is the difference in spawn times (in relation to travel distance to objective) not the length of spawn times per se.


(tokamak) #8

ETQW was polished for it’s time but there’s all kinds of bells and whistles that are expected in next-gen so after half a decade it starts to show through.

However, ETQW was FUN. It’s incredibly impressive how the combat mechanics remained relevant on a macro scale and micro scale, indoors, outdoors, wide and dense geometry, add vehicles to the mix and it STILL worked. It’s amazing how resilient that game was.


(INF3RN0) #9

Well all I can say is that these worked in ETQW infantry only modes and even in competition; in fact it added a lot of interesting strategy. It’s just a potential solution, but it’s good to suggest more options that could work.


(tokamak) #10

Multiple spawn locations to chose from and capture would be a start. Typical ET signature feature.


(warbie) #11

Good thread, man. I’m all for going back to basics. In addition to what’s already been mentioned (particularly less spread and looking into spawn waves) I think teamplay would benefit greatly from maps that encourage teams to clash head-on at choke points. A fair amount has been mentioned about the current lack of synergy between classes - health regen doing the medic’s job, ammo crates doing the same for the field ops etc etc - but the fact that teams are rarely together in the same place is as much of a problem.


(Maca) #12

Thank you for this thread INF3RN0

I agree with all of your points, and I do think that these are the CORE mechanics that need to be changed. When the core fits we can start go crazy with features.

For example, in the past people have said things like “take away the creep” then it was reduced, and people said that “Thanks, it’s better!”, and then the next day they go to a thread and say “take away the creep” again. Does this say that we are idiots who can’t notice change, or does this say that the core idea is what we want to change, we are not asking it to be tweaked, we are asking the core to change. I’m not blaming SD, they should NOT do instantly what we ask them to, but then it is only expected that we will say the same things over and over and over again, because the tweaks do not fix the problem, or they will eventually but it’ll take many patches.
We realize that the game has changed, it isn’t the same as it was 3 weeks ago, but he core IS the same as it was 3 weeks ago. And we keep pointing that out, because the problems stem from the core.

I never was able to put it in words, but the first couple days I played this game, I had this feeling that the classes felt just slapped on. It felt like the game was saying “hey you remember these classes you enjoyed, they may not work well together here but they are here for you!”.
I felt like the game had all these modern shooter elements like health regen, but then there were the classes from old games, almost perfectly unchanged. You can’t do that, you can’t take the classes of old games and then put them to a game with modern mechanics. If you want to let people stay alive alone because you are afraid that new people don’t like the dieing, fine, give everyone health regen or ways to heal themselves, but take away the medic class then! I’m not even kidding. Change it into a reviver for example.
If you want that people get ammo from external sources, fine, do that, but then remove the ammo packs from field-ops and give him something else.
It needs to be simple, it’s either you get health from yourself, or it’s you get health from your medic. If it’s you get health from yourself and your medic it just muddles things and makes the classes less defined.
Every time a person gets wounded he starts calculating in his head what should he do, should he hide or find a medic. If the answer was clear cut, people would have much better understanding of the game.

There is this disparity between the classes and the mechanics, and frankly, one of them needs to be changed. We didn’t like necessarily the CLASSES of the old games, we liked how they worked together. So I for one do not care if the nature of the classes is different from the old games, but they need to work together.


(tokamak) #13

Wouldn’t forcing teams on choke points be just as restrictive as having class roles pushed down player’s throats? I’m all for doing away with regen, and changing the roles of ammo crates, but then to make maps more linear seems to conflict with that.


(INF3RN0) #14

I just didn’t want to delve into classes here because a lot of this stuff would completely change how they played. As for having a map with more realistic opportunities for defensive strategies, that’s not exactly making them more linear than they already are. Camden for example is an enjoyable map because it has a lot of open space. It still however only really has about one defensive zone per objective, which doesn’t give you a whole lot of varied strategy or game play.


(tokamak) #15

Well I want to discuss classes so there.

That’s exactly how I feel about this. All the while this is such an amazing opportunity to make classes even more intricate than they once were.

Take the field ops. What’s his actual role? Artillery and Ammo? What do these two skills have to with each other? What’s their link? The only link I can see is logistics and direction. You use artillery and airstrikes to deny space and you use ammo to keep your team reinforced.

That way the field ops isn’t just an ammo caddy with a cool laser painter, he’s the logistics man.

Now let’s see how we can expand on the logistics role in the game. What else can be done to make the field ops the dude that has to make sure everything remains coordinated and working?

The most obvious feature would be forward spawns. Capturing forward spawns should be field ops duty.

Now let’s look at his ammo role. The ammo crates encroach on his job but they don’t have to. How about we make ammo crates locked in cases. Then the field ops can work such a case and have the ammo crate dispense ammo and health to team-mates for a short period of time (or until a covert ops sabotages it? Just musing).

Then the ammo from fallen players. Also a problem. I’m fine with seeing it removed completely but you can also make it a field-ops only ability. Collecting weapons and ammo from players could make him recharge his ammo packs faster. Another way would be to have him add a grenade to each ammo pack for every x amount of weapons he scavenges.

That way you got a class that isn’t occupied with combat but still has to put himself in harms way and has to put in a lot of effort that eventually will pay off by having a well-supplied team.

What’s most important about these suggestions is that they remove this hard-limit on the class abilities. If you let a player put effort in then he should be able to increase his base capacity.


(k0k0nat) #16

TL;DR … no really: very nice work. Id like to see more spawnoptions as well!

“The most obvious feature would be forward spawns.”

yep.


(warbie) #17

If the defending team can’t set up shop somewhere to hold the line and put up a decent defence we end up with tdm (which is largely what we have in DB at the moment). For that we need choke points. I don’t see ow it can work any other way.


(tokamak) #18

W:ET really didn’t have much of an issue with that though. You were fighting over areas rather than points.


(warbie) #19

We might be getting bogged down in semantics then. Choke points, areas, I don’t mind. As long as a defensive line can be set up without spreading the defending team too thin or forcing them to split up into tiny groups. RTCW and W:ET were both at their best when the attacking and defending teams we together and clashing head-on. There’s very little of this in DB.


(tokamak) #20

Okay then we agree. I think Camden shows us perfectly how an open structure can still give you a lot of control over your defence points.