Automatic Shuffle

[diehardlurch]

I feel as I play more and more games we are starting to get some games are offset by some players. My meaning is that it often becomes very one sided in matches. Now when a shuffle is called and everyone votes yes or no that is fine but some games when they just keep pushing you further back and into spawn it gets very boring very quickly. What I propose is that if a vote to shuffle is called after three attempts the system should implement an automatic shuffle so the teams do shuffle. Please let me know your thoughts

[STARRYSOCK]

DB should definitely have some sort of auto-shuffle, or even just an auto-forfeit mechanic if things get too bad.
But having it after 3 failed shuffles just opens it up to abuse from trolls.

Something based on XP divide might be better and easier to implement, since balanced teams tend to have similar scores. For stopwatch, might as well just make it so the teams automatically if the attackers can’t finish an objective in a certain amount of time, sorta like in objective mode

[teflonlove]

If a Stopwatch match is so unbalanced that there is no way to salvage it, I just change to another server. Maybe some day we get a match making that actually works and the need for the server browser will be gone. But I won’t hold my breath.

[GatoCommodore]

lol no

i work hard to win and then some jerk thinks its okay to throw my hardwork into the gutter to salvage their feels?

if at all im in for removal of shuffle vote because it is abused most of the times and when it is needed nobody would shuffle.

git gud man, other people are able to do that because either you or your team is crap.

[Kirays]

I’m not a huge fan of automatic shuffles to be honest, feel like that would become quite tedious for the better players constantly being switched from one team to the other. I’d rather see the following proposal happen, should hopefully improve the balance so many players are concerned about.

Shuffling Teams in Server Browser Matches

[geefunkster]

The ability to overrule voting and force a shuffle would be abused, no doubt. Shuffling is, sadly, dependent on players choosing to do what is best for the game rather than themselves selfishly. Without saying anything about DB’s player base, it’s not a choice that can be relied upon.

Isn’t shuffling really a bandaid anyway, when the real issue is matchmaking and team balance? I’m not exactly knowledgeable on exactly how DBs matchmaking works and differs between game modes but would be interested to know:

*Is there currently any balancing at all done in server browser? Could there be, given lots of players carry over matches?

*How complex is the matchmaking system? What variables does it include? Game rank? kd?
Spm? XP broken down by category eg. combat, support etc? Game hours? Match history?

*If it does factor in match history, does it also factor in the rank/exp/kd/spm of competitors in those matches and whether those players were stacked in a squad?

Anyway, tl:dr is that while shuffling is imperfect, id doesn’t need to be fixed so much as the need for it reduced.

[teflonlove]

I regularly switch to the losing team to make things less boring. If the game could propose pairs of players to shuffle in the background and pop up a small dialog asking me if I want to be shuffled I’d be fine with that. The game could also make this more attractive by adding a little XP or credit bonus in case you agree to be shuffled to the losing team.

[TR_Kama]

people vote no, for shuffles for 2 reasons

1. they want to win at any cost, so if you have 3 high levels on your team carrying you and the team is winning, they dont want to shuffle, shuffle can at times make things worse,

2. people seem to forget that even if you shuffle you still keep your game stats KD & score so what are you really losing? … NOTHING

Watch Dazz’s video So many shuffle votes xD https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=StZjF7LlL94&t=1s

[kopyright]

If I had been in that match I would remember it much more fondly than yesterday’s unbalanced SW matches.

[doxjq]

As long as it isn’t in the last 2 minutes of the second half of a stopwatch game. Sick of that crap.

[TR_Kama]

honestly voting for shuffle should only be available for the first half, and maybe for the first 5mins of 2nd half, or disable it for the last 5mins of 2nd half, its so annoying to be in a SW mid way thru 2nd half and ppl call for shuffle, seriously no point just ride it out

[Deathi]

Kama, you forgot the third reason… People simply stopped caring…

It’s probably been over two years since I’ve begged for some automatic shuffle on SW-servers in the forum, and got told “CMM will fix balance”.

CMM nearly everytime either put me, I’d say max mid-skilled-player, in a team with some very very unskilled players, watching walls, not pressing E or Q, to carry them, or put me on a very badly-connected server. If not this, then I got in a better team and we stomped the others. So either a badly connected server or a stomp either way.
And now the devs found out, that there is a “bug” and one good player can’t really carry a whole team of beginners to a balanced match against average players? Ah, nice, logical thinking and stuff going on, finally.
So let’s hope they also start using values like playtime overall, playtime/map, playtime/merc and availible classes in the team, and not simply your win/loss-ratio or your kd in the last 10 maps, because it’s probably no simple thing.

So, whatever. I may have unbalanced matches in both, but at least I’m able to choose a good-connected server in the ServerBrowser-servers, so I play on them most of the time.
And really, you could do a restart right after mapstart most of the times, because a handful of people with potato-pcs, or calculators?, couldn’t play from the start of the map.
Or you could do a shuffle every five to ten minutes, because you get some real lvl 1-10s, who … yes… stare at walls, not dropping ammo, or healthstations, but still found out how to play SW, instead of CMM.
But hey, at least for them, probably CMM would work, somehow, and still they magically chose the most hard-hitting-servers for them.
… Uh wait, they didn’t, there is simply no big red button for them to start a CMM-match, and they are left to decide for themselves, where to play, without having a clue about this game. I guess some logical thinking has to happen here, some time, some time.

New to game -> Tutorial (give XP) -> (level 2) Assault Course (give xp) -> (level 3) CMM -> (level 5?) Ranked -> (level 10) Server Browser

Levels probably ok, probably not. I guess the flow could be ok, right? But it will probably take tons of hours to implement it in the database, because DATABASE.
At least it seems complicated, on of those ever-occuring perception-thingies probably.

But, back to me, as I said, I simply stopped caring. Either care about restart and shuffle and then shuffle and restart, or simply play and tell my brain to mute the crying about balance. And the way this voting-situation has escalated from easily getting the votes to shuffle when it’s really bad into not shuffling at all anymore, tells me I am not alone.
Because even when shuffling, a balance will probably happen in 1 of 20? times because it probably uses the same useless algorithm they are using for their CMM-matched, the not working one, you know.
So probably they should rename “shuffle-vote” into “press yes to disturb your game and still let noobs beeing bashed”? I’d guess that’s an easy database-thing, renaming a vote.

[OCB-Wildcard]

@Deathi said:
Kama, you forgot the third reason… People simply stopped caring…

It’s probably been over two years since I’ve begged for some automatic shuffle on SW-servers in the forum, and got told “CMM will fix balance”.

CMM nearly everytime either put me, I’d say max mid-skilled-player, in a team with some very very unskilled players, watching walls, not pressing E or Q, to carry them, or put me on a very badly-connected server. If not this, then I got in a better team and we stomped the others. So either a badly connected server or a stomp either way.
And now the devs found out, that there is a “bug” and one good player can’t really carry a whole team of beginners to a balanced match against average players? Ah, nice, logical thinking and stuff going on, finally.
So let’s hope they also start using values like playtime overall, playtime/map, playtime/merc and availible classes in the team, and not simply your win/loss-ratio or your kd in the last 10 maps, because it’s probably no simple thing.

So, whatever. I may have unbalanced matches in both, but at least I’m able to choose a good-connected server in the ServerBrowser-servers, so I play on them most of the time.
And really, you could do a restart right after mapstart most of the times, because a handful of people with potato-pcs, or calculators?, couldn’t play from the start of the map.
Or you could do a shuffle every five to ten minutes, because you get some real lvl 1-10s, who … yes… stare at walls, not dropping ammo, or healthstations, but still found out how to play SW, instead of CMM.
But hey, at least for them, probably CMM would work, somehow, and still they magically chose the most hard-hitting-servers for them.
… Uh wait, they didn’t, there is simply no big red button for them to start a CMM-match, and they are left to decide for themselves, where to play, without having a clue about this game. I guess some logical thinking has to happen here, some time, some time.

New to game -> Tutorial (give XP) -> (level 2) Assault Course (give xp) -> (level 3) CMM -> (level 5?) Ranked -> (level 10) Server Browser

Levels probably ok, probably not. I guess the flow could be ok, right? But it will probably take tons of hours to implement it in the database, because DATABASE.
At least it seems complicated, on of those ever-occuring perception-thingies probably.

But, back to me, as I said, I simply stopped caring. Either care about restart and shuffle and then shuffle and restart, or simply play and tell my brain to mute the crying about balance. And the way this voting-situation has escalated from easily getting the votes to shuffle when it’s really bad into not shuffling at all anymore, tells me I am not alone.
Because even when shuffling, a balance will probably happen in 1 of 20? times because it probably uses the same useless algorithm they are using for their CMM-matched, the not working one, you know.
So probably they should rename “shuffle-vote” into “press yes to disturb your game and still let noobs beeing bashed”? I’d guess that’s an easy database-thing, renaming a vote.

That is actually correct, and it’s why I usually ignore shuffle votes; unless the balance is truly abysmal, in which case I vote yes. It uses the same algorithm as CMM, where it is based off of a hidden ELO value based on your last 10 matches; this system is also used in the post-match shuffle that occurs in the lobby. It should be noted that the system does work through the post-match shuffles, if people actually stay on the server for long enough (i.e. consecutive games on the same server); though this rarely happens as most will move on to a different server long beforehand.

Let’s be honest here, this is not a new problem and it isn’t exclusive to DB either; expecting balance in a system where drop-in/drop-out is the modus operandi is essentially the same as expecting a hen to lay hard-boiled eggs (the statistical chances are so extremely low as to be considered impossible or unlikely to occur). This is pretty much why you’ll rarely find a balanced pub game; because the whole concept, when put within the current system, might as well be a meme (e.g. “There is no such thing as balance”, “Git Gud”, etc.). It could be made more effective, sure, but even then there is no magical fix for this in such a chaotic setting; so moments of imbalance will always occur and that is not going to just disappear. Improvements can definately be made, however, and hopefully they do give serious attention to it prior to 1.0.

[stayfreshshoe]

Forcing something to happen is something we’d rather not do as it takes the power away from the players. Doing something after it has failed or been called three times allows abuse to happen.

As @Kirays pointed out, we called this vote not too long ago asking for your opinion on shuffles in Server Browser. We will be changing things in game as a result and now it’s just a matter of time until it makes it’s way in.

We’ll review again once this update is implemented.

[OCB-Wildcard]

@stayfreshshoe said:
Forcing something to happen is something we’d rather not do as it takes the power away from the players. Doing something after it has failed or been called three times allows abuse to happen.

As @Kirays pointed out, we called this vote not too long ago asking for your opinion on shuffles in Server Browser. We will be changing things in game as a result and now it’s just a matter of time until it makes it’s way in.

We’ll review again once this update is implemented.

@stayfreshshoe Glad to hear you’re keeping an eye out for these discussions as they’ve been popping up regularly, as of late. I personally hope it works out man, but I expect it to be a long bumpy road at the end of the day; however, as long as you guys keep on top of it, I doubt anyone will have much complaint on the matter if it remains an area of focus for you guys.

[B_Montiel]

@stayfreshshoe said:
Forcing something to happen is something we’d rather not do as it takes the power away from the players. Doing something after it has failed or been called three times allows abuse to happen.

As @Kirays pointed out, we called this vote not too long ago asking for your opinion on shuffles in Server Browser. We will be changing things in game as a result and now it’s just a matter of time until it makes it’s way in.

We’ll review again once this update is implemented.

Pre match shuffle and rewards for staying on a same server. Finally something to eat.

[ThePigVomit]

Sometimes you stomp, sometimes you get stomped. In between there are ggs.

[ClemClem7]

@teflonlove said:
I regularly switch to the losing team to make things less boring. If the game could propose pairs of players to shuffle in the background and pop up a small dialog asking me if I want to be shuffled I’d be fine with that. The game could also make this more attractive by adding a little XP or credit bonus in case you agree to be shuffled to the losing team.

I really agree with you on this. If you hadn’t post it I would have suggested it.
It lets people who really weight in a game try to balance it if they want without forcing them.
And if someone refuse, the algorithm find the next better couple to switch and ask them until balance is found and if it can brought a better balance. Then it stop when no more balance can be found.
Maybe add an option to not be called for the switch if you don’t want to in your matches. But default option would be to be a balance’s volunteer.

[Begin2018]

That’s funny how most issues are in reality the same issue, then fixed by the same solution : Min/Max level servers…

[Theel]

I have 4 different experiences with the shuffle teams by skill system.

1. The teams don’t actually shuffle by skill, it just swaps the players so the “better” team is on the losing side. Pretty much forcing them to beat their own time, which usually results in a loss for them. This is extremely rage inducing as usually the server will go super toxic after this happens. The server will be empty within minutes (unless replacement fill it quickly enough, which seems to be getting more rare these days).

2. The teams barely change, just a few players get split that want to be on the same side. This will often lead to retarded stuff like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=StZjF7LlL94 (imagine being a new player and joining this server as your first DB experience).

Also usually a skilled player that ends up on a team he doesn’t want to be on will go limp and hide until someone on his team rages and his friend can swap. I’ll admit I do this all the time as I think the shuffle teams thing is the single worst thing about DB right now.

3. The **** over of the best player. Countless games I’ve seen a last minute shuffle and all it does is force the winning team’s best player over to losing team. This has 2 outcomes, the player raging or going limp. It has absolutely no change to the outcome of the match and all it does is piss off the best player of the game.

4. My friends and I all manage to get on the same team and a shuffle is forced on us, we have 2 on one team and 1 on the other after the shuffle. All we do is wait until there is room for the loner to switch at which point the teams are basically unfair again as we are all on the same team. Effectively making the shuffle completely useless. The friend team stack will usually cause rage among the rest of the players and another shuffle will be attempted. This will usually fail, but sometimes if it passes the situation ends up like #2 above. Or one of us going limp or even trolling the team. This might lead to a kick of the lone player trolling his team, this is when war is declared and the real toxicity starts.

I am openly telling you of our toxic actions because honestly I’m not proud of them. I don’t find myself to be this type of player in most games.

If you don’t want the community or us players to be so toxic, then I suggest you remove the most toxic inducing part of server browser play. The shuffle teams by skill vote.

No game has fair teams with server browser style match-ups. If you think that exists, you are in denial. Hell in CS:GO, I alone would pretty much make teams always unfair, this is a bit harder to do in DB. If you want to get the community to be supportive, desire fairness, and not as toxic, then you have to reward good behavior. That is the bottom line. Having systems which piss off players (veterans or bad players) or create situations where players don’t even want to try, you are doing the community a disservice and causing the toxicity.

If it is still your mission to make it so new players don’t end up on a team that is getting spawn camped and under constant rage. I’d suggest finding a way to get the best players to WANT to balance the match, even betray his own friends to get the “reward” for taking such a noble action and playing on that team. Or just end it as quickly as possible, surrender vote?