Attn Mod Teams: what do you need? suggestions thread.

(jaybird) #81

Agreed.

(CH4NDL3R) #82

We’re not talking about time here. I mean, if they can do it, well it’s fine; but if not, the community will: so no big deal here.

Ehr… What about throwing the .map and .world files into SVN and reload just the whole map? I know it’s nice if you can see your map growing, but if you’re reluctant to reload the whole map completely than you are using it somewhat wrong.
Besides: the files written by the map editor can change each save, causing a complete resync of the file.
Or even better: make sure you can work without syncing the whole time. That’s how it was done in W:ET, I believe Ifurita pulled it off.

That’s not the point. We’re talking about sharing a map across many level designers/builders/scripters across the globe. That’s what a regular mod team is nowadays, heh :slight_smile:
Being able to quickly check in or check out a file onto SVN helps a lot workflow wise.
With ET:QW, we’re talking about half a gig of texture data. For each map. So constraining the check in/out to special parts such as geometry only/terrain only/scripts only should help since those parts are lightweight and must be updated very often.
btw, Serious Sam editor and Cod2 one have already a Perforce plugin alowing to check out a map without quitting the editor.

A GUI editor or even a preview could be nice.
However, while all newcomers are welcome, WYSIWIG editors just make them dependent of those tools without knowing how to do without.

God, if you were right, we would still build maps with notepad…

Wouldn’t it be better to get some intermediate users into mapping/modding, hoping that they help the new generation?

Past proved it doesn’t work that way.
Intermediate/advanced users are too busy working on their stuff, to care about newbs.

(kamikazee) #83

I still script and define objectives using notepad. (Or Textpad, for that matter)

As for the maps, mapping using notepad is a m00t point. Note that I don’t take GTKRadiant for a WYSIWYG program, a lot of things affect the result during compile times. So there has been a map editor for ages. :roll:

But point taken, you are just asking for things you could use. :slight_smile:
Whilst the devs cannot give in to all wishes in this thread, I’m sure it can still be food for people looking for an interesting coding project.

(zeh) #84

Dude, D3 already has a WYSIWYG GUI editor. If somebody has a problem with that, you’d better point the issues on it instead.

I agree that editing on a text editor is the best choice though. I found the best workflow to be having the game on a window, and the gui opened on a text editor, in another window; editing the file and reloading on the game via reloadguis (alt-tabbing between both) worked wonders. It helps you test it on the environment itself (ie, you can’t have a visual editor react accordingly to the game when you’re build hud elements, or an ingame menu) and it’s very efficient.

Having a duplicate editor looks all fine and dandy, but in the end it’s just redundant. It’s very similar to what you expect from, say, HTML editing: you can have a WYSIWYG editor that looks extra nice, but when you’re used to it, it’s much faster to do it elsewhere and reload on a real browser, because you’re quite limited to what you can do visually only.

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In the end, you want tools/features for beginners only, or for modders? You want obscure features that take a long time to be added to some tool, or you want help from the developers from knowing where to step?

I think the idea of this thread was for SD to see where they could help the community by providing guidance and easier access to documentation and knowledge. I believe that, today, the bottleneck in modding is not having ‘beginners’ jump in, but rather in finding the solutions to some obscure issues, and how to do something that nobody knows about. Quite frankly, I believe most of the suggestions on this thread are from people who are failing to look at the issue as a whole. There’s a lot of vanity suggestions from people who only look at their very own little issues and desires, dream about something that ‘look’ nice without giving it a lot of thought, and are failing to see the big picture.

Adding a bunch of little features to a tool won’t help modding - don’t you think that, as a developer, SD would have already done that if they felt the need and had the time? Do you expect them to tailor the tools with stuff like SVN support for a bunch of people who will pay $50 for it? Flooding a thread with small very specific feature requests won’t do any good. This is not some enterprise-level commercial software we’re talking about, this is a game where modding support is attached, and a minority of their player base will benefit from it. Stop thinking otherwise.

The tools they’ll offer are the same tools they use to make the game (sans commercial software like 3d editors), so why do some people think they’re special and they need better tools than the developers themselves?

I think you all must take a step back and look at the possibilities that are not only within reach (meta stuff like a wiki, a helping forum, contests, mod team guidance, whatever), but that would benefit the community as a whole, instead of being picky about the specific features you want the tools (that you haven’t even used yet) to have. Really.

In my humble opinion. Of course I may be as out of touch as I claim others to be, so feel free to think otherwise.

(iwound) #85

a little reminder dude :nag:

(3j) #86

I would love some kind of exception handling. An error with a call stack when testing with players halway across the world can make bug fixing infinitely easier.

(Sebultura) #87

Something I haven’t saw here: a patch without the CD-check, a certain time after the game was launched. I mean, modding is great on the engine, but having to put the CD / DVD (?) each time you need to launch Radiant just to compile & test a map is something that prevents many dudes to play with it. I remarked this with Prey, compared to Doom 3 or Quake 4.

(SCDS_reyalP) #88

Probably will require a monster machine for ET:QW, but I’ve found the ability to run multiple clients on the same box is very handy for ET mod development.

(mortis) #89

Here’s something obvious that is often overlooked:

Please, please include verbose comments in the scripts; I loved it when there was a synopsis of each variable state in the Wolfy scripts, and cried when there was none.

Comments make it soooooooo much easier for semi-beginners like me to understand the function of each script block…

(kamikazee) #90

I know that Doom 3 stopped using script blocks and accums. It now uses functions and variables instead written in a C-like language called Doomscript. Because of this, functions and variables can use natural names and make the code easier to read. Instead of linking script blocks to entities, you just add a “call” key with it’s value pointing to the function you want to be executed. Initialization happens in the “main” function. If you want to know more about Doomscript, you can take a quick peek at Modwiki: Scripting basics.

Note though that Ifurita is writing a new series of articles named “ET:QW 4 newbies” which may be far more acurate, and that SD might have changed the script implementation. However, seeing as Doomscript is quite flexible, they could well have kept it.

(Aratta) #91

Things that come to my mind:

  • successful mod projects are essential and in the best interest of a game company

  • increasing support will finally increase revenues for the company and help them to build a good reputation on top of it

I’d say that game companies must go pro-active with their mod community. Let em know you appreciate their work. Stay in close contact with them even if it means pampering them.

Just look at TC:E. Its most likely one of most successful free total conversion mods out there. It would help getting into contact with Coroner (the main guy) and asked him if he would need something from SD. It would help to offer help to mod teams like giving them some ETQW engine code and some mod tools ahead of release for example. Would you be ready to give real support if modders need technical help? Maybe even get one of your own coders to write some specific helping script to help a mod getting around specific limitations and problems?

From inside a mod-team these things would change the world. Working on a mod that wants to excel is a pain in the ass if you are treated like the regular joe and you dont recieve any benefits for the months and years these guys are investing.
How about getting some special deals if the mod is actually just as good as the game. How about making a total conversion pay off in hard cash if it gets ueber successful?

Get pro-active and start talking to highly profilic modders, these guys are just as hard working as SD after all, unless of course you dont mean what you are implying, but that would result in a mod community is not going to be as lively as expected. Everyone can copy paste some code and do a new plasmagun effect and add CTF to a map. But making a total conversion work is a huge and complicated task that requires a lot of motivation and staying power as a company like SD that has been started out modding themselves should know.

I hope these are valid points to consider. It doesnt take a lot of observation to see why so many mods utterly fail and never make it behind a certain point. Its all about getting some of the above things straight and communicate your policy, especially to the loyal and successful modders that have proven to push the boundaries of what can be achieved.

(ayatollah) #92

There are more mods out there that I would think are more successful than TC:E…namely ETPRO! When you have 3 million plus on a mod of a free game then you must be doing something right. (Even if people don’t play the vanilla version of the game! ;))

SD have a long history of modding and supporting modders and map makers, I am sure they just about cover everything that you just said. Besides why do we need modders from outside the ET community when there are so many talented people right here.

And I have to say, yet again, it seems like someone hasn’t played W:ET or been part of its communtity.

(Aratta) #93

Sorry it should say: one of the most successful FREE total conversion that pushed the bounderies of the original engine :wink:

Well if they cover it all then why are they asking?

btw: The second part of the above quote doesnt make any sense.

(ayatollah) #94

W:ET is free. Just play it with one of the various mods out there and you will see that the community for ET:QW is there. That is not what this thread is for, this thread is a means for the developers to find out what the modding community want to help them out. The modding community is already a large number of people and to push this forward what you need is good modding tools/docs/info/etc not some “1337” modder from TC:E.

I’m not saying new people, like the guys you mention, shouldn’t come to mod on ET:QW or give advice. I am just saying that it isn’t really going to help the modding community as a whole.

(kamikazee) #95

With all respect, but wouldn’t the other mod teams benefit from this too? Wouldn’t it be discriminating other teams who haven’t proven themselves yet?

I’m for the principle “if you need something, ask for it. Just prove that you tried on your own”.
Contacting the mod teams is nearly impossible, imho. What qualifies as a mod, and what doesn’t?

(Aratta) #96

With all respect, but wouldn’t the other mod teams benefit from this too? Wouldn’t it be discriminating other teams who haven’t proven themselves yet?

I’m for the principle “if you need something, ask for it. Just prove that you tried on your own”.
Contacting the mod teams is nearly impossible, imho. What qualifies as a mod, and what doesn’t?[/quote]

Where does it state that others should not benefit from it? How can it discriminate mod teams that have not yet even formed? Who is going to complain? Also nothing what I said above indicates that other mod makers would not benefit from support. Contacting mod teams is impossible? This is a joke right? :lol:

btw I edited my orignal post a bit to make it more general in its suggestions and questions.

(kamikazee) #97

Hmmm… Ok, a lot of questions. I’ll try to answer one by one.

Sorry to take one on his own words, but that was the general idea I had after reading your post. For example:

This seems directed at proven mod teams only. So if a new team is started, right at this moment, and want info?
They are eager to start working on their mod, but the only thing they have are concept sketches, and a whole bag of ideas. Wouldn’t they deserve those “offers” too without having proven themselves by making a mod before?
My point being: where possible, keep things public. Private deals don’t help the mod community, they only help the big mods get bigger. Diversity can be a good thing, even though it means taking all the “wow I made stroyent green!”-mods on top of it.

As for that “average joe” feeling: your mod’s players will remind you all the time that you are not an average joe. Having them have fun with your “creation” and in the best case getting some donations in return is a nice benefit on it’s own. Besides, if you would be looking for a job and can showcase your quality work as a moder, why not?

It wasn’t a joke, as contacting mod-teams is impossible from a practical point of view. Take a look at the W:ET mod list and tell me which teams/guys deserve offers and which don’t.

Disclaimer: This whole post is subject to my own opinion. Please take care on subjective parts.

(Nail) #98

Who says it needs to modded at all, not giving the SD guys much credit are you ? Now you might like TC:E, that’s fine, as long as you remember that the majority of ET players don’t, we like ET. The idea that SD should go out of their way to supply your hero with extra tools is quite confounding to me, ETPro is a much more successful and far more useful mod, and ETPub and Jaymod are far more popular.

no offense, but the term fanboy comes to mind

Just look at TC:E. Its most likely one of most successful free total conversion mods out there. It would help getting into contact with Coroner
Help who ? only him

(Aratta) #99

Actually I’m not sure what you mean, there is a few vague statements between some assumptions and questions you made there. I dont feel answered.

You misinterpret my words which are not even directed at you.
Your assumptions are as you say your subjective view that I dont care about and this thread is not about discussing them. But as you seem to be in place to make verdicts…

No its directed at SD.

What if? What if? What if?

So what? They have sketches and no code. These guys need a lot more than just help from SD which has covered all the bases already…whats the problem here?

Preposterous. People who already have a working polished product are on the same level as a team who has sketches? No question that everyone deserves good tools and docs, but that is a given if SD wants a serious mod community. And again I’m not talking about adding some serverside options and tweaks to weapon damage. I’m talking about full conversion here.

There is successful mod makers and less successful mod makers. This is how it works. What matters is if the mod is going to tweak weapon stats or if the mod is going to take 2 years or more to make because its a total conversion which requires a lot more energy and know how to complete.

No one ever questioned that.

yadda yadda yadda. whats your point? That SD cant see the difference between highly popular mods and total conversions and people who change weapon stats or that they cant write emails?

(Aratta) #100

I’m talking about Quakewars not ET. You dont even know if ET players will like QW which is a totally different game. Whats the point of that statement unless you wanted to tell me that ET players are some elitist bunch that only like ET. How poignant

None of those mods is a total conversion thus its not even in direct competition with that mod. ETpro certainly deserves just as much attention if not even more. I have never questioned that. The question I was asking, do they give ETpro that attention? Are they covering all the bases like the fanboys here are suggesting?
-> What is a useful mod? Drugs are bad mkay?
I also didnt mention that SD having to supply extra tools. Actually I havent asked for tools at all. I gave suggestions on how to pamper their dedicated mod makers beyond just giving tools and sdk (which I think is a given unless they are not serious about it) and they asked for suggestions.